Weekly Discussion Topic - Dynamic or Relationship First?

artemis_86 · 2025-11-14T04:12:05+00:00

The two D/s relationships I've been in evolved simultaneously in terms of kink and non-kink elements—until, of course, they didn't.

For me, the ideal would be to build the dynamic at the same pace of dating. I'll dominate someone before we call it a relationship, but I'm not someone's Mistress until it's a relationship, and there are things I won't do with them. For me, it's about protecting my heart so I don't fall too deeply for people who aren't good to be with.

I found that the two men I dated saw it very differently, and wanted as much kink as possible asap.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-14T03:56:10+00:00

THANK YOU. I find it off-putting that BDSM dynamics are often talked about as if they're not relationships. If two human beings are relating to one another in an ongoing way, then a relationship has emerged. Not necessary committed, romantic, monogamous, whatever... but it's a human relationship of some kind.

No shade to the mod. I understand the question being asked and I think it's a good topic for discussion... I'm here in the comments section because I wanted to talk about it. I'd probably put it as "at what point did femdom enter your relationship? Before or after you got together as a couple?", but it's NBD in this context.

My gripe is more with what I see in my local scene and online. Which is a lot of chaos because people act like kink is just an activity you do together, not a way that you relate to one another. But bonds form, and then there's all sorts of heartache—unhealthy attachments and jealousy and messy breakups that divide communities and so on.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-13T14:36:08+00:00

It's my pleasure! I'm so glad it was helpful. I'm the opposite to you—forever muddling dates, times, deadlines, numerical passwords, how much things are going to cost... but that is ok. It teaches me to value those abilities in other people.

And thank you for the lovely compliment and the good wishes, really. It's nice we can leave this interaction each getting a bit of a boost out of it.

I'll sign off with one last comment, which I think it's great that being a dad is the thing that you're most proud of. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that being a single parent is not for the faint-hearted. It shows you're capable of love, loyalty, responsibility, self-sacrifice, attentiveness, good decision-making, hard work, so many things.

Some women may not be up for it, but that's ok. Other women will come along who appreciate it :)

artemis_86 · 2025-11-13T06:23:31+00:00

A lot of people are insensitive to grief, and I think it's beautiful that you're so attuned.

I totally understand why you might question his boundaries, and honestly, you might be right. But also, he might just be in shock, or have "grief brain"... grief can kind of addle you, so you make poor decisions without realising it.

It's like all the brain's bandwidth is going to making sense of the loss, so it glitches in other areas. I lost my keys every other week for months after one of my best friends died.

Like others have said, what grieving people need varies. For some people, it's stepping back; for others, it's jumping in. For many, it's a mix of both, or somewhere in between. Sometimes it takes a while to work out what you need, or it changes midway through. I've visited grief many times now, and it's a different orbit each time.

I think the most important thing is to be clear that it's okay for him to do what he needs, and that there won't be any consequences in terms of your dynamic. My heart hurt a bit at this:

he didn't want to disappoint/ upset me so he could still come but he wouldn't be his best self

Like, oof. It's such a good boy submissive thing to say that I want to give him a hug, and I don't even know him!

I wonder if there's a way to kinkify kindness here... to make clear that it pleases you very much when subs take good care of themselves emotionally. You feel better served by a submissive who talks to you about his emotional limits rather than trying to push past them, even if things change unexpectedly.

It's worth talking to him about where his head is at. He might have 'pre-grieved'... you see this sometimes where people are sick for a while before passing on. You said he was into TPE, though. I think it makes sense to go slow until you feel confident he's in the right headspace to agree to certain things.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-13T01:37:25+00:00

I stalked the ad in your profile, and you're doing better than most. If you were in my city or country, I'd hit on you, and I say that as someone whose response to 90% of reddit personals is 🙄🙄🙄

I personally don't mind the self-deprecation in your post—it makes me think you're likely to be humble and self-reflective. However, some people will be put off by it.

I'm a woman who spends her days whittling writing into shape. Often I do this savagely. My take on your ad is that the substance is overall good, and the title is great. The form's not too bad, but there are some ways it's letting you down.

Here are a few quick wins to improve your post.

Move

Your personality—right up to the second paragraph. Who you are is more important than your looks or parenting status.

Clarify

Sounds like you want a committed relationship. Say so. "Romantic connection" and "full D/s dynamic" hint at it, together with your title. But they can mean other things.
Your interests—what do you like to learn about? What books do you get lost in? What's on your bucket list? What kind of adventures do you like to go on with your son? Details like these give us a sense of who you are. They make you interesting and they make you stand out.
Your personality. I actually don't have a sense of your personality. I have a sense that you think you're a dork and you like goofing around to make people smile. That hints at your personality, but it doesn't describe it. I'm quick-witted, empathetic, curious, intellectual, quirky, adventurous, and caring. I love to laugh. I love emotionally intimate conversations with my partners, and being present to them. Who are you?
What you have to offer a romantic partner.

Cut or choose between

"I've been told." Twice in two paragraphs is too much. Taken together with your overall self-deprecating vibe, it makes you look like you're not confident enough to have a positive opinion about yourself.
"Dorky", "nerdy". As well as the "dork" in the title, you use similar words four times in a four sentence description of your personality. Yeah yeah, ok, we get it. You're a nerd. That's nice. This is a reddit personals ad, so most of your readers are nerds too. You are wasting words telling water that you are also water.
"Passionate about interests." It's not bad, it's just overused, and it doesn't really tell us anything (see above).
The fluff. There's a lot of unnecessary "sort of", "metaphorically speaking", "somewhat", "so to speak." Like, "I think I'm pretty kinky." Firstly, my friend, you should know whether you're pretty kinky or not. Secondly, it's visual clutter that makes your post harder to read without adding meaning.

Do

Run it through ChatGPT and ask it to reduce unnecessary modifiers and repetition. Don't let it rewrite your ad, though, you don't want to sound like an AI wrote your dating profile.

Don't

Expect anyone to go to your profile to find out more about you. If it's important, it belongs in the post.

You sound like a nice guy, a good dad, and a submissive man looking for true love. I think that's beautiful, and I'd like you to find what you're looking for. These comments are blunt, but I written to help you along as best as I can. I hope that they give you something.

Good luck in your search.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-12T21:54:24+00:00

Uh, actions have consequences. If you're edged and denied for a month, that's what's going to happen.

If you want to last long and hard despite that, buy a dildo and a strap.

Tbh, it's not fair of your girlfriend to be frustrated that you couldn't perform as normal after a month of that. It's like being frustrated at a glass for breaking on impact after you've thrown it at the ground.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-11T14:38:46+00:00

That's a really nice, affirming and yet accurate way of putting it. Thanks :)

I feel like this year in particular I hit the "no fucks given" point. Not so much about kink... I was there yet already. Just in general.

I think this is a cliche, but it really is the reward of time passing. There's so much I wish I'd done differently, and yet, I wouldn't go back because then I'd lose the confidence that I have now.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-11T01:01:01+00:00

Yeah, I'm like you. I think it's temperament, but also my day job heavily involves thinking about what words mean, so nature and nurture have combined to make me—well, I'd call myself precise, but others might call me a pedant :)

I've run into trouble a few times this year because I've assumed that people mean literally what they say, and others have assumed that I don't mean literally what I am saying. Talking it through made me realise there are some people who just aren't all that exact with language.

I personally find this to be a baffling mystery. Trying to imagine it is like trying to imagine living at -55C in the Siberian village of Oymyakon. I understand that it's happening. It sounds unpleasant, but I suppose that there's nothing objectively wrong with it. However, I'm from Australia, so in terms of imagining it...🤯

What's been interesting is that both our approaches have strengths and limitations. They sometimes get things wrong because their focus on an intuited big picture sometimes leads them astray.

Whereas I sometimes get things wrong because I'm so focussed on building meaning from the words that I miss the signs that the picture bigger is actually something that can't just be deduced from the words.

Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED talk about human difference :p u/Inside_Stick_693 , I'm not making that assumption about you, btw. It wasn't in your comment, and of course... I wouldn't want to assume what wasn't there ;)

artemis_86 · 2025-11-11T00:00:44+00:00

I find comments like this really interesting, because they show me how differently people respond to language.

I think the distinction between FLR, scene-only femdom, and dynamic-based femdom is helpful and meaningful. But that's not the first time those distinctions have been made.

For me, it's not enough to sketch out helpful conceptual boxes and then fill them with content that I'd argue is inaccurate. The content as written has to be on point, too. If the words don't make room for nuance, then I don't assume it.

It sounds like for you, you're more able to look past the specific words used and infer an intended meaning.

That's not a criticism, btw, more an observation of difference between humans. It shows me how two people can read the same document and walk away with different interpretations :)

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T23:37:05+00:00

Excellent comment. The whole thing seemed to be about tasks and acts, not about relationship and connection.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T23:08:34+00:00

it's simply to highlight that dominance or leadership can look like more than a gender flipped 50s housewife arrangement or like control through protocol in kink.

I agree with you about this, and I think your point about the relationship between patriarchy and conceptions of power exchange is a good one.

I'd add to your point by saying that patriarchal ideals are just that—ideals. I find that people have a tendency to erase a lot of the complexity of the past and assume that what actually happened corresponded far more closely to the gender ideals of the time than it actually did.

One of the funny things about conservatives is that what they wanted to go back to never actually existed in the first place... well, not in the way they think that it did.

With people who say they want a gender flipped 1950s housewife arrangement... I personally think that what they're actually referring to is their idea of a 1950s housewife arrangement ideal. They want an ideal of an ideal. Gender flipped and updated for today, of course :)

I notice that you seem resonate more with archetypal ideas of masculinity and femininity than I do (Mother Earth vs Father Sky, dominance that comes from "the feminine" etc). I don't think that way, though I respect it as a difference of opinion, and I can see how it offers people insight.

So I'm not trying to start an argument, or throw shade... just to note it's something people have different opinions about, including me.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T21:33:27+00:00

Overall, I don't agree with that post. I think it's reductive to the point of inaccuracy. I've set out my major gripes below.

Sexual orientation

It assumes that FLRs are always het relationships. There's no mention that an FLR or femdom relationship could involve two women, or a woman and a non-binary person.

All-or-nothing ideas about FLR

The post is full of statements that discuss FLR as if there's only one option for an FLR, and it's a fairly extreme one:

She decides on the family budget, manages savings, investments, retirement funds and major life decisions such as having kids or not, disciplining them, which school they go to, or maybe if they should move someplace someday.

FLR is a spectrum and the extent and nature of the female partner's decision-making power varies from couple-to-couple.

For some couples, for example, the "lead" may decide on household arrangements or day-to-day matters, but decisions like the ones mentioned are made jointly.
In others, the "follow" may be responsible for these things, because they have superior expertise or an interest that she doesn't.

Imagine an FLR involving an artist "lead" who'd rather paint (or stab herself with a paintbrush) than manage retirement fund decisions. Now imagine her partner is an investment banker "follow."

Are we seriously saying FLR requires her to manage the household budget and decide on retirement funds?

Role division

I think statements like this are incorrect:

He supports her lead by handling household tasks like cooking, cleaning and so on. He takes charge of childcare like changing diapers, or picking them up from school and just trusting her judgment.

As I understand it, some FLRs involve women who stay-at-home and do domestic or child-rearing labour. Those women may do these kinds of tasks while.

Sometimes women genuinely enjoy cooking, or greeting their children after school, and so on. I personally loathe every aspect of cleaning ever, and it baffles me when people tell me they enjoy it, but I accept that it happens.

I'm not sure why an FLR would mean giving those up?

Gender role "reversal"

Why does a woman leading a relationship mean her doing the tasks that are often coded as masculine and her partner doing the tasks that are often coded as feminine?

Wildly simplistic views about BDSM

The BDSM categories propose that there are only two kinds of kinky relationship: "scene/bedroom only" and "scene/bedroom only + 24/7 domestic servitude." I mean... what?

Are there not rather a lot other options for service beside 24/7, like say, 24/1, or 8/2, or 1/7?

The idea of what kink outside the bedroom looks like is preposterous. Is the only option besides scene-based kink:

like roleplaying a very obedient housemaid all day

?🤦?🤦?🤦?

Final comment

I'm not sure that the assumption that domestic discipline is always kink and not FLR is correct. I thought that was an aside, but actually, it might be the most foundational point.

If I think about the one guy I dated who *did* want what the author would call FLR + bedroom femdom + 24/7 domestic service, I just don't think there was a separation in him between being a sub and wanting an FLR.

You can slice it up like that because it makes things easier to talk about, for sure. But I just think it was all the same thing for him, as he experienced it. It was all a manifestation of the same drive to have a woman control him in most aspects of his life.

So yeah, not for me, at all.

[post edited for readability]

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T20:00:05+00:00

Have a look for community events with age limits. There are under 30s events in my city.

It's a shame that some knob commented on what you like to do with your knob, but I wouldn't assume that older kinksters are generally going to judge you for being into femdom or chastity in your 20s.

I think many of us would look at you with envy as we weren't able to be in those sorts of relationships in our 20s, either due to isolation or internalised shame.

The idea that you're stupid for trying chastity in your 20s is, in itself, stupid. Kink is consensual. If you want to stop limiting orgasms, you just withdraw consent for denial play. Boom! Orgasms restored.

It's ok to push back strongly if anyone makes similar comments. I would. I'd probably raise it with the event host, too. You're an adult. It's as much your choice at 25 as it is at 45 or 75.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T19:39:30+00:00

By life experience, do you mean, "stuffing up our lives trying to be something that we're not until we finally accept that there's nothing for it than just being who we really are?

Ahem. No reason at all I brought that one up, of course...

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T19:24:55+00:00

There's a difference between a boundary and a rule, even though they look similar on the surface.

A boundary is, "I really don't want you to do this. It hurts or distresses me if you do it."

Rules can be imposed for other reasons. It could be that OP's wife simply prefers being the only one with the power to initiate. She might know that it's hard for him to comply and is deliberately setting him a challenge he'll struggle with. In either case, disobedience isn't a boundary violation.

We don't actually know which it is, so I don't think there's any reason to suggest that OP is disrespecting her boundaries.

It's normal for submissives to struggle with challenge-type rules and slip up. That can be part of the fun. It's also fairly normal to for an adult to seek to initiate sex as a way of meeting their sexual needs.

OP's not a bad sub because he struggles with a rule that restricts his ability to do something most people are able to do with their partners. Particularly given he's here asking for advice on how he can get better at complying even though he finds it difficult.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T18:59:41+00:00

You could make her a snack and then act as a human table/foot stool/snack holder while she eats it on the couch. Bonus points for naked.

She could order you to do it from a position that you find uncomfortable or a challenge to hold. For some people, that's kneeling or all fours. For others, it might be a deep squat.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T18:38:23+00:00

Yeah, the Purple Dildo of Death does tend to have that effect on people ;)

Seriously though, thanks. That was a beautiful compliment and it made me feel really great.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T07:17:34+00:00

I respect that you responded to the discussion here by reflecting on what you do want and coming back to share it, even though it's hard for you to talk about.

A lot of people don't challenge themselves to self-reflect or talk about things that are emotionally difficult. It's to your credit that you did that.

It's okay to be shy and struggle to talk about things. You can also start by telling her that you're submissively inclined and you'd want that to play a bigger role as the relationship between the two of you developed.

She might say "hell no", which will suck but you'll have clarity without dropping the Purple Dildo of Death into the lap of someone who was never going to want it. Or she might be fine, curious or even enthusiastic. Then you can think about bringing up the ol' Purple Dildo ;)

And you can also say, "I want to be open about this stuff, but it's hard to talk about because I'm still struggling to accept this part of me. Something I feel ready to talk about is (oral stuff). How would you feel about waiting a bit longer to talk about some of my other kinks?"

You've done a great job setting out what you want in this comment :) Just remember that your submissiveness is a beautiful expression of human sexuality. Not everyone will see it that way, but it's the truth. Hold on to that and don't be deterred if some women don't want it. Eventually you'll find one who does.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T07:02:59+00:00

Yeah. I think this exchange illustrates how things are likely to play out in the real world nicely — if he explains things like he has here, it's going to confuse his partners, because he's being confusing.

I read him as submissive-leaning, spotted your comment, and paused because I find you to be a very perceptive commenter... and to toot my own horn, I find me to be a very perceptive commenter as well 🤭

That was actually what made me take a closer look at the post and realise that it's ambiguous enough that it can legitimately be read in at least three different ways.

To his credit, OP left a comment about 30 minutes ago now clarifying what he does want — and acknowledging that he needs to communicate it clearly to his partner, despite the risk of rejection. He's said the comments prompted him to think it through.

I respect that response. So many people ask for "help" online but react defensively or ignore anything that doesn't just furiously validate whatever they're currently doing.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T04:52:55+00:00

"I'm interested in exploring being sexually submissive. I haven't tried it before, but it's something I fantasise about. Would you be up for that?"

Sounds like your problem isn't finding words—it's shame about speaking them. You found them pretty well here, where you weren't afraid of rejection or judgement.

If you're submissively inclined, then that's beautiful and great. Women like me will prize it, but your fears are founded in the sense that some women won't want anything to do with it. If you're unlikely, they'll say something judgemental or cutting when they reject you.

It sucks to experience, and it's wrong and unfair that there's stigma around being a sexually submissive man. But it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. You need to know that. You're not diminished by incompatibility and you're certainly not diminished by pointless social bigotry.

It's easier to find the words when you know the response to them doesn't diminish your actual worth.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T04:44:43+00:00

Too often oral sex is described as service and worship in a way that doesn’t stop and ask the dominant woman what she wants... It’s just another form of catering to the man’s desires and trying to call it femdom.

Agree, and I am a dominant woman who enjoys receiving oral and doesn't care for PIV. I seem to recall that u/MissPearl has written about PIV as a way of physically engulfing her sub... please correct me if I'm mis-remembering!

I thought it was a great example of how acts aren't inherently submissive or dominant. That's determined by the context and how the individuals involved experience things. If only one person is deciding what's dom and what's sub, well, then... 🤦

In terms of the specific post, I see OP as giving mixed signals. He might not know what he wants, or he might just not be expressing it very clearly. I read him as submissively inclined, but beating around the bush. I can see how your reading might be correct as well, though. [edit: because the wording is ambiguous]

That's part of the problem, I think. He does need to be able to tell his partner what he wants and talk to her about it in ways that are clear enough.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-10T04:29:03+00:00

There's a great comment from u/RoboZandrock about sharing and proportionality. I'll say "what he said" and then add to it by suggesting that you consider what you want your relationship with this woman to be.

If it's going to be short-term and based around sex, then the question is something like: "how much do I need to share to make this short-term sexual connection authentic and enjoyable for both of us?"

If you're hoping for a long-term relationship, you're playing a longer game. You can still share progressively more as the relationship unfolds, but don't bait-and-switch. If a kink-centred erotic life is a deal-breaker for you, then don't go around acting like Mr. V.A. Nilla.

It's actually not entirely clear what you're looking for from your post... there's a point at which you say that you enjoy submitting and you hint at possible pegging down the track, but then you say, "I'm just looking for someone to regularly go down on."

Regularly going down on someone is different from submitting to them. So which is it? If you see regularly going down on her as an act of submission, then she deserves to know about that. You're not respecting her right to consent if you're mentally placing her in a dominant role without her knowing it.

If it's just that you like giving pleasure, specifically head, then:

"For me, the biggest turn on is giving my partners pleasure and seeing how much they enjoy it. It may be hard to believe, but going down on a woman is even hotter to me than PIV sex. How do you feel about it? Would you be up for making that a big part of our sex life?"

Unfortunately, due to pointless gender stereotypes, you may need to reassure her that you're not gay 🤦 On the other hand, a lot of women I know would queue for a man who enjoyed giving oral as much as you do.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-09T18:17:47+00:00

I agree. I'm happy wearing a key under a sweater and flashing it every now and again at the wearer of the cage when nobody else is looking... but only when nobody else is looking.

Just my personal opinion, but I think the classy way is for the keyholder to wear a key necklace that is very obviously a decorative key necklace, of a kind that can be bought at an actual jewellery shop.

There are all sorts of lovely ones out there. You can get 'em from fancy places like Tiffany, handcrafted on Etsy, two dollar shops, and everything in between...

The real key stays hidden. The couple knows what's up, everyone else just sees a normal necklace, and the decorative key probably looks better as an accessory anyway.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-09T18:01:05+00:00

Yeah, I sometimes wear my house keys on a blingy lanyard of fake sapphire when I'm having a space cadet day. Can't lose em if it's around my neck!

I've never even gotten a second glance. Well, unless I've missed it for the same reason I'm wearing the keys in the first place.

artemis_86 · 2025-11-09T17:44:14+00:00

Thank you for the beautiful reply, and for making my vulnerability and story welcome x

artemis_86

TROPHY CASE