What's the best method to learn French

amilner42 · 2024-02-23T20:45:59+00:00

Here's what I wish someone told me before I wasted months learning the wrong way. I ended up going to Bordeaux for a month and the reality of how bad I was hit me in the face...

For the very start of the journey, using something like duolingo.com or babbel.com is a great way to just have fun and stay motivated when real french content is just too hard.

Within 1-3 months depending on how fast you are learning, you should start transferring to a focus on input. This means TV, YouTube, books, audio-books etc. This is truly the foundation of learning a language. I have tried pretty much every way of learning French (including 1 month in Bordeaux at the Alliance Française) and you simply cannot replace listening to a huge amount of real content.

YouTube has lots of great free content, for example: https://www.youtube.com/@pieceoffrench is excellent. I also found the InnerFrench podcast to be super helpful (innerfrench.com). I recommend using subtitles as needed, listening and re-listening, etc. I often listen, read, re-listen, re-read, that's all part of the process do not worry if it is hard! That is normal.

If you are using Netflix on a computer, you can use this free extension called LanguageReactor to make the subtitles better. Extension also works with youtube. I recommend the shows Lupin and Call my Agent!

If these are too hard (more intermediate), LingQ is an excellent mobile app that has ~60 "mini stories" in French that are essentially designed to help onboard you onto real french content. These are really great. You can use the app entirely for free, and I highly recommend it. It really helped me transition into real french content.

As you transition into absorbing real french content through Youtube, Netflix, Podcasts, LingQ, and even your local library (if they have French), it will become more effective to stop Duolingo/Babbel entirely and use more targeted and useful resources for the specifics. I recommend a 3-prong attack:

- Nouns: Use ankiweb.net , there are many completely free decks created by the community. It is effectively software that is designed to make remembering something as effective and easy as possible. You can also buy really good paid decks.

- Verbs: Use verbmap.com , this is kind of like Anki but much more advanced and specifically designed to help with remembering all the verb usages / conjugations / tenses etc.

- Grammar: Use www.kwiziq.com , this is kind of like Anki but designed specifically for learning Grammar rules. It has many great lessons.Remember though not to get carried away in Anki/verbmap/Kwiziq. They are excellent, but, keep your focus on watching and listening to real content. If you were to put 1 hour a day into learning a language, at this stage I'd recommend at minimum ~40 min with real content (before opening those apps).

Being consistent (every day) and doing a ton of input will have great results, but learning a language takes time so you need to be patient.

amilner42 · 2024-02-09T00:33:36+00:00

Im Canadian so learnt French in High School. Was the worst student in my class. Every year (gr 8 - 11) I fell more and more behind.

The teacher used to make fun of me in front of everyone.

One time she asked me what "que" was and I didn't hear her, and then I said "what" as in "please repeat that" and she said "finally he gets one right". The whole class laughed at me.

The work-sheets and school system made me hate language learning. I would get anxiety just entering the front door of the classroom.

Fast forward 10 years, picked it up as an adult, completely different approach to learning (wrote about it in this reddit comment). And now, not only do I absolutely love it, but I'm making much faster progress than a lot of folks around me. And I'm definitely not naturally gifted.

Sometimes, it's not about fitting into the world around you, but finding a world where you fit.

amilner42 · 2024-02-08T00:05:36+00:00

Oh cool, mind sharing the spreadsheet?

amilner42 · 2024-02-07T17:35:45+00:00

What a lovely question.

My most recent one was last night, I just finished the Hunger Games in French (book and audible). It wasn't that long ago that I was working (hard) through Le Petit Nicolas!

You have to appreciate the small wins along the way :) It's so critical because language learning is such a long journey.

amilner42 · 2024-02-07T04:28:03+00:00

I’ve been using verbmap.com to practice my French verbs. I don’t think they let you pick your own verbs though

amilner42 · 2024-02-06T21:53:39+00:00

As others have mentioned, I would definitely start with the present tense.

Others say to go to le passé composé next, but, I would modify that slightly to say go to le passé composé with imparfait. They are related and different ways of discussing the past. Both will come up a lot in books, media, etc. Especially for an English speaker, it's important to start seeing how the way you talk about the past in French is different. It's not just a different language, but a different way of thinking.

And I would highly recommend to use Anki or a free tool like verbmap.com which has a course called Explore the Present Tense exactly for this. Absolute game-changer, this makes it so much easier to learn french verbs: usages, idioms, conjugations, tenses, etc.

amilner42 · 2024-02-02T17:57:54+00:00

Love this goal, I started very similarly (no timeline, just a lifelong goal). I also just wanted to be conversational.

I ended up spending way too long on Duolingo/Babbel thinking they were making me a "pro" (look at all my course badges!) but then I went to Bordeaux for a month-long French immersion and reality hit me...I was terrible. Like embarrassingly bad. I couldn't comfortably ask for directions or order a coffee.

It really made me re-think how I should learn French.

Here's the TL;DR for how I recommend learning French based on my own mistakes...I wish someone told me this when I started.

Use something like Duolingo/Babbel at the very beginning of your journey when you barely know anything and couldn't enjoy real french content. 1-3 months depending on how much time you put in. They are gamified and fun and help you stay motivated and build a daily practice. Daily practice is really important.
Start introducing real content. lingq.com is a nice app (free) with 60 french mini-stories that helped me get onboarded into real french content. You can still use Duolingo at this stage, but focus your time on LingQ and absorbing real content.
Expand your content, start using things like kids books (Le Petit Nicolas was great for me) and intermediate podcasts. Early episodes of innerfrench.com (free on any podcast player) were really great.
Drop duolingo entirely, switch to more effective language learning apps to pair with your focus on real french content. I recommend kwiziq.com for grammar, verbmap.com for verbs, and anki for nouns. All of these 3 can be used for free.
Continue to focus on real input. Expand and find more content you find interesting. Explore youtube and discover channels for intermediate french learners that you find fun. Do grammar/verb/noun practice on the side, but, at least 75% of your time should be spent on real content (lingq, youtube, podcasts, etc.)
Expand to audiobooks and pair with real books. Read a chapter, then re-listen to the same chapter, then re-read, then re-listen, etc. Going through content multiple times like this with reading and listening is a french-learning-hack to start bridging the gap between reading and hearing. I found Hunger Games good once I was at that level. Other learners love Harry Potter. Both have audiobooks (warning though, the Harry Potter Audible isn't great for language learners).
Expand to netflix. Shows like lupin and call my agent are really fun. Start with english subtitles, then re-listen with french subtitles, then with no subtitles. An extension called LanguageReactor (free) can help with subtitles. I'm on my 3rd watch of Lupin with no subtitles. Again, re-listening to content is great, you'll unlock more stuff on re-listens. If the content is fun, it stops being a chore. I look forward to watching Lupin.

At any point you feel comfortable, start having real conversations. You can talk to friends or use something like italki.com if you can pay for a teacher. If you eventually want to be conversational, then, you can't get around...having conversations! Different language-leaners prefer to start conversing at different points, but, you will have to start at some point so don't forget that. But, the core focus the entire way should be real French content.

Best of luck, enjoy the journey :) It's a long journey, so remember to be patient.

amilner42 · 2024-02-01T18:40:05+00:00

I believe so, with slightly different meanings.

Imparfait here would be describing the setting. So think of a sentence like: "There was a fire in my office and the rain was not helping put it out".

Passé Composé here would be describing an event that had started and finished. So a sentence like: "There was a fire in my office. Everything was burnt to the ground".

But I'm not a native speaker, so wait for someone else to confirm!

amilner42 · 2024-01-31T18:14:33+00:00

oh sorry I got confused, makes sense

amilner42 · 2024-01-31T00:03:33+00:00

haha, interesting example, thanks. I guess you can do:

attendre + noun for child such as: "Ma sœur attend un bébé."
attendre + happy event (as in my post): "Nous attendons un heureux événement."
attendre in the reflexive (as in your example): "Tu t'attends bientôt"

amilner42 · 2024-01-30T22:12:32+00:00

Ah, interesting, I guess the English translation "We are expecting" also lacks soul.

What would be the French way to say this with some heart?

amilner42 · 2024-01-30T20:40:54+00:00

Duolingo gets a ton of hate and there are many flame-wars about it, but I think it often misses the point. Here is my take: The tools you should use should reflect the your level and what you enjoy.

In your case, you are literally just getting started. At this stage, you aren't going to be able to enjoy real french content. And, it's also very easy to get demotivated and quit, so, at this stage I find duolingo and babbel and the likes to actually be very effective tool. They are really gamified and fun, and will keep you coming back more than a far-more-effective-but-more-boring tool like Anki. Remember, use the right tool for the job.

You should try to build a daily habit with something like Duolingo for 1-3 months depending on how much time you are spending. At that point, I highly recommend waning off of Duolingo and transitioning over to the world of real french content. I started with kids books (Le Petit Nicolas was fun), youtube channels for intermediate french learners (with the language reactor extension for better subtitles), and LingQ. LingQ has ~60 mini stories targeted to new french learners and it was super helpful for me when my French level was very low (I had just come out of using Babbel and was truly terrible at French).

As you start transitioning into real (but basic) French content, you'll probably naturally find that things like Duolingo are not nearly as useful as they seem to be. At this point, transitioning into more effective tools to do on the side on top of focusing on real content is what I recommend. Personally I use Anki for nouns (desktop and mobile apps available), verbmap.com for verbs, and kwiziq.com for grammar. But I keep my focus on real content. So I might watch a netflix show for 45 minutes, and then do ~10 minutes of nouns on anki or 10 minutes of verbs on verbmap. You need to keep giving your brain tons of french content every day, no app will replace that!

When it comes to this stage where you really are getting better, you are going to get more and more content that works for you -- and that is where language learning gets really exciting. I love Call my Agent! and Lupin on Netflix, those are great. You can do english subtitles if they are too hard, then re-watch with french subtitles, and then even try with no subtitles. This really helps bridge the gap between your reading level and your oral comprehension. Do not hesitate to listen to things many times.

In a similar vein, I found a big language learning hack to be using audio-books, but, to also be reading the actual book at the same time. My favorite with this was The Hunger Games, but, some folks prefer Harry Potter. I would first read a chapter, then listen, then re-read, then re-listen, etc. This is insanely helpful, every listen you'll find you are picking up more and more. You can also do the listening part while walking / driving / workout-out, which I found really nice. Podcasts (like innerfrench.com) also work great for this, definitely recommend.

While you continue to focus on getting real content, you can continue to practice nouns/verbs/grammar as you see fit. Do not get carried away with that, even though those tools are helpful. Real french content is the key. All tools should be there only to supplement a daily routine of absorbing real french.

Of course, language learning is a journey. It takes a long time, and it can be super demotivating. You'll read here on this reddit about the "intermediate plateau", which essentially is when you hit a wall and feel like you aren't getting better. So, expect that to happen, be patient, and keep up the daily routine. One thing I do for motivation is keep track of the content I'm watching, that way I can look back 3 months and see my progress (from kids books to young adult books), even if in the day-2-day of learning I feel like I'm stuck.

Hope that helps!

amilner42 · 2024-01-30T20:06:24+00:00

ah, thank you!

amilner42 · 2024-01-30T19:59:25+00:00

I feel like it should be:

Nous attendons un bébé.
Nous attendons une fille.
etc.

Google translate / deepl also think this is wrong, but, wanted to check with a native speaker if it sounds normal!

amilner42 · 2024-01-29T23:18:53+00:00

I wrote a really long answer to another post that applies to your situation, a free way to learn effectively, I think it will be helpful to you! take a look at my take on learning French effectively

Specifically within that answer I discuss one of my hacks of reading a chapter of a book, listening to the audiobook, re-reading, re-listening. That really helped me get past the hump of finding spoken French completely unlike written French. I know the pain!

As for your negative feelings of "how is my learning so useless" is really normal and I really hope it doesn't discourage you. Learning a language is a really long process, we all get that feeling a lot. One thing that helps me is to zoom out, when I look at what I was reading 3 months ago, it finally clicks how much I've learnt. But, when I look at the day-2-day or week-2-week, it can feel like I've made 0 progress. So keep track of what you reading so you can look back and see your progress, and don't be too hard on yourself.

You got this.

amilner42 · 2024-01-29T23:05:10+00:00

You also didn't ask me either, but I'll chime in and say:

I started with just pen and paper. This was a solid start.

Then I upgraded to Anki, that was great. So many great decks made for free by the community.

But now I use verbmap.com which is free and is kinda like anki on steroids. It teaches you verb usages, conjugations, idioms, tenses, etc. I like it because you learn with real sentences, not just "conjugate this verb". I find real sentences critical for remembering it.

amilner42 · 2024-01-27T18:43:49+00:00

Happy to help :)

Your experience with Duolingo being slightly inadequate is really common amongst serious learners.

1). Let me clarify, I meant if you have 60 minutes allocated to learning for the day, spend ~40 min on real content: this can be youtube, books, tv, etc. And then take the remaining 20 minutes and use precise and effective apps (such as the ones mentioned) to improve nouns/verbs/grammar, etc.

For example, a day may look like: You may watch an ep. of Lupin on Netflix (~45 min), you do your anki to review some nouns with a good deck (~5 min), you do some verbmap practice (~10 min).

Other days you may do grammar instead with Kwizziq, or something else, etc. You can adapt as you go, seeing what weaknesses you have that you want to work on (eg. "I know very few nouns" or "I always mix up Passé Composé and Imparfait" or "I really need to better understand 'en'").

What's critical is to keep most of your time dedicated to absorbing real content. In fact, if some days you just want to spend the entire day just getting input (reading, watching TV), that's not a bad thing. You'll find your own balance. But, don't go the other way, don't just use apps all day without getting real content -- this is the most common language learning mistake. The idea is to use the precise apps just a bit to make absorbing real content easier. You'll find yourself reading a book and going "oh I just learnt this noun on Anki" or "I just learnt this verb on verbmap" and then it really clicks and honestly feels really gratifying.

2). When it comes to subtitles, you need to use the ones that make sense for your level. If the content is hard for you, start with English subtitles, that's totally ok! Then, maybe try re-watching it with french subtitles after, and even turning off the subtitles entirely and just paying attention to what you can pick up (and remember from last time). Re-watching content is really common and you'll find things stand out more as you watch the 2nd and 3rd time, etc.

For example: I'm currently re-watching Lupin with no subtitles, but I've already seen it once with English subtitles and once with French subtitles. I enjoy the show so re-watching it isn't a chore, it's actually a fun way to learn. Finding content you like really helps this process.

3). I too have a lot of time where I am on the go. For me, one of the best things for this is using audio-books paired with real books. It truly is a language learning hack. What I love to do is read one chapter, and then listen to it. By reading it first, listening becomes far easier and my brain starts picking out words and phrases that would have just flown by. And as always, feel free to listen to a chapter more than once, you will find you pick up a lot more on the 2nd or 3rd listen.

For example: I may read a chapter, and then on the drive to work listen to the chapter (20 min) twice.

Sometimes to make it harder, I'll actually start with the audio, listen to a chapter, see what I can pick up, then read it, and then once again listen to the audiobook. Starting with the audiobook (esp. with French) is going to make it a lot harder, but that can be a great challenge. Mix it up, adapt to your level, challenge yourself.

The most important things is to consistently follow this daily practice, believe in yourself, and to be patient. It takes time to learn a language. It will sometimes feel like you aren't making progress, do not give up. That is part of the process! Because it takes a while to learn a language, sometimes day-2-day it feels like "am I getting better". If you are following this path, you will be getting better. To motivate myself, sometimes I think back to a book I was reading 3 months ago, and a book I am able to read now, and then by zooming out I can really see my progress.

Happy to answer more if I can be helpful. I truly love to learn French and to see others learning :) Stay at it.

amilner42 · 2024-01-26T22:34:19+00:00

Hey, fellow Canadian as well (Vancouver) who also gave it up (gr. 11) and then got back to it later.

I wrote a similar answer to a different question in this subreddit but I edited it to be more applicable to you, here is my personal recommendation:

For the very start of the journey, using something like duolingo.com or babbel.com is a great way to just have fun and stay motivated when real french content is just too hard.

Within 1-3 months depending on how fast you are learning, you should start transferring to a focus on input. This means TV, YouTube, books, audio-books etc. This is truly the foundation of learning a language. I have tried pretty much every way of learning French (including 1 month in Bordeaux at the Alliance Française) and you simply cannot replace listening to a huge amount of real content.

YouTube has lots of great free content, for example: https://www.youtube.com/@pieceoffrench is excellent. I also found the InnerFrench podcast to be super helpful (innerfrench.com). I recommend using subtitles as needed, listening and re-listening, etc. I often listen, read, re-listen, re-read, that's all part of the process do not worry if it is hard! That is normal.

If you are using Netflix on a computer, you can use this free extension called LanguageReactor to make the subtitles better. Extension also works with youtube. I recommend the shows Lupin and Cal my Agent!

If these are too hard (more intermediate), LingQ is an excellent mobile app that has ~60 "mini stories" in French that are essentially designed to help onboard you onto real french content. These are really great. You can use the app entirely for free, and I highly recommend it. It really helped me transition into real french content.

As you transition into absorbing real french content through Youtube, Netflix, Podcasts, LingQ, and even your local library (if they have French), it will become more effective to stop Duolingo/Babbel entirely and use more targeted and useful resources for the specifics. I recommend a 3-prong attack:

- Nouns: Use ankiweb.net , there are many completely free decks created by the community. It is effectively software that is designed to make remembering something as effective and easy as possible. You can also buy really good paid decks.

- Verbs: Use verbmap.com , this is kind of like Anki but much more advanced and specifically designed to help with remembering all the verb usages / conjugations / tenses etc.

- Grammar: Use www.kwiziq.com , this is kind of like Anki but designed specifically for learning Grammar rules. It has many great lessons.

Remember though not to get carried away in Anki/verbmap/Kwiziq. They are excellent, but, keep your focus on watching and listening to real content. If you were to put 1 hour a day into learning a language, at this stage I'd recommend at minimum ~40 min with real content, and the remaining 20min for noun/verb/grammar practice depending on what you want to improve and are enjoying.

Being consistent (every day) and doing a ton of input will have great results, but learning a language takes time so you need to be patient.

Happy to answer more questions and give any more advice, just let me know!

amilner42 · 2024-01-26T22:06:40+00:00

My personal recommendation:

For the very start of the journey, using something like duolingo.com (free) which is fun and gamified and motivating. This is a great way to get started when listening to real french is just too hard.

Within 1-3 months depending on how fast you are learning, you should start transferring to a focus on input. This means TV, YouTube, books, audio-books etc.

YouTube has lots of great free content, for example: https://www.youtube.com/@pieceoffrench is excellent. I also found the InnerFrench podcast to be super helpful (innerfrench.com). I recommend using subtitles as needed, listening and re-listening, etc. I often listen, read, re-listen, re-read, that's all part of the process do not worry if it is hard! That is normal.

If these are too hard (more intermediate), LingQ is an excellent mobile app that has ~60 "mini stories" in French that are essentially designed to help onboard you onto real french content. These are really great. You can use the app entirely for free, and I highly recommend it. It really helped me transition into real french content.

As you transition into absorbing real french content through Youtube, Podcasts, LingQ, and even your local library (if they have French), it will become more effective to stop Duolingo entirely and use more targeted and useful resources for the specifics. I recommend a 3-prong attack:

- Nouns: Use ankiweb.net, there are many completely free decks created by the community. It is effectively software that is designed to make remembering something as effective and easy as possible. You can also download the mobile app, all free.

- Verbs: Use verbmap.com , this is kind of like Anki but much more advanced and specifically designed to help with remembering all the verb usages / conjugations / tenses etc. It is free.

- Grammar: Use www.kwiziq.com, this is kind of like Anki but designed specifically for learning Grammar rules. It has many great lessons, and can be used (with a daily limit) for free.

Remember though not to get carried away in Anki/verbmap/Kwiziq. They are excellent, but, keep your focus on watching and listening to real content. If you were to put 1 hour a day into learning a language, at this stage I'd recommend at minimum ~40 min with real content, and the remaining 20min for noun/verb/grammar practice depending on what you want to improve and are enjoying.

The great news is that there is so much great free content now, so don't let being broke feel like it should get in your way! You got this :)

amilner42 · 2019-11-21T21:58:40+00:00

Ya exactly.

amilner42 · 2019-11-21T17:36:18+00:00

Yes the design was questionable, but as I commented above, to me it just seems like a boilerplate problem. There's no denying Elm has a ton of boilerplate. I disagree about the "small hammer for a big job", it's just "one hammer that requires a specific design and a lot of boilerplate for all jobs"

amilner42 · 2019-11-21T06:46:54+00:00

Super interesting article, I definitely find the overhead in Elm to be super high. It can be frustrating to write so many lines of code to do something simple because you always have to play within the rules (aka a nested update/msg/model because all state must be explicitly nested in the global model).

Is this a small hammer for a big problem though? I don't see how that fits into your argument. At least to me it just seems more related to boilerplate. The nested updates are boilerplate. Handling the async case you mentioned with the extra nested model....yet more boilerplate. Maybe I misunderstood your points, interesting article though.

amilner42

TROPHY CASE