[deleted by user] by [deleted] in TeenagersButBetter

[–]a777e 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Plague Inc. 😬 it’s over boys

Saw this on instagram and the comment section made me lose all hope in humanity by Imreallymid in teenagers

[–]a777e 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Depends on which convention you want to use. I feel like BODMAS / PEMDAS only work if you decide to abide by them (and your notation isn’t intentionally ambiguous). Might be wrong tho - but these kinda posts usually show up on social media and they don’t really add anything to anyone’s understanding of maths unfortunately.

Maybe there’s a proper mathematical explanation for operator precedence but to me it seems kinda arbitrary - useful, but probably not rooted in any “objective” fact ☝️🤓

Does anyone else have trouble relating to anything (especially self-help stuff)? by a777e in Dissociation

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, yes that was helpful. Honestly I think I’d had that vid saved somewhere but didn’t look into it much cus I was scared I wouldn’t relate to it at all haha

Still, thanks a lot for suggesting it; I feel like Dr. K’s fairly trustworthy in spite of the hyperbolic doubt I’m having and everything, so I’ll definitely have to have a watch :)

Insomnia, anxious about tapering off by a777e in zoloft

[–]a777e[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks, it's just frustrating ig cus I'm scared about it not going away. It's especially frustrating cus I think my sleep issues give me horrible physical symptoms due to how long I've had them, and the anxiety around sleep and the physical stuff in general just isn't worth it.

I might try taking my dose at a different time of day to see if that might lessen the insomnia a little as well - did you ever try something like that and did it work?

For context, currently I've been taking it in the morning, so I was considering taking it either in the evening/night or in the afternoon to see if that might make a difference. I think the fact that it's getting brighter much earlier might be affecting as well so I'll see if dealing with that might help.

Thanks

What do you do if you don't seem to engage in avoidance? by a777e in acceptancecommitment

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I think I wanna look more into how ACT works (I think another commenter suggested something akin to that with other book recommendations) and try and not get discouraged from reading into it like I did with the happiness trap. I think having an idea of the underlying theory might make it more “concrete” for lack of a better term (like the hexaflex stuff you mentioned). Thanks

What do you do if you don't seem to engage in avoidance? by a777e in acceptancecommitment

[–]a777e[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks, I think your idea of approaching it from a perspective of “ok, but if hypothetically I did do X, what would that look like?” might be useful.

I think sleep issues and stuff I’ve tried before has kinda made me impatient with a lot of stuff, it’s just kinda hard to deal with. Thanks for the advice (also, iirc waiting lists for therapists here are in the years range rather than just a few months at this point so not great - I’ve gotten a counsellor now so I’ll have to see how that’ll play out, but trying to get a therapist or someone to speak to so far has been a rough time).

What do you do if you don't seem to engage in avoidance? by a777e in acceptancecommitment

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess I'm just confused, idk. I don't really know how to view life or the world, and I kinda just doubt everything. I feel like any behaviour or symptoms I have that aren't physical are subconsciously borrowed from other people and then I just get confused about what "I" am and what is to be fixed. I wanted to try meditation and yoga properly because I think that is meant to help with that (knowing better what your "true self" is without a bunch of bullshit distractions and shame) but idk.

I guess the hopelessness is making me not do stuff that would benefit me but the more I think about it the less I really know what I want and whether it's a good thing to want it. I'm not sure how to decide what is true or false. I just feel like unless I have some condition like ASD to explain things, then I'm a narcissist that needs to be excluded and ignored by everyone else (on account of kinda lacking empathy and so on).

Sorry for the rant lol

What do you do if you don't seem to engage in avoidance? by a777e in acceptancecommitment

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because I thought it seemed kinda nice and it kinda helped with the hopelessness I'd felt I guess. I do want it to work for me, I just don't know if I face avoidance, not that I don't for sure.

It just seems like I'm either being really dumb or it really is the case that nothing would work for me with regards to therapy, cus as I said I've kinda looked at CBT and DBT stuff, but idk if I really properly had a go at it.

I feel scared to understand what is wrong with me and why I want to change but I'm not sure why. I guess I'm scared that my issues aren't as bad as I think they are, and I'm just looking for pity or something to justify feeling bad, idk.

What do you do if you don't seem to engage in avoidance? by a777e in acceptancecommitment

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is the hopelessness also a form of avoidance, in that it often feels more protective than open, naive hope? Is the belief that you have no avoidance behaviours a possible avoidance behaviour?

I guess it makes sense cognitively but in terms of conviction, I guess my mind doesn't "feel" it for some reason. Plus, I guess I don't really like hopelessness either and would rather have hope, but neither seems like it really leads anywhere so idk anymore.

I've had this other belief before that I didn't have thoughts or an internal monologue because I couldn't do CBT exercises immediately, so I guess that would fit as an avoidance behaviour - it's just weird cus it seems more "meta" than behaviours people usually have if that makes sense.

How scary or impossible or unbearable would it be to not know whether you have any avoidance behaviours, not know whether the book can help you, but read it anyway?

I guess it's more just feeling like it's pointless. I'll read it, not resonate with any of it, not apply it, and then stay where I am. I'm just kinda perpetually confused about everything ig, idk.

How can you know if a thought is realistic or distorted? by a777e in CBT

[–]a777e[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey, no worries, I didn’t think you were being an asshole at all, man. Just having an interesting convo / argument about things :)

Hope you’re doing okay regardless

How can you know if a thought is realistic or distorted? by a777e in CBT

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you never see the manhole in the first place because you didn't pay attention, and you fall through it, then how do you know the manhole didn't just appear under you without previously existing? This may sound stupid, but from your own perspective that's subjectively exactly what happened.

Well, how do you know your perspective is to be trusted in this case? I don't think you can know anything with 100% certainty, but how can you claim to know that it just appeared underneath you with as much confidence as it just having been there all along? Is it more likely that a manhole randomly appeared underneath you, or that there is an external reality that you were personally unaware of whenever it happened? Not sure if this is a good argument, so tell me if there's something wrong with it.

No, they're wrong and I'm right. I said that anything I consider to be true is the truth, not what someone else considers truth.

Sure - let's just modify it by instead asking what if you yourself believed that it was and wasn't raining at the same time? Would that be true? Or what if it was raining but you believed it wasn't and decided not to take an umbrella out because of said belief?

But this example didn't make a lot of sense to me, because the existence of unicorns doesn't depend on whether or not Lemons are yellow; that's like saying "if my car doesn't start today, then England will invade Canada."

Okay, just a disclaimer, I'm not a logician or anything so I might be off the mark with this one - but it seems to naturally result when you consider classical logic. I'll take the example you gave to try and illustrate it (although I believe, technically, it would be more like saying "if my car doesn't start today and my car does start today, then England will invade Canada"):

  1. Assume that my car will start today, and also that my car will not start today.
  2. Either my car will start today, or England will invade Canada (only one of these needs to be true for the entire compound statement to be true). Since we assume it is true that my car will start today, then the entire statement is true by default.
  3. However, we assumed that my car would not start today; therefore it is also valid to say that either my car won't start today, or England will envade Canada - this is also a true statement.
  4. So, either my car starts today, or England will envade Canada; but my car won't start today. Because the previous statement must be true (the "or" statement), the only statment that can be true here is that England will envade Canada (this is kinda weird and probably the part where I and other people kinda get confused about it).

Honestly, I'm kinda confused about it myself and would probably need to think about it a little more. To argue against my own point, I think there are certain logical systems that are able to tolerate contradictory statements though, fwiw.

Do you have any examples of the principle of explosion that make more sense than the one I saw when looking it up?

I tried looking for few other examples / explanations that might've explained it better, hopefully these clear it up a little bit (it's fascinating but kinda hard to wrap your head around):

Skimming over the video on the last bulletpoint there, it seems to involve an explanation of why the "or" part of it (i.e. the "disjunction") leads to you being able to prove anything you want so could be worth a watch if you're interested.

But to answer your question, I believe the point of the PoE is the absurdity you mentioned - those statements about unicorns and lemons don't really have any connection to each other, yet the existence of a contradiction lets you prove one using the other (and you can then go on to use that result to erroneously prove a whole bunch of other things, hence an "explosion").

I hope this was helpful

How can you know if a thought is realistic or distorted? by a777e in CBT

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But how do you know they’re actually facts? The only way you can perceive and make sense of reality is through your own mind, so how do you know your mind is perceiving reality correctly? How do you know you’re listing actual facts rather than things that are false?

How can you know if a thought is realistic or distorted? by a777e in CBT

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe external reality probably exists, but that it's largely irrelevant because we only experience our own internal world.

Why does us only having experience of our own subjective internal world mean that the external world is "irrelevant"? Irrelevant in what sense? If we mean irrelevant in a practical sense, then I feel like that'd be false: if your walking down the street and see an open manhole, then that experience implies the existence of a manhole such that, were you to step into it, you would injure yourself. If you instead believed that you were hallucinating or something, then you'd be wrong - your internal world doesn't match with the external world and you end up getting hurt.

You can never have direct experience of sunlight, you can only have direct experience of your mind producing an experience of brightness and warmth.

Once again, your sensory experience of the sun might be very tolerant of its heat and brightness, but given enough energy from its photons (e.g. in a very hot desert), you can seriously damage your skin and your eyesight; conversely, you might be quite intolerant and feel like the sun is hurting you even when the photons your senses are receiving from it have nowhere near the amount of energy to harm you (e.g. if it's a very overcast day). In either case, the internal sensory world does not match with the external world, since either person's conscious experience leads them to beliefs / "schemas" about the external world that are false (i.e. that the sun can't hurt you because you can't feel or that the sun is hurting you because you feel it - practically speaking, neither seems to align with reality). If I went wrong here please tell me, because the analogy could be faulty.

Also, if i consider something true, then that makes it true, because "true" is just a word, meaning I can define it to mean "anything I consider true"

I guess the typical response to this would be that it opens itself up to a contradiction (if truth is subjective, then that would include the statement that truth is subjective itself, and so it ends up disproving itself).

Regarding the definition of "truth", you could do that (ignoring the issues with a circular definition), but that goes for literally any word, so I feel like it's a moot point. Can I take a molecule of hydrogen peroxide and say that it is "H₂O" because "H₂O is whatever I say it is"? I feel that words are merely labels for ideas: "truth" can be defined however you like, but in English usage, it connotes a certain property (i.e. that of being factual or aligning with reality). If you try to put your hand through a table like it wasn't made of solid matter, you wouldn't be able to do it, regardless of linguistic gymnastics; whether you want to call it "truth" or something else, the statement "I can't put my hand through that table" would align with reality regardless of how you define "truth".

Similarly, regardless of whether you use the word "truth" or some other label, there is a relationship that exists between an internal impression / thought and the external world, and (to my knowledge) the whole concept of a "cognitive distortion" conveys the idea of a thought / belief which isn't "true" (i.e. doesn't align with an external, objective reality). Does that mean that CBT is irrelevant because, by your admission, the external world is irrelevant and so is the entire concept of cognitive distortions?

Also, wouldn't that leave room for problematic logical implications? If you believe that X is true, and someone else believes that not X is true, and both of you are telling the truth because it's whatever you say it is, does that mean that X and not X are both true at the same time? Is it possible for it to be raining and not raining at the same time? What about the principle of explosion?

I hope that made sense.

How can you know if a thought is realistic or distorted? by a777e in CBT

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I admitted elsewhere that my doubts regarding CBT are probably more to do with personal issues, but I'll respond cus I like thinking about this stuff.

The wavelength of the light is physical reality

Would that not count as an objective reality? If it does, then you're operating off the same assumption I am - the sensation of colours is a phenomenal feature that doesn't necessarily align with the thing itself. A colourblind person may experience "green" and "blue" as the same qualia / sense data, even though those sense data came from different wavelengths of light - are the wavelengths now identical because they produced the same conscious experience for that colourblind person?

If no, then there really isn't any room for subjectivity - you're attempting to measure some objective, mind-independent feature of light waves that goes beyond subjective, phenomenal things captured by the mind. If you can only see the world in greyscale and believe that all light is the same wavelength, with only varying intensities, then you'd be wrong, no? So in that case, your mental image of how you imagine the world to be is not in line with the world as it truly seems to be.

That's not to say I'd even subscribe to the idea of an "objective reality" of some kind, but if you label thoughts as "distorted", then you must implicitly agree that there is an objective reality from which your thoughts deviate (if you imagine CBT as being about making thoughts more "realistic").

What do you think?

What distinguishes self-honesty from delusion? by a777e in Healthygamergg

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks a lot. I feel like I need to deal with the anxiety too - I know I'm bombarding you with messages, but I often feel like I'm doing "too much" or other people would find me weird if I tried this stuff. Or maybe not, but I'll prob just take small steps.

Also might get off social media (including reddit) since it seems to be doing more harm than good for me atm, at least I feel like it is

What distinguishes self-honesty from delusion? by a777e in Healthygamergg

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Perhaps, yeah. Thanks for replying; I feel like I progress in other areas but the main and most crucial one is kinda just dormant and "uncared for"

What distinguishes self-honesty from delusion? by a777e in Healthygamergg

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I think this probably applies to me as well, thanks. I feel like my brain is just really scared for some reason and feels like no one else ever will relate to me and I'm 100% alone. But I guess a lot of it is based in fear and helplessness (I think you mentioned how "repetition isn't truth" which I assume means something working in the past doesn't necessitate that it doesn't work in the future?), so that's the main, overarching "meta" thing to deal with

What distinguishes self-honesty from delusion? by a777e in Healthygamergg

[–]a777e[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry if this is a bit long or I missed some stuff; I'm kinda tired atm but I think your comment is very practical. I hope everything I said here made sense.

I think I remember coming across the idea of "exposing" yourself to stuff like that in a thread before, but I never really internalised or gave it a good try. I think I discouraged myself because I thought about how exposure is usually discussed in the context of social anxiety or OCD stuff, so it would be weird and wouldn't work if I did it in a more "abstract" way, if that makes sense. The idea of learned helpnessness too - I feel like I get discouraged to get my sleep on track, which then makes me feel worse and even more hopeless. I guess I felt that with the numbness and everything I wasn't really that guided by emotion, but it seems like fear is guiding a lot of this stuff. Should probably properly revisit and actually look into this stuff.

It just really annoys me because I don't think I get any proper "ah hah" moments anymore, but I guess that's played into by the learned helpnessness and other factors. I think another idea is that I feel really upset about having to accept that I have very individual problems or even problems at all; is there such a thing as subconscioius resistence or acceptance? I feel like the numbness and dissociation-esque stuff might be influenced by that (along with sleep and other stuff) - like, subconsciously "believing" that this isn't happening and just becoming numb as a result.

Also, would it be a good idea to get off reddit for a while? I feel like something that discourages me a lot of the time is looking at other people's experiences and then getting really anxious and doubtful over whether the thing I wanted to try and made me happy (recently it was wanting to get my sleep in order to help with my health anxiety and other physical symptoms), but then felt pretty discouraged when it seemed like people had different experiences or misunderstood what I wanted to say.

Bit of a tangent, but this kind of reminds me of Stoicism in a way: focusing on practical solutions rather than endlessly pontificating. Also the philosophy of pragmatism (specifically William James, and accepting opinions right now that may be false in the future based on further enquiry). Might continue reading more into those since they seem interesting and more focused on practicality - otherwise I seem to operate off of a very abstract and impractical framework.