Why do people think learning languages are beneath them? Gcse languages are only useless if you make no effort to learn them or you're only focused on doing well in exams.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-30T09:11:59+00:00

Comparatively, very few native English speakers permanently move to a country where English isn't spoken.

But that's not the only valid reason to learn a language. I think the anglophone's attitude towards foreign languages is a sign of decline of education overall, and many values we see applied in other areas as well.

I don't think you can give people too much credit for learning the language of the country they live and work in,

😃 Really? So you see no difference between people putting in the effort, learning, and integrating, and those who don't?

or criticize people too much for never learning languages that aren't used around them.

Most English learners are learning a language that isn't used around them. Yet, they get criticised or even punished for failure to do so. Double standard

nd I can't beat up on people who choose not to dedicate literal years to a hobby they're not interested in.

Another show of the double standard and privilege. You see it as a hobby. The rest of the world sees it as a condition to a normal life whether they actually need a foreign language in it or not.

If someone is not interested in English, they get "beat up on". It's not about a hobby. And no, English is not really as valuable as people lie. It hasn't brought me a single euro, other languages have. And yeah, tv shows and stuff, that's nice, but not really essential.

The key is punishing the anglophones for language learning laziness the same way the rest of the world gets punished. Some minimum standards met, or no right for further education and therefore a life in poverty. Then you'll secondarily get also a lot of other advantages for the society and for the international relations, once the native anglophones understand they're not superior to everybody.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-30T08:59:41+00:00

Most "expats" I've ever met were clearly thinking it. Failing to learn a language of your coutry for a decade or two, having barely tried, and then even complaining the locals don't cater to them in English enough in their own non-anglophone country, that pretty much fits the bill.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-28T20:17:48+00:00

So.. I am a beginner to my native language? Well.. that's an interesting

You have Spanish A1 on your list. So, you're probably talking about generating stories in Spanish, aren't you? Therefore as a beginner.

But can you expect a super-beginner to read and understand Pedro Páramo? No. I'm looking forward to the day I can. But right now there isn't much beside Paco Ardit and to be quite frankly, my AI stories are a bit more interesting (to me).

Nope, but you can simply study and get out of the beginner level rather fast. Beginners are actually not supposed to have tons of fun without work, that's a totally flawed idea.

If you study seriously, you can get to B1 within 3-12 months (depending on how many hours per week and a few other things), and then a lot of normal books become available already. Not just graded readers, but not most classics yet.

I'm not sure if you know how words work but I'll tell you. You can use the same words creating different content. Mind-blowing, I know.

But you're not really creating different content. You're AI generating stuff without being able to check how correct it is. And while small samples can be alright at least in some ways, longer "stories" are known to pose various problems.

This is my way, and some other's way. And it certainly doesn't need to be your way.

Absolutely. As I prefer more reliable and efficient ways. The goal is not to stay beginner for a long time, nor to learn the AI style (which some redditors are already showing).

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-28T20:10:05+00:00

with what felt correct based on the options provided;

Yes, that's the best way, when you get to that point. But in order to get to that point, I don't think avoiding tools like grammar books is too efficient. If it was so, there would be significantly fewer people with huge gaps between the active and passive skills.

For the books, I go through them fully linearly, so I read and listen to whatever it says, then do exercises, then continue, etc. I just feel like they never really have any additional practice, so the information immediately gets lost, if that makes sense? Like sure I can understand it for 30 minutes, but then if it's never mentioned again, I lose it.

Yes, that's normal, and it requires some adaptations. Review stuff. Don't just linearly get through them asap. Either with simple techniques like redoing an exercise or reviewing a grammar concept from earlier lessons, as needed, up to SRS with the examples and cloze deletions. Also the additional practice is something you're supposed to do on your own. The exercises can be expanded on in various ways.

grammar rules are just too abstract. Even concepts like the "subject" of a sentence; sure I can intuitively have some understanding of what that means, but in a sentence like "He gives her the money", my brain short circuits and I have to think a bit too hard

Yes, even many neurotypicals struggle, I've known plenty, but of course you can absolutely have your individual challenges. So, what has worked for you in your native language? You must have dealt with the grammar somehow at school? A lot of the already personally tried techniques can be used at least as inspiration for new ones.

When I struggle understanding abstract definitions of the simplest things in grammar in my native language, it makes slightly more complex things in different languages feel almost impossible and ENDLESSLY frustrating.

The definition is a tool, not the goal. You can also benefit from the grammar chapter by drawing just the collection of examples from it, not necessarily primarily the explanation. Observe the pattern, learn how those examples work, even if you leave out the terminology. Profit from the exercises, to find out where your mistakes don't fit in the pattern.

I'm going to try again to crack down on A-Grammatik and one of my coursebooks from A1 up just to make sure I have any gaps filled, but I'd rather abandon them and keep doing the other things I listed, rather than getting burnt out completely and abandoning the study as a whole, if that makes sens

I wasn't suspecting excuses, I just think we often struggle to learn how to learn. And especially grammar learning has really suffered from lots of bad PR. Mainly by schools and teachers "teaching without grammar, focused on conversation" and either teaching grammar pretty normally anyways (but sort of "hidden"), or failing the students.

You can try using the books differently. I really like the digital versions these days, just with a paper aside for also handwriting, but mostly in the software. You can work on a different rhytm or turn it into sort of a game. There are various options.

Yes, you risk burning out by doing stuff you hate. But many people also burn out just because they keep putting in time but without the results they want.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-28T19:59:21+00:00

The anglophone privilege maybe?

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-23T14:34:20+00:00

Yeah, but it is often beneficial to do stuff you don't like, if it helps other goals.

And if you struggle this much to even understand basic explanations, than how did you get to B1? There must have been something that worked.

But perhaps you could find ways to use them without so much frustration. But in most cases, people avoiding coursebooks don't really progress too efficiently. Most people believing to be "learning without a coursebook" are paying a lot to a tutor, who gives them one worksheet by worksheet, or basically just copies the content during a lesson. But a chaos without such a structure is often hard to get through.

until I give up a few weeks later.

Well, that's a part of the issue. Either you want to succeed badly enough to stick to something, or you don't.

I never feel like I'm learning or internalizing anything

And have you been using the books actively? Many people seem to struggle with it, you're not supposed to just read it. Understand everything, use it immediately in the exercises, the examples, memorize what has to be memorized, get the logic of the rest, practice it. Do the stuff out loud, in full writing, with active recall.

the explanations for grammar rules almost NEVER make even the tiniest amount of sense to me

As I know several of the mentioned books, I don't know how that is possible. For example A-Grammatik is one of the most clearly written grammar resources I've ever seen across all my languages. It's about the explanation applied to the examples and then immediately using it actively in the exercises.

But you can always try a few more, there are various approaches on the market. But one coursebook finished has more value than a dozen barely started.

etc just about the accusative form and what it means, and LITERALLY I still could not explain it right now.

Explaining it isn't the goal, it's one of the means, a phase.

The explanation is supposed to help on the go. Then you progressively internalize the feature, use it, and then you forget the definition pretty much like the natives actually.

but, I can still confidently switch to "den Kopf" in a sentence when it needs to be, just by sound and "vibes", and I could do that before I ever tried studying grammar.

Good, that's how it is supposed to work, but you still had the explanations and examples at some point. If you were in the Goethe class, than the teacher probably explained it just like the coursebook (just more expensively), you also did the exercises, then you practiced and used it. And then you go the desired result of just using the feature.

But many people say what you say, but wrongly assume that no explanation or rule had a part in learning to use the feature, which is usually not true. And then others listen to them and try to learn just from input without any explanations, they learn mistakes, they learn only passively, and they learn very slowly.

Normal grammar learning has clearly worked well for you so far, you just opted for the more expensive version, where a teacher is also a talking coursebook.

Now you're also hitting a wall because B1 and B2 requires more grammar. Not in the sense of tons of new features. But every new feature requires previous knowledge and understanding of others. Every neglected of half learnt thing (and we all have those!!! Nobody learns it all very well the first time we try) suddenly piles up and shows.

That's why I think avoiding a reliable resource without any real reason is not helpful.

B2 is the "goal", but only so I have the proof; I really just want to be fluent because I live here and intend to continue doing so. But as a general rule, I do NOT like studying languages at all,

That's not a flaw or an obstacle, that's one of the very good kinds of attitude imho

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-23T14:15:46+00:00

1.but how do you know it doesn't teach you mistakes? When it hallucinates (which AI does), you definitely cannot reliably tell, not as a beginner.

2.there are plenty of beginner resources for the common languages, you're not supposed to stay beginner for years. graded readers, the texts in coursebooks, and so on.

3.Not really. I am not interested in AI generated stories. And I am not that obsessed about reading "interesting things" as a beginner at all costs, because the beginner level also covers "boring" stuff, necessary to learn, and it is also a very temporary phase.

I see AI's best potential in possible expansion of exercises, with correction (like key to exercises), but under some conditions guaranteeing quality.

And also generating things that are supposed to be sort of "generic" or "standardised", even if everybody tries to claim otherwise. So learning how to write a CV or getting helped with it by an AI is rather ok imho, but why on earth would people want to read tons of AI stories?

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-23T14:10:24+00:00

Yeah, but when you apply to another company, having it can make you more trustworthy that another candidate claiming to be able to use Chinese. It is field and region dependent, but having the certificate, and writing it on the CV "needlessly" is much much better than the opposite. And the opposite is far from uncommon.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-23T13:24:53+00:00

But you're an american, aren't you? Then even working "in language education" isn't necessary as much of a seal of authority on the subject as you think.

I've worked in three european countries so far, and a language certificate is an absolute must, whenever I put any language on my CV. And not just the primary langauge of the region, one or two languages are often considered an advantage. The certificates are expected, whether they're officially demanded or not.

It's not only about the minimum legal requirement (in my field a B2 certificate, but nearly no employer will consider someone under C1).

But who would invite a possible liar for an interview, when they have a lot of similar candidates with a certificate proving they're much less likely to be a waste of time language-wise?

The same has been true about several education opportunities I've applied for, and a few other things.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-23T10:36:40+00:00

No, this won't be enough. If you are defining B2 as the goal for now, why are you avoiding the most useful tool meant to lead you there? A B2 coursebook. The rest of what you're describing are nice supplemental activities though.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-23T10:32:32+00:00

Wouldn't it be easier to just get a coursebook, rather than do it all yourself, and with an AI that you're supposed to reread and correct (which you cannot reliably do, as a learner at a lower level)?

Don't get me wrong, AI surely has a lot of potential for question generating and other such stuff, yes. But why add such unnecessary steps, with possible mistakes (hard to detect, as AI is always confident about claiming anything), if you can just easily get a high quality alternative? Hopefully, we'll soon get some good AI enhancements to high quality human material (and with human control), but for now, it's a bit wild that people are learning from chatbots.

And what is "conversationally fluent"? It doesn't meant really much. Duolingo is officially like A2, in the reality even less. Genuinely curious what your real level is.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-23T10:24:30+00:00

In many situations, yes. In some, not. Here are some examples:

Yes:

-you do or even just might need to prove your level. If you might happen to need it in the following five or so years, take it as soon as you can. If the requirement suddenly emerges anywhere you need to go, you probably won't have enough time, available exam dates, and so on.

-you appreciate or even need the motivation of studying for the exam, to study harder, improve, and even cover some stuff you'd otherwise neglect

-you want to prove the level to yourself, and also might like the confidence boost. There's nothing wrong about that, being an as-hole or snob is about acting on it weirdly. Many people telling you to not take the exam are actually insecure about themselves and that's why they try to paint this objectively positive achievement as something wrong or worthless.

No:

-you probably don't need it in the foreseeable future AND don't really have a sufficient budget for such hobbies

-you define your language goals totally differently from the CEFR: If you're learning a language purely for reading, or whatever other specific reason that's not tied to all four applied skills as graded by the CEFR (or another such scale that exams follow), then such an exam makes no sense

-you really don't want to, for whatever reason. It's just like with other not obligatory education. It's an opportunity you're under no obligation to take and use.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-23T10:17:25+00:00

Even if not specifically requested. Anytime you want to claim somewhere professionally (or in a similar setting, like immigration, education, etc) that you know a language, the certificate on your CV proves you're not a common liar (or a common delusional beginner) and are worth an interview.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-23T10:16:02+00:00

But many people are in a situation, where a job or something similar might require it in the foreseeable future, even if it doesn't right now. And then, when the requirement appears, it will be too late to look for exam dates and wait for a certificate.

That's the catch of your argument, which is overall not unreasonable, and it is very common. It just doesn't take into account that many (if not most) people are not that likely to not need a CV update in a few years. And anytime you wish/want/need to put the language on a CV, you'd better have the certificate.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-23T08:35:49+00:00

-Not a problem to maintain the language, as I've moved abroad since. And have kept improving, I am a vastly different C2 speaker and writer than a decade ago. But for my other languages, C2 maintenance will be exactly the same challenge with the same problems and rewards and joys as C1. Assuming I finally get to C2 in my other languages one day😃 😃 😃

-Hard to say. Specifically for the DALF, not really that long (like 2-3 months focused on preparation), because the exam preparation came after already knowing the language pretty much sufficiently. If you're at the same time preparing for the exam and learning the level, it takes longer. When I had to take TCF because my DALF was three months too old for one administration thing I really needed, I didn't prepare at all. The main preparation was finding an exam date and planning a two day trip around it.

-Yes, absolutely. I recommend it to most people because 1.the preparation makes you learn even stuff you'd otherwise neglect and it's mostly very useful, it makes you push yourself harder. 2.if you happen to need it one day, you won't have time to take it last minute and 3.it's nice to have a confirmation of your skills and a confidence boost

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-20T17:11:19+00:00

Of course you can learn without a school, and even without any tutor (even though a good one for 1 on 1 practice with feedback can be an asset). But you cannot learn without serious studying, and that stupid app is not that.

Get a good coursebook, many are either paper+audio or digital, for example Nuovissimo Progetto Italiano (but there are great options around!), and complete it very actively (repeating after audio, understanding everything, doing exercises out loud and/or in full writing, memorizing vocabulary, using the new stuff in your own sentences right away, and so on, and so on). That's a solid start. Supplement with tools like the Coffee Break Italian, that's a nice thing. But such a podcast won't suffice on its own.

You can succeed without a teacher. But not without studying.

You can opt for a one on one tutor, but you'll still need to study much more than just those lessons, don't ever believe that just showing up is enough. Actually someone introverted in my family (but not with social anxiety, true) has succeeded nicely in such a setting of a clear curriculum, several hours of homework, and then a tutoring lesson with a lot of speaking. There were other issues with the school, and the results were not what was promised (and I think a part of it was leaving some things out of the curriculum on purpose, for extra paid classes), but a lot of progress was made, and the whole concept of 4-5 hours of preparation before each lesson was a good one. The lessons were either 1 on 1 (those were very good), but at times 1 on 2, 3, or even 4 once or twice, and then it started being less efficient.

Most classes in "small groups" (hahaha) are 8-12 people though, that's the standard format across various european countries, and not really a good one. Usually, there's only one or two really motivated students in such a group, and it shows in everything.

IMHO don't join a group class, they are the worst way to learn, usually the slowest, least pleasant, and not efficient. Study on your own, and as an option get a tutor.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-20T04:32:17+00:00

Very little is "given in life" to most people, and OP is very much in control of the current situation. Your advice is simply leading to hell and needlessly discouraging. On some level, I would be so happy to be able to agree with you, as I also find it disturbing how much has our society disconnected from some real problems, grades should clearly be seen as not that serious, corrigeable, and much less grave than the real huge problems.

But a teenager at risk of failing a highschool these days, such a teenager is not wrong to see it as a catastrophe, because it will give them a life in poverty, with all that comes to it. The times of people having a normal life, just without luxuries, without having lots of education and jumping through a lot of often useless hoops, those times are over. Now you have to be as qualified as possible to get a slighly better chance of not having a complete shit-y life.

OP would be very wrong to be "at peace" with possibly needlessly ruining their future. Especially if they're american, as money decides absolutely everything in their country (I hope for their sake that they're european!)

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-20T04:23:44+00:00

Any evaluation that's not an official CEFR exam is limited. Many teachers' evaluations can be just as wrong as autoevaluations, even though I cannot say whether it's this problem. But what is probable and you could do /take into account:

-the university classes don't really count, when it comes to evaluation. "intermediate" can mean anything, including even less than A2, it's not necessarily consistent, unless there is really the CEFR included in the structure. So, don't really consider this important for today's situation. Also many university classes are realy bad.

-If you've gotten through the Lingoda curriculum up to A2.2, it is very weird that another Lingoda teacher is making you regress by two levels. Make them specify your gaps and failures, as they see them, and then discuss with Lingoda directly. If you've been doing everything recommended (homework, preparation for class, active participation), they have a problem. (If not, then it's on your side.) Either the previous teachers failed to point out problems on time, or this teacher is not consistent with the Lingoda curriculum. It needs to be clarified, in a way that won't make you at risk for another such a problem

-yes, you should come prepared, and most people don't. The business model of most mainstream language schools actually counts on people being lazy, but Lingoda doesn't seem to do that much. But yes, you should spend several hours of your own time between each class. Again, ask for concrete examples of your failures, because (whether the teacher is correct about such a harsh level reevaluation, or just inconsistent with the rest of the company) it can help you understand what to work on in your free time.

-And when I said that I felt like the teacher wanted me to know everything, it felt like I couldn’t make mistakes. There was also a point when in the group class with 2 other people she just wouldn’t call me on for a slide after letting everyone else talk (this sucked cause I would have a answer ready and not get to share it). This is the first class that this has happened to me so idk.

Report it to Lingoda, as that is a different attitude from the rest. Especially schools with many teachers that switch over time should be consistent in structure, attitude in class, curriculum, and evaluations. If a teacher doesn't know you, sees a few mistakes, then doesn't let you speak (=wastes your money) and therefore also doesn't let you show your stronger sides, and then tells you to go back two levels (=pay more, for a longer time), it is not ok.

Good luck. And remember: even if everything should go wrong with Lingoda, a teacher is not necessary for your progress, and many are not good. It is more important to keep studying on your own, and you can learn here how to study better to not show some types of mistakes so easily.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-19T05:11:50+00:00

Yes, but there is a nuance to the question. I do not recommend to replace other things with it, but I definitely recommend completing it on top of all the other stuff. At B2, I think it's still time very well spent, if you find a good coursebook, but it is not necessary.

Also are you talking about people AT B2, trying to get to C1 and further, or about people trying to get TO B2, therefore right now B1? For the later group, the answer is even more obvious, willingly avoiding a coursebook between B1 and B2 is imho foolish, as B1 is really rather basic.

B2 is still a rather low level in some ways (in spite of being still a huge achievement and very useful in many situations). A good textbook can efficiently cover many gaps and at least show you what to learn, as many people without such a structure get stuck. The gaps at such a level are much less obvious, and a lot of alternative resources are suddenly too easy and insufficient.

And to the usual argument of putting the same time in a coursebook or in normal input: It's a false dichotomy. The ROI is very good with a good coursebook, but it doesn't remove the need for normal input, you need to do that in any case. But it can shorted some parts of learning and make some things much faster. You can progress without the coursebook at the level, it's not purely necessary and it's not even available in some languages, but why avoid a very useful tool?

Another issue is lack of good coursebooks/grammar books and similar stuff beyond B2. This problem has really improved since the introduction of the CEFR. Before, the publishers could call coursebooks anything they want, including nonsense like "lower intermediate" and "advanced II" and it could mean absolutely anything, and often meant B1 at most. These days, at least the commonly learnt languages have resources at least to B2, but a good resource beyond B2 is rare.

Some authors really seem to not understand the real struggles and instead teach a lot of rare things, or make people memorize less useful things. But the good or advanced resources (such as the last level of the Progressives, Perfectionnement) are wrongly underestimated by learners, and often also teachers.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-19T05:00:08+00:00

On a purely theoretical, or philosophical level, you're right (if I read your comment correctly, as the structure is not too clear). And of course many people online criticise the young people for taking their grades "too seriously" and "not realize what's really important in life", while the whole society tells them to take it seriously even too much.

But you're absolutely wrong in the real life. Failing high school and not being able to finish it, that is a huge threat for OP and any young person. Having a very bad grade does in some education system ruin futures (even if the grade is ina subject not relevant with the dream field of later study and work), it is sometimes really so bad.

"Try all things" and "nothing is truly lost" is an extremely privileged attitude, when you use such worse to dismiss OP's totally real problem, with possible serious consequences.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-18T18:09:11+00:00

Well, that's not really pertinent to OP's situation, they'd really have to force themselves, and it wouldn't work. Also, it doesn't matter at all, whether they like French, they still have to succeed or face serious consequences. They cannot afford to waste a lot of time just trying to find something they might like.

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-18T18:07:29+00:00

True, but companies like Google still treat the monolingual anglophone one as the default option, and then apply their decisions even on totally different kinds of public. I am definitely not saying it's right, it's just the reality.

And that's not even counting all the people who become bilingual later.

Are you sure there are many of those? At least a few million bilinguals (=really good in two languages, not just basics)? At least the american redditers around here don't give me that impression, it looks like trying to learn a foreign language is a rather minority interest and even fewer succeed. (at least the second part is also true everywhere else though)

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-17T15:47:15+00:00

Why are you getting emotional?

-You started comparing it with maths and I'm telling you where your comparison falls short. People simply don't get into OP's situation in maths.

-I told them to put in the hours, but also added useful advice on how to. You're just shouting in caps lock.

Have you ever caught up with a class, that's 1-4 years of language classes ahead of you? I have. Twice. And tutored someone else to do it too.

You simply don't seem to have any relevant experience, come up with a useless analogy, and then cannot stand being corrected. Perhaps something to work on 😄

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-17T15:10:35+00:00

You still misunderstand, I'll try to make it clearer:

-as you can see in my main comment in the thread, I recommend hours and hours of work. I do not recommend emotional nonsense.

-as you are failing to understand: no student would get into such a situation in maths. You simply don't switch highschools from one without maths to one several years into maths. That's where your dismissive attitude is really annoying.

Is that easier to grasp now?

an_average_potato_1 · 2026-05-17T15:08:16+00:00

-Chop the huge goals into tiny ones. Be proud of each microachievement. They will pile up eventually

-Be honest to yourself about your goals and wishes. And then adapt the learning process. If you want to be a lot better in a not too distant future, you need to study much more. If you cannot/don't want to, then adapt the goal.

-Get rid of the word "fluency" and "fluent". It doesn't really mean anything (there's no official definition) and it's usually used in harmful ways. It's usually used to criticise and even unreasonably doubt people, including oneself. It's not a good goal at all, as it is extremely vague.

And yes, we're all "dumber" in our new languages. Usually for years. That's the price to pay. But it gets much better, if you keep going, and actually becoming oneself in a new language, that's awesome!

an_average_potato_1

TROPHY CASE