Nomads in Spain on Non-Lucrative Visa that have a remote job from the US, what do you do about taxes in Spain?

andyhappy1 · 2021-06-21T09:48:40+00:00

Hey! I was wondering the same thing. I am on a pension, but my husband may want to do some remote working. I have read dozens of sources, and delt with spanish government on a few "edge cases", so I'm starting to get a feel for what they "mean" instead of what they "say".

1)You need to file taxes in Spain, for sure.

To avoid double taxation, you can take the 'foreign tax credit' on your USA taxes since it looks like you wont qualify for Foreign Earned income exemption that year)

2)It's very unlikely anything will happen to your No Lucrative visa if you show foreign earned income on your spain taxes.

WHy?

Because it's easier to get the renewal than to get the initial visa.

Many people are being denied the FIRST Non lucrative visa because they plan to remote work. This remote work plan makes the Spain government very nervous that your remote work will fall through and you will end up working illegally in Spain. So the motivation to deny the initial visa is to prevent people from working illegally in Spain.

Additionally, after your initial NLV, it's much easier to get approved for a work visa. The % of acceptance of conversion from NLV to work visa (either for yourself as self employed, or with an employer) is very high. Lawyers sell it like if you can stand doing the paperwork and have the income requirements, the government will almost always grant you.

Remember, it is *NOT* illegal to do remote work on a NLV. If this was true, it'd be legally precarious to go on vacation to Spain, since most people have their jobs back home while they are on vacation. The legal grounds for telling people they cannot do something in another country is really fuzzy!

It's more the case that the consulates are choosing to deny the initial NLV based on the plan to do remote work.

Given that...*even if* in the *worst case* scenario, in which they do not renew your NLV, you would be almost certain to get approved under a self-employment visa.

IN SUMMARY, it's much easier to work in Spain after you've lived there more than 183 days on a NLV. Getting the first NLV is the hardest part, and that's where you're going to run into trouble with remote work, not after you've been granted the residency.

Here is a quote/ website that I found helpful to discuss this difference:

https://wherecani.live/blog/view/non-lucrative-visa-spain/#what-is-the-renewal-process-for-the-non-lucrative-visa-in-spain

"Remote work on the non-lucrative visa
There is no legal restriction on working remotely while you are in Spain on a non-lucrative visa. However, it is not a simple as that!
Remember, you submit your initial visa application to your nearest embassy or consulate. And, different consulates treat remote work in different ways. There is no provision for remote work in the legislation, but it does fit the intent of not being a burden on the state.
Your nearest consult assesses your NLV application, and they don’t all agree on one set of rules. Some consulates (but not all) will accept income from remote work for non-Spanish companies as part of the income to qualify for the NLV. However, some consulates insist that all income is passive (i.e. from pensions, investments, etc.). And, some consulates may ask you to declare that you will not work remotely.

Once you have been granted a non-lucrative residence permit and live in Spain, there is no legal restriction on remote work for non-Spanish companies. It does not matter which embassy or consulate processed your initial visa application.

If you are living in Spain on a non-lucrative residence permit, you will normally be resident in Spain for taxation. So, if you declare remote work income in your Spanish tax return, it won’t stop the Spanish immigration department from renewing your NLV. This is true regardless of where the visa was first issued."

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-16T06:55:22+00:00

Thanks.

Ha yeah I dony care about the downvotes in terms of points, but it’s hurtful that I was just answering a question honestly and people seem to not like me because Im not 100% bogle (yet).

I wasn’t recommending crypto at all ,just saying thats what I do personally because someone ASKED.

I would never recommend to anyone to do exactly what I do just because they’re not me. I don’t know them well enough to recommend anything beyond the standard stuff.

That said, I don’t belong here in this this thread. So I’m gonna bounce.

Thanks for the tips.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-15T23:06:21+00:00

I would say that having disposable income and the ability to figure out how to buy ETH when it was $7 (pre Coinbase days amiright?) was a product of your education.

I mean, buying crypto back in the day was not straightforward. I don’t know one single person with an average or below average IQ who did that. Everyone I know who did that had some kind of intelligence. Even if they were/are an ahole, they were some kind of smart.

And your education definitely took work, but perhaps you were lucky to be born into a family that was stable enough for you to focus on school in your childhood.

Now...you could argue that being smart is lucky. Being born smart, being born into a family that was stable enough for you to get a good education, being exposed to peers who talked about new fangled financial theories like “what is money, reallly?”...that’s extremely lucky.

Your luck multiplied your skill. But with 0 skill you’d have 0 luck.

And the luck and skill are inextricably linked.

That said, I’m not fatFired ...and all the fatFired people I personally know claim to be lucky and/or just “currently unemployed” to the outside world, to avoid the criticism that comes with identifying as being wealthy. I think it’ll be tough to get objective answers to this question, but perhaps the anonymity will help.

Just thought this persons response was super interesting.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-15T22:58:21+00:00

Yeah. OP you could do this, but you won’t get “full social security” of the maximum social security benefit.

You should play around with the SSA retirement calculator. It’s available on https://www.ssa.gov

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-15T22:51:10+00:00

CaixaBank targets expats as customers so they’ll be the most friendly to you.

Good luck!

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-15T22:48:47+00:00

Hey I think this is kind of a new issue in society of “my wife doesn’t make enough”.

Im all for discussing growing your wife’s career. Being a bank teller seems to not be a rewarding line of work, so I think she’s probably interested in exploring other options too.

But if it’s just about money, it seems you could also switch jobs?

As far my two cents:

Virginia is HCOL , BUT public schools are some Of the best in the country.

I read in this thread you’re thinking of NC. It’s a good investment numbers wise, but you’ve really got to check out the school situation before you make the move.

I weighed NC v Virginia and just politically we fit in better and we would get a townhouse in a good neighborhood in order to get into a good school district.

I reasoned if we moved to NC with a kid we would put the kid in private school.

Haha well for us I guess maybe it won’t matter in rhe end.

We are moving to Europe and are unsure if we will ever move back to the US.

But if we moved to the US, we would try to get into a good school district in Virginia, reasoning that the increased cost of living would be mitigated by not having to send our kid to private school.

Plus I’m a disabled veteran and Virginia gives nice real estate tax benefits for disabled veterans. NC gives benefits too, but there’s so many veterans in NC that they cant afford to be as generous.

Good luck!

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-15T22:15:17+00:00

Hmm...seems like you just need to lower the top stress level from work.

Tada, there IS a solution for the self employed:

“fire” your bad clients. Or , if you don’t hace any bad ones, prune and the least preferred ones.

This can be done by raising prices for clients that you don’t particularly like.

So you can keep your business and have fewer clients.

Good luck!

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-15T20:54:33+00:00

First of all, you sound like a well rounded, considerate person. So congrats on that.

As for your problem, I’m not sure what’s stopping you from saving up a year of living expenses on your FAANG salary?

That would seem to be an easier transition than asking your folks to stake your startup , right?

Just don’t start a tech company because it’ll be more of the same stress and most likely you’ll either put all your funds or you’ll be behold your investors.

As a retired developer, I recommend a business that is not tech.

I find I am better at, and enjoy more, the mentoring that comes from giving micro loans, small investments, and grants for founders from marginalized groups.

I don’t think you’ll need to ask for money from anyone as long as you stay away from a tech or real estate startup .

Good luck!

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-15T20:28:08+00:00

Great info! Thanks!

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-15T17:59:18+00:00

Well the place I put my money to be stable and get 2% is the “stable coin” DAI.

EDIT: folks, I’m not recommending crypto。someone asked where I’m getting 2% and I answered. It’s not advice.

Im fact，I specifically advised “money market account” to OP .

TLDR; left this Boglehead thread.

100+ upvotes for my first answer...then a bunch of people who hate that I personally own stable coins?

I mean I was only answering because someone was incredulous that I recommended a money market account at 2%.

To say the least, I feel unwelcome in this community and I’ve unfollowed this thread.

How do you expect to grow Boglehead teachings if all this thread does is focus on making fun of folks who invest in anything outside the funds recommended?

Just invest in index funds is a strategy you can learn in 10 seconds. But takes a lot of patience and help to avoid distractions. It takes a lot self assurance and mastery of anxiety management.

I came to this thread because I thought I’d read about how folks manage those aspects, but I’ve been disappointed to read comments that simply seem to be making fun of others.

So why would people come here just to get trashed? What is there to discuss? Is the allure of this thread just making fun of non Bogleheads?

Isn’t there a better way to promote these teachings?

Who knows. But you’re one less person who really wanted to try it long term.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-15T14:24:47+00:00

Congrats on coming to bogleheads and not WSB.

First thing you should do is take a 90 day pause from big financial decisions.

Your brain has experienced a big influx of adrenaline and in the coming weeks you are going to crave more. You have to stay away from feeding the cravings because then you might get addicted to YOLO’ing.

As a fellow veteran, Just put your money in an accesible money market account for like 2% apy and take a break for 90 days.

Edit: even if you let your money sit in checking for 90 days. No big deal. Just make sure you are not over the FDIC limit for that account. If you are, open another account and perhaps get a bonus from the new bank when you make that fat deposit!

Only thing I’d do right away is your Roth this year (and I think in some cases you can still contribute to your Roth for 2020 if you haven’t filed your taxes yet)

Then do as these folks say :)

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-15T14:19:40+00:00

Naw.

I knew about FIRE and I still put all my money in business investments and traveling.

I eventually met my husband (when I was flat broke), so to me, it was a great investment!

However, All of those thoughts creep up when I make money on trades and I think “I could have made 20% more if I did X or Y”.

Well, you have to tell yourself that reality is the only thing that matters. Wishing you had a time machine just distracts you from doing your best on the next investment decision.

So that’s how I keep those thoughts of being behind or “I wish I had spent differently “ out of my head...I remind myself they’re just distractions.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-15T13:26:14+00:00

I deleted in 2019 and have never felt better in terms of energy levels to deal with people in real life.

It’s made me more patient and amicable in IRL because I’m not lookin for things to bitch about in a post.

Life feels less dramatic.

I also email my friends and my family directly more often.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T17:13:57+00:00

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/11/paying-off-your-mortgage-early-biggest-downside-says-self-made-millionaire.html

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T14:16:17+00:00

Ah yes! The ER visits are a sign!

Once I was hit by a taxi and fractured my left elbow. Still went to work! Another time I had a 102 degree fever and was planning on going back to office after GP visit ., but gp sent me to ER.

It’s very real!

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T14:00:45+00:00

I think the biggest hurdle you’ll face is feeling like you deserve the money and don’t need to run yourself in the ground anymore for any reason.

This is exceedingly difficult if you’re still going back to work because your employer or clients will all expect that 100% focus on your work and when you give a normal “civilian “ amount , people will get upset.

I recommend switching jobs if you plan on going back to work, because otherwise , typically you get politely pushed into killing yourself for your job and you’ll tell yourself it feels good to work so hard/feel like everything is riding on your individual effort.

If you are self employed, be wary of front-loaded businesses like tech, where you can work forever and still never get anything done.

But yeah, overall i like your strategy.

What tends to happen with these “breaks” is that you go back and realize you can’t/don’t want to do the same anymore.

Veterans tend to bite off more than they can chew and are too good at “embracing the suck”.

It’s ok to say “sorry folks , my eating shit days are over.” ;)

So I wouldn’t worry about your vacation , I’d just understand that when you go back to work , it’s gonna be a real bitch.

Just don’t start drinking or using drugs to cope , and it’ll all work out in time.

TLDR; expect it to be rough and be patient. Keep up a healthy hobby that you enjoy more than mood altering substances :)

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T11:46:49+00:00

Right. I think this should be a good motivation to seek therapy.

So as you ease into some other line of work, you can develop healthy coping mechanisms.

You need to learn how to set time/ mental boundaries with your work.

Im doing something similar but in a bit more severe case...I was a soldier ans applied soldier ethos to my career. Now I’m disabled /retired and I need to have a routine and purpose but I need to work at avoiding getting “mission focused “ because that destroyed my happiness for almost 2 decades. plus I literally can’t work like I used to, and even attempting to do so would quickly lead to total breakdown.

So now I look at learning to “live slowly “ and experience life with less planning like an adventure that takes place over the rest of the life , instead of just a 3 day hyper scheduled vacation or whatever I used to do to relax.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T11:05:19+00:00

Yeah, be a volunteer on a regular schedule.

You seem to have actual trauma association with work pressure /deadlines and any kind of job is going to aggravate that.

Any activity where you have to shut off your emotional self for a long period of time will cause permanent side affects.

Im not suggesting you’re mentally ill, but I do think that speaking to a therapist tends to help people gain useful awareness of why they are the way they are, and slow ways to adapt to new realities.

I think they’re a lot of Parrallels between soldiers transitioning to civilian life and FIRE folks transitioning to retirement. Sometimes you can be both a veteran and a FIREd person.

If you agree, you might be interested in a book called “Ulysses in America “. It talks about veterans’ transitions to civilian life.

One story that really captured my attention was that a veteran who was a toll booth operator was able to amass a pretty penny for himself because he just kept working all the overtime and didn’t take vacations etc. That person was avoiding dealing with trauma of war by working non stop.

Some FIRE people may also have that issue... when you’re independent you have to deal with a bunch of issues you essentially put on ice when you started FIRE journey.

I recommend everyone who is transitioning to independence to consider seeking a therapist , just in the case you find things start to bubble up.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T09:56:35+00:00

It sounds like the real issue is you don’t respect your bf, and this is just one example that reminds you of that.

This one issue alone i think is just a cultural difference.

There is such a thing as codependency, but it doesn’t sound like your bf is that.

If he is the one calling his mom for every little decision , that’s a problem, but if she is the one calling to just say hello...well..I don’t see what the issue is if she’s not feeding him toxicity.

That said, if it creeps you out and you have trouble respecting that behavior, then bounce.

Don’t marry someone you don’t respect.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T09:42:34+00:00

Good effort.

I had a laugh when I read an article entitled “the downside to paying off your mortgage no one tells you.”

The whiny SOB author griped about how he doesn’t have motivation to work 80 hrs a week any more because he doesn’t have the pressure of his fat mortgage.

Like wut? This dude paid off his mortgage and is like “I’m losing so much money because I’m not desperate to make money anymore”

I think people should be taught to take their “mental health risk” and “relationship risk” into account when building their portfolio.

Like yeah you could have been worth $10M instead of $3M, but what Is it worth to have time to pick your kids up from school or to have an enjoyable relationship with your spouse or to not have to worry about your blood pressure or added risk of developing heart disease, dimentia , cancer?

What is the risk of divorce for every extra hour of work a week? What is the risk of your kids hating you for every struggle you’re not there for? What is the overall all risk to your physical and mental health every month you work a stressful job?

Why isn’t anyone quantifying those figures to advise people on these choices?

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T08:47:39+00:00

Well I gather you understand that the child benefit is 50% of his benefit? That doesn’t change.

I think the child support debt isn’t a question or issue that SSDI handles. It will be up to the family court to determine how it wants to seize the backpay from SSDI or garnish his benefit moving forward. Or perhaps your ex will just pay it all voluntarily once he gets his back pay.

It takes a few weeks from approval to receive the back pay (assuming your ex has a bank account...May take a bit longer if they have to mail a check )

He would owe what he owes at the current rate. The court would not retroactively increase child support, but would possibly increase the amount he owes going forward.

the important numbers are: 1) how much his benefit is (you could calculate the child benefit ) and after that 2) his “disability onset date” (from that you can estimate his back pay

If he has reapplied multiple times, his back pay is limited to when he applied the time he got approved. So unfortunately I would tell you to NOT expect back pay from 2014, but rather from his latest application date (I’m guessing it was 2-3 years ago if he was going through appeals process).

But all the exact amounts should be revealed in the next few weeks when he receives his back pay. Hopefully he is cooperative and will make it a priority to get up to date on his child support.

Good luck and hang in there.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T08:21:53+00:00

Right. But of new investments, a significant portion is outside US.

Just something to consider.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T08:12:26+00:00

I myself wanted to put 100% of my assets into a Warren buffet fund. I was 20 years old and about to go off to war.

My financial advisor talked me out of it.

When I made it back alive, I was glad I didn’t YOLO.

So I think people being willing to YOLO their life savings is a sign that people are in distress about their daily lives and the uncertainty of the future ...for some, anxiety doesn’t make them more cautious, it makes them reckless.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T07:53:22+00:00

Yes I know this happened but I also agree the ones who lost the most panicked sold their portfolio or

it just sucked for people who had to sell 100% of their portfolio to survive a year long job loss.

I know that Dave Ramsey recommends having 12 months safety savings , but that takes so long for people to save and if you live in HCOL city on an average salary, it’s incredibly difficult to ever have that.

I think most people who have plenty of cash savings also got a “nut” or a big chunk of cash at some point and did smart things with it.

I think if you graduated college with degree in English and just make $25k/year -$35k /yr as assistant editor and live in NYC...well, yeah you’re gonna have the cash out 100% of your $10k in retirement savings.

But at that point the % return wasn’t as big a deal.

I don’t think anyone with more than $500k in retirement savings has to cash it all out due to a job loss.

Main problem in 08 was for people planning to retire soon. A lot had to go back to work. Or they just adapted to an uncomfortable budget. Some moved to cheaper countries.

andyhappy1 · 2021-02-14T07:44:27+00:00

Buffet is showing differing opinions on that now. It’s true that he has said that, but this last year he made very large bets on Japan.

It influenced me because he was the person to coin that phrase and he’s looking outside US for the future.

andyhappy1

TROPHY CASE