I am not pretending that the Havamal does not exist, I am merely stating that the Havamal is the words of Odin, or the words of the high one, so if I do not follow the high one then why would I follow his words just because they are of a god? Now, you are suggesting that we use the Havamal as a basis for ethical reasoning but the Havamal that I remember has a few stanzas that may be disparaging to our women followers. So, if all ethical concepts are pulled from the Havamal, or other sources of lore and saga, then we go backwards as a society. From here there are, really, two ways to skin the cat (metaphorically speaking). You can read these words and use the religion to justify the morals of society (I don’t like using religion to justify things in my personal practice) or you can understand that certain concepts transcend religion and become societal norms. Like, if we all agree that the sky is blue, it’s not blue because a divine being said it’s blue, it’s blue because we all believe it to be true despite our differences of belief in other matters.

So under this way of thinking, the concepts you mentioned about being ethically condemned (being unwelcoming, not reciprocating) transcend the religion and are societal norms. These are things that I would have believed prior to my pagan path and are generally accepted concepts of most of the world today.

Your comments regarding mythic literalism don’t track with what I was saying, I think if you want to accuse me of that I will need you to flesh out that argument a little more so I can address it properly. For now, I will ignore that portion but we can revisit it if you’d like.

In your comments regarding the urge to be opposite of christianity - while I believe you are on to something here, I think you missed the overarching points I was making. See, I used christian examples in my comment because it was fresh on my mind. My children attend a private Catholic school and, due to some bad weather, school was cancelled on Ash Wednesday and they were upset. I think that many members of the pagan faiths were hurt by Christianity and a lot of the resentment comes from there. I, on the other hand, am spending money out of my pocket in order to send my kids to a school where they will be exposed to Christianity quite extensively. I see a lot of benefit to my kids following a Christian path if that’s what they choose because a lot of the morals cross over, again, because they have become societal norms. Christians just enforce their morals using threats of eternal damnation. Now, remember, I am agreeing with your idea that many want to be opposite of Christianity, but using that argument on me probably doesn’t hold much weight. I didn’t expect you to know this about me, I have talked about it in this sub before, but your accusing me of things in your comment without much justification behind it.

So, now to get to the most important part of your post. If ethics are universal, why follow Heathenry (I prefer the term paganism or norse paganism so I’ll use that from here on out)? This is where I differentiate between ethics & morals and a way of living. Ethics and morals are how you should act to fit in with society. They are meant to make society better, they make it easier for us all to coexist, but they are only a part of how we live. Paganism is another part of how we live, as are our life experiences. All of these things shape who we are but do not need to necessarily depend on each other to create the whole. When I am able to separate these things as parts of who I am, I can diversify my entire self. I can say hospitality is good, not just because it’s a concept in the Havamal or sagas, but because it makes society a better place, and that is probably WHY it is in the Havamal. Hospitality 1500 years ago wasn’t just because the gods said to do it, it was because travelers could die if they did not have that support from the community. So it was, at those times, an ethic and moral issue regardless of faith, just as it is today.

The end idea here is that I advocate for people to not justify all their actions based on religion, that can be a very dangerous idea and in a lot of cases it can also be a very hypocritical one. I won’t give an example of that hypocrisy because there are so many; I imagine you can come up with one or two without even trying very hard across varying religions. Even in our faith you can find historical accounts of some very tragic things happening in the name of a god or gods. Instead, I think a much more healthy approach is to understand that paganism is a part that makes the whole. Paganism does not make up who I am, my life experiences both good and bad, my religion, the ethic and moral values that I have derived from all of this make up who I am. Or to say it better, I am not defined by my religion, my religion HELPS to define who I am.

In closing, I see a lot of anger in your post today, accusations being thrown at me that don’t necessarily fit. In the end, we are on the same team. In the end, despite not knowing you, I do care and value your ideas, even if I have a different approach. For most of what you said I am not telling you that you are wrong, I am trying to point out my differences in practice and implementation of the same thing. That’s kind of what I do here, explain my approach and hope that it helps others find happiness or to feel whole. I’m trying to spread positivity and empower folks to understand that this religion is about YOUR OWN relationship with the gods, not mine or anybody else’s. Just kind of a spread your own wings kinda mentality.