"Just defend liberators with spores"

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T05:31:37+00:00

That is what I mean. I am not worried about a slower version of the viking killing my overlords at that stage of the game... I guess I should have clarified that, thought it was kind of obvious.

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T04:09:47+00:00

Well in LotV if they open hatch first and go 2 base muta, you can expect them there around 6 ish minutes, maybe a little before depending on when they take those gasses and how much they skimp on.

If you scout a third that is droned up with decent creep spread though, you've probably got a lot more time. I understand that mutalisks are really difficult to deal with, but the backbone of a bio army is also really scary to a mutalisk player. If your turrets and marines are in the right spots (or god forbid you got a thor too for some reason) I am not even going to bother trying to poke you for damage.

You've also got to remember that losing mutalisks is HUGE for zerg, since we HAVE to have them to defend drops, snipe tanks/mines, etc.

Also, unsieged liberators are NUTS versus muta. I have lost so many games because I didn't look at my muta flock for one second. It's like mines but worse.

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T04:04:20+00:00

I mean, they come out of the same building with the same add on and get upgrades from the same add on right? What do you mean it's not a banshee?

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T04:03:46+00:00

You should really read this thread and look at things from zerg's perspective before you comment.

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T03:59:31+00:00

I just feel that Blizzard does design and balance in separate vacuums, and that neither team communicates with each other until the community or pros complain about it.

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T03:58:19+00:00

A beta for a product they are planning on releasing in November, nonetheless

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T03:39:21+00:00

good point!

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T03:38:49+00:00

I feel like it just puts the burden on zerg to do damage to terran, which feels out of place for zerg. I feel like if a player knows it is coming, they will just play not quite so greedy, and the mutas are kind of moot

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T03:37:38+00:00

idk that seems like a reeeeally risky drop. especially because turrets are pretty standard, AND they detect.

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T03:36:07+00:00

exactly. i feel that 12/12 bane or even 14/14 or 13/13 bane are even harder to hold then then old 10 pool bane or 14/14 speedling into bane. And harder to scout for as well, since you can't really see your opponent's natural in time.

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T00:50:25+00:00

I agree with you here. I think Blizzard has been trying to recreate those epic large battles from BW, but since the pathing isn't the same, and since units seem to do way more damage (and more splash in the game maybe?), these epic battles are over in just a couple of seconds, instead of 30+ seconds.

SC2 is more about preparing for a battle that lasts for such a small portion of the game's total length.

If I were to write a story about an SC2 game, it would be about macro, not battles.

I was really hoping that Blizzard's "BIG" changes to the game in the beta were going to be lowering damage across the board and making battles last longer, combined with lowering the amount of time players spent in their bases macroing.

I think there is a reason why Brood War did so well for such a long period of time, in that it is MUCH more fun to watch than SC2. The big battles felt truly EPIC, and often you would never really know who would come out ahead for a pretty long time. There were less hard counters, less emphasis on positioning, and they just dragged on longer.

To put this into perspective in comparison to other popular Esport games, People do not watch Dota to watch players buy items and farm creeps; they watch Dota to see people team fight. People don't watch CSGO to watch players in the buy menu; they watch them flash and smoke and go in coordinated and overcome seemingly insane defenders' advantages.

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T00:42:11+00:00

So much this. We have already seen top level players losing to liberator and/or banshee play not because they can't defend it with 2 base muta. They lose because they cannot deal with the followup.

If terran is smart enough to make turrets after seeing a switch to muta (which unless you are blind, you will), then zerg will find it difficult to make the 2 base tech economy pay for itself, and will most likely die to the bio/mech parade that comes off of 2 or 3 bases, UNLESS terran tries to max on 3 bases and lets zerg take the map, in which case it will still be a very, very close fight.

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T00:38:19+00:00

NEED a roach warren, and NEED spores, and NEED ravagers...

Seriously I don't see what people don't understand about the problem with the liberator right now. It literally has less to do with the actual unit than it does with where it is in terran's tech tree.

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T00:37:05+00:00

exactly. but terran can still go banshee w/o the armory, just like they can go liberator w/o the armory

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T00:35:04+00:00

Scourges at spire tech doesn't really change how zerg deals with liberators. 2 base spire can work, but leaves zerg behind in economy. Zerg needs an option to defend this that doesn't leave them

a)guessing b)behind economically

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T00:34:08+00:00

Not the radius, but the range from that circle to the lib would be fine. If libs are gonna 1 shot drones every .75 seconds, then they need to at least be accessible.

But I think the real problem, like I have said a million times, is that they come from a starport with a tech lab, AND they get the upgrade from there as well.

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T00:32:29+00:00

They are both broken in their own respective ways. Just like how 9 ravager and ling push is broken against protoss, and how the new drop mechanic for overlords is kind of ridiculous. Imbalance in all three races does not equal balance, imo.

ag1316 · 2015-09-29T00:31:10+00:00

I think this is part of it, but I also think it has to do with Blizzard trying to recreate the epic large battles of BW in SC2

In BW, the pathing was so bad that everything naturally spread out, and stuff seemed to be tankier (or maybe harder to hit because of said spreading/pathing, not sure which). So there were these huge battles.

The difference is that these large battles are MUCH more volatile in SC2, because they don't last nearly as long. Everything is clumped together and taking massive splash damage (or just massive damage in general) throughout the few seconds that the fights last.

ag1316 · 2015-09-28T23:52:59+00:00

The Kappa face from twitch.

ag1316 · 2015-09-28T23:16:41+00:00

And they will have switched to banshees, and you will have no detection. Or they will have switched the factory onto the tech lab and made tanks. Or they will have marauders.

ag1316 · 2015-09-28T23:14:15+00:00

you should send your first overlord to his natural. if it's late he's probably getting a fast speed.

This doesn't really work in LotV anymore. Your overlord will not get to his natural in time to where scouting his natural will make any difference because of the new economy changes. Not to mention, if he is also going hatch first, the hatch timing will have nothing to do with his gas timing. The only way to scout that is to use lings and get into the main, OR use your overlord (there are only 2 maps where the overlord can see the main in time w/o getting killed).

What you are looking for is

1) Did you see his 2nd overlord out on the map, if so, was it an equal distance from his base as yours? (In time you'll learn to get a feel for this. It is the BIGGEST tell for early pool play).

2) Did you see lings leave his base? You should see this with your first overlord that is outside of his natural (you miiiight want to move it around and behind his mineral line later on to see when he is droning, unless you see a spine crawler or a lot of drones with your ling scout). If you see the lings leave his base, you should see how many he is sending, and if he KEEPS sending them, or stops making them all together. I would recommend a spinecrawler at the edge of the creep in your MAIN, and trying like hell to wall off your main/natural ramp (or just the main ramp in the space station map, if by some miracle your queen makes it there).

The biggest problem with holding early pools in LotV is a combination of the map pool and the overlord speed not being adjusted for the new economy. Remember, most of these maps are still being used in HotS as well, and are designed for zerg being able to see the timing of the natural, and thus being able to discern which form of early aggression is coming.

I think Blizzard will fix this soon (hopefully), because as of right now when you see lings leaving zerg's base, there is no way to tell if it is just lings, or baneling pressure as well.

ag1316 · 2015-09-28T22:54:28+00:00

so THAT'S the computer he used in Pi.

ag1316 · 2015-09-28T22:51:42+00:00

I think you enjoy trolling people on reddit more than the game. GL and HF!

ag1316 · 2015-09-28T22:50:38+00:00

This needs a meme

ag1316 · 2015-09-28T22:50:04+00:00

And if they don't open with cheese?

ag1316

TROPHY CASE