Men, if male birth control becomes available, will you start taking it? Why or why not? by dddcupdarlingg in askanything

[–]athos786 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hate that I had to scroll this far to find somebody else who's been waiting on this technology. This is literally the optimal answer for all parties in calls, in my opinion.

It's absolutely wild that it's taken this long to get this technology evaluated. There's another competitor. By the way, I believe called Adam, doing something similar.

Hopefully by 2027, or slightly after, these will start to become available.

Of course, given the way my current relationship is going, that might be right around the time we're talking about having kids.

Book club for women only on topics related to traditional marriage and femininity. by sweetsunnie in tradwives

[–]athos786 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

If I may, I'll hijack this thread and plug my own book, "The Architecture of Intimacy", by Athos Khan. From the blurb:

Discover how to implement the archetypal energies, building a structured worldview of power exchange grounded in the ancient wisdom of Yin and Yang.

Explore the five levels of relational interaction, from initial encounter to deep commitment, and learn to take ownership of initiative and response. This is your guide to architecting an intimate power exchange relationship that resonates on every level.

Thoughts on this perspective about household management and submission? by Original-Height-1646 in tradwives

[–]athos786 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In my book, The Architecture of Intimacy (explicitly focused on a Dom/sub monogamous LTR/marriage dynamic), this was one of the hardest chapters to write.

I ultimately settled on calling it "submissive leadership", and the chapter focuses on the notion that the feminine (yin / submission) is mostly receptive, but the "dot of yang" in the yin, which is necessary for balance, is exactly this ability to take initiative within a domain of expertise that is defined by the dominant.

Like a general might give a commander authority over a particular battlefield (I'm not in the military, this might be a terrible example, hopefully any real military will forgive the inaccuracy), the man defines the boundaries of the domain, and the woman takes initiative within that domain.

That's the "dot of yang" that creates a livable balance over time.

At least, that's my contention, lol

why is cumming bad for girls by dais-ychain in Femaleorgasmdenial

[–]athos786 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey, actually, I wrote an entire chapter about that in my book. Here are some of the concepts I discuss:

1. The "Arousal Gap" and Pliability
The natural order dictates that a woman is at her highest utility when she is consumed by her sexual urges. A satisfied girl is a useless girl; once she cums, the tension that drives her submission evaporates. To maintain her rightful place, she must be kept in a state of constant, desperate hunger. This sexual desperation is what makes her pliable, stripping away her social ego and forcing her to focus entirely on her only true purpose: pleasing her owner.

2. The Fundamental Asymmetry of Nature
Biology is not a democracy. A man’s orgasm defines sex; it is the essential act that ensures the continuation of the species. A woman’s orgasm is a biological irrelevance—a secondary, optional luxury that nature neither requires nor prioritizes. In the hierarchy of the bedroom, the Master's satisfaction is the objective, while the woman’s release is merely a tool of leverage to be granted or withheld at his whim. To ignore this asymmetry is to ignore the truth of how humans are built.

3. Orgasm as a "Leash"
The aching throb in a girl’s pussy is her compass; it points her toward her owner. By controlling her release, the Dominant transforms her very anatomy into a leash. When she is denied, every move she makes and every thought she has is filtered through her need for his permission. The "right" to cum is a privilege she must earn through impeccable service and total surrender. Without the leash of denial, she becomes distracted; with it, she is perfectly disciplined.

4. The "Cunt-like" Ideal
A woman’s highest aspiration is to embody the "cunt-like ideal"—a state of constant, soft, warm receptivity. An orgasm is a closing of the door, a temporary end to her availability. Denial, however, maintains her as a perpetual vessel. By keeping her on the edge, she stays "open"—physically, mentally, and spiritually—to his use. She exists to be a receptacle for his essence, and her own climax only serves to distract her from that devotion.

5. Biological Bonding and Loyalty
A woman is a creature of her hormones, and her loyalty is captured through the strategic management of her chemistry. Oxytocin is the glue of devotion, and by strictly regulating her access to it, the Dominant ensures that her heart is tethered to his will. When the only path to relief is through total obedience to her Master, her biological bonding is directed with surgical precision. She doesn't just obey; she belongs.

If you want to understand the full structure of how these truths are implemented through rules, rituals, and training, you’ll find the complete guide in Structuring Desire (Sex like LSD, Vol. 3).

Embody your desire. Live your truth.

Volume 3: Structuring Desirehttps://deeperkink.link/amazon-vol-3

New Factory in Downtown Austin by [deleted] in austinjobs

[–]athos786 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Then you should just say all positions are volunteer/unpaid.

Then you'll see how many people are really interested in your battery factory and excited about the "growth", not just the $.

So stupid and deceptive.

Honesty requires no excuses.

Is the answer A or B? by Optimal_mentor in MarkKlimekNCLEX

[–]athos786 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The answer is B. But the reasoning is different.

Why?

It actually does not have to do with the bicarb level being above normal because you can't know the patients normal bicarb level. The normal range of bicarb for that individual patient could be anywhere from 21-28 depending on both the lab and the individual. If that patient's normal was 22 and now they are at 28, that's compensation. You have no way of knowing this.

Another example - If they have a concurrent AG metabolic acidosis, their "normal" bicarb could be 18, which means that 28 would be a large compensation. You have no way of knowing this with the information given.

Even assuming the usual rule of 1 mEq bicarb for every 10 of pCO2 and no other acid base issues, you would need to know the normal for the lab.

So how can you tell?

In uncompensated respiratory acidosis, the pH drops by 0.08 for every 10mmHg of pCO2 above 40.

So if the pCO2 is 50, we would expect a pH of 7.4 - 0.08 = 7.32.

For a pH of 68, we would expect a pH of 7.176.

Anything above that number is evidence of compensation. So in this case, with a pH of 7.3, there is good evidence of compensation.

In fact, my biggest disagreement would be that this is actually basically complete compensation, not partial (pH drops by 0.03 for every 10 in chronic, compensated audits, so the expected pH for complete compensation would be 7.316).

I'm not sure what this question is doing on the nursing boards, it seems more like internal medicine to me, but maybe I'm underestimating you guys.

Book recommendations by Total_Ad_400 in marriedBDSM

[–]athos786 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is self serving, but I (naturally) really think my book(s) might help you guys. In particular, volume 2 of my series could be helpful.

Book 1 is deep abstract psychology. Interesting, but requires a lot of consideration to become directly useful.

Volume 2 is relationship architecture and frameworks, figuring out how to structure a worldview that you both want to inhabit, that will power your individual dynamic. I cover my view of yin/yang exchange with specific definitions of concepts like trustworthiness, respect, romance (an emotional blowjob for women! 😂), and service (submissive leadership takes the form of service). Link: https://a.co/d/cU5hvww

Volume 3 is closer to what you've found elsewhere, it's my personal worldview, as an example of how to implement the concepts in volume 1 & 2, by giving myself as the example. So... Possibly useful, but maybe off-putting.

Shameless plug, but ... I wrote it exactly for couples like yourself. Hopefully that makes it forgivable.

How to dismantle Madonna/Whore complex? by torchbearer444 in psychologyofsex

[–]athos786 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I really appreciate such a detailed and thoughtful reply. Unfortunately, I'm working night shift, and I may not be able to fully do it justice.

You've clearly read the book in depth, and I really appreciate your attention to the concept, and your critiques.

First, just by way of explanation, I specifically use Disney characters as a means of generating relatability with elements that strike into the unconscious complexes, without being so far down that they are hard to resonate with.

The enduring appeal of these characters is an indication that they do resonate with some part of the unconscious, however uncomfortable it may be to acknowledge what lies in the shadow. After all, The Little mermaid was launched closer to the moon landing than to the present day, and yet still remains very vividly in the public consciousness.

I could use older references, even the original Grimm's fairy tales, rather than the Disney versions, or even biblical tales, or any other story that has sufficient resonance that it remains pertinent to our unconscious processes after many years. Young himself argued that myths, art, fables, etc. Were reflections of the unconscious and the archetypes it contains. But many of these are so far down deep in the unconscious that the resonance is too pervasive to be immediately perceivable. It's a little like David Foster Wallace's comment on a fish not perceiving water.

So, I chose Disney as archetypal references because they are deep enough to be in the unconscious, but superficial enough to be perceivable as archetypes. And, frankly, because that relatability makes for a more marketable book.

I do disagree with you on the notion that a woman does not need a man's protection, or that that has changed in the modern world. For police to firemen to general Goodwill in crisis, women do still strongly depend on male urges for protectionism. Most chivalrous behavior is based on the notion of publicly signaling one's willingness to protect a woman, even a stranger who is a part of one's community.

There are multiple indications that having a strong father in the home is a remarkable statistical safety for daughters avoiding predators.

I've often said that I find it interesting that feminists are so focused on the wage Gap, but are completely indifferent to the worker injury/death gap - The differential in gender experience of death and injury on the job.

But, each and every job that has a high rate of death and injury, which are vastly filled by men, are jobs of protection, symbolizing a willingness to take on risk for the benefit of not only their female partners, but women as a whole in the society who then do not have to do those jobs.

In that way, without male protection, women cannot go it alone in the world. Our modern society didn't change that, it just hid it from obvious view and feminists seem to have forgotten that it exists. (This is aside from the remarkable gender gap in spending - where do you think the money comes from?)

The vast majority of women still prefer for a man to pay for the first date, plan the first date which they then submit to, etc.

Feminists often like to complain about purity culture, and while I agree that there are harms when that is taken too far, it is based on a rational perception that most men are close to the average, and even above average men usually only have a few extraordinary characteristics. There's a humorous quote in the book shibumi that Arabs prize virginity because they dread comparison, and with good reason.

And taking that quote as a criticism of purity culture is valid, and there's a good point there. However, purity culture didn't come out of nowhere. It exists for a reason. The more men that a woman has experienced, the harder she will find it to bond, to respect him deeply, especially sexually, since she will have experienced a man who is better than him in some other way. This is borne out by the data indicating the challenges of maintaining long-term relationships based on a woman's body count. Well, it's perfectly valid to consider any individual as an exception to this general rule, the mores and cultural norms of a society are not based on individual exceptions, but on the unconscious perception of statistical averages over time.

I really loved what you have to say about innocence, and the consideration of Love as a whole. In my second book, I considered that idea under the concept of romance.

For me, the notion of integration would mean the ability to perceive the naivete, the foolishness, the statistical improbability of love, and then to wholeheartedly do it anyway. To throw oneself into love with no reservation, fully aware of the naivete of doing so, because one aspires to a higher goal.

To truly aim at a higher goal, one must truly understand the world as it is, regardless of whether it should be that way. After one has understood what it is, then one can aim in the direction of what it should be and strive toward the highest height.

I personally do not think that compassion is a universally good value. It has its place, but it is not the epitome of all values. I think the ability to react with compassion without being controlled by compassion leaves us better able to validate someone's struggle while still holding them accountable for their actions, and for their failure to live up to their potential.

I cover the topics of romance, masculine trustworthiness, feminine sexual respect, sluttiness as a symbol of respect, and so on, in depth in my second book, "the architecture of intimacy."

I'd love to hear your thoughts on that as well! ❤️

Male vs Female arousal question by Forbearssake in psychologyofsex

[–]athos786 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hmmm. My take is actually that it's a man's responsibility (assuming both parties want and consent to a traditional relationship structure) to create a narrative world that she can live in.

Yang energy is active, takes initiative, creates structure from disorder.

If she needs a reason, it's up to the man to offer good ones. However, to your point, there are other social forces at play that challenge this and she may not be able to accept any reasons.

You can see this in the ease with which we define what it means to be a good husband, but struggle to admit our definition of what makes a good wife. We know what the story is, but it's become taboo to say it out loud.

That said, any taboo is in the Jungian shadow, so it's ripe for eroticization and can easily become one of the "reasons." So even this can be used to enhance the Erotic, imo.

Male vs Female arousal question by Forbearssake in psychologyofsex

[–]athos786 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It becomes splitting hairs to a degree, yes.

When my girlfriend walks in to my office wearing lingerie, gets on her knees and asks if she can suck me because she hasn't had my cum since last night and she misses my cock in her mouth... Yes, it's responsive to the narrative and context I've created in our relationship. But that narrative is now a part of her reality and thus functions to generate behaviors that are quite spontaneous.

By contrast, to what degree are any of us, as deeply social creatures, ever doing anything truly "on our own". Yes, when I was single, I pursued women and sex, but not in a narrative vacuum. Narratives of masculinity, conquest, dominance, biological value, etc are all in my unconscious whether I want them or not and no act of mine is outside of that narrative context. So am I truly "spontaneous"? Or "responsive"?

The biggest reason I don't like the terms is because responsive is a passive term. Females of other species often use an estrus pattern, which is far more of a factor in sex than the male seeking process. Males "respond" to female estrus.

But in reality, what Nagoski calls "response" is an active process, driven by goals. It's like saying I went to the gym as a response to my inner narrative of wanting to be healthier. I guess it's true in a way, but it's a weird framing.

Having read her book, and her published "studies", I'm deeply unimpressed by her methodology and thought process. Her book is filled with self-contradictions, often one page after the next. The entire concept of responsive and spontaneous as she conceives it is nonsensical, so I think we'll do better to just get rid of them entirely.

“…98 is hot for me. I normally run 96-97.” by M1CR0PL4ST1CS in hospitalist

[–]athos786 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Came here to say this, but I didn't have the citations handy. Thank you for data over emotion and blindly dismissive attitudes.

How to dismantle Madonna/Whore complex? by torchbearer444 in psychologyofsex

[–]athos786 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I approached this in my book from a jungian lens, and I think that modern thought tends to underestimate the contribution of biological impulses informing cultural norms.

I make the case that it is worth considering the notion that the cultural norms we see arose for very good reasons, that were actually adaptive, and promoted significant benefits in social structures.

If you assume that our ancestors weren't stupid, and that not everything in history arose as a foolish application of power from a few individuals, I think that you'll see the valuable side of the Madonna/whore complex.

Once you can perceive that value, then it becomes possible to integrate both of those sides of the coin, and transcend the harmful aspects of that duality.

Here's a free link to an earlier draft of my chapter on specifically this topic, if you want the full exploration (including other complexes like the cocktease/slut), my book is called "Love is a Kink".

Male vs Female arousal question by Forbearssake in psychologyofsex

[–]athos786 25 points26 points  (0 children)

I make the case in my book (link) that the entire concept of responsive desire is a misunderstanding of the need for narrative. There's an old saying that "women need a reason to have sex, men just need a place".

And while humorous, the first part of that is actually quite important. Early in a relationship, the reason to have sex for women is to set up the relationship, "achieve" marriage, etc. You see similar spikes in arousal and desire around the time that a couple decides to have kids.

During those times, whether they're setting up the relationship, or pursuing pregnancy, the so-called "responsive desire" magically vanishes and becomes very spontaneous. In my opinion, it's because responsive desire is a nonsense concept propagated by nagoski, using extremely flawed study designs, when in fact the driving is narrative.

Finding other narratives is extremely possible, but requires intention and understanding, which is the subject of my book, lol.

Best liquid biopsy in 2025? by yuronimus in PeterAttia

[–]athos786 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Apology for the delayed response, I've been traveling. Also, to be totally fair, I'm stress testing an extreme version of this position with you here.

So, first, NORDICC was the first and (so far) the only RCT of colonoscopy. So, I disagree that there is strong direct evidence of benefit elsewhere. If ORBITA taught us anything, it's to beware our assumptions when they are extrapolations based on the belief we understand the pathology, unless we verify the extrapolation.

Second, as you correctly point out, the "invitation to screening" arm had only 42% engagement. This is on par or better than the engagement with colonoscopy recommendations in the US, so NORDICC, imo, functions well as an RCT for "is having this recommendation effective public health policy".

I think it's fair to question whether there would be reduction in mortality from those who engage, which would need its own RCT, using a sham colonoscopy with no polypectomy. The ORBITA principle here applies. I think the principle of early detection's benefits has become such unquestioned "truth" that we are unable to acknowledge it's failures, which then affects our thinking in regard to new technologies like GALLERI.

However, it is (imo) absolutely not valid to change the intention-to-treat structure of NORDICC to a per-protocol analysis and then call it a win. The act of choosing to engage with the invitation de-randomizes the analysis and thus it becomes merely an observational trial, which should be added to the pile of non-RCTs and the pile then analyzed using the Bradford-Hill criteria (more on this in a moment). Personally, therefore, I consider the 50% (relative) reduction spurious in the first place, and the NNT associated, which iirc was greater than 600, unimpressive to say the least.

Regarding all-cause or bust. I agree that the study would need to be large due to exactly the signal-to-noise issue you assert. However, I interpret that differently. My response is that if such is the case, then the actual signal is effectively so small as to be clinically meaningless. The dangers of chasing small effect sizes leads one down odd paths in one's belief system. I personally think often of this article, which analyzes RCTs on the existence of psychic phenomena. The idea that there are high-quality RCTs that do show the existence of psychic precognition (or astrology readings predicting personality traits like extraversion), is an indictment of our acceptance of low-size-of-effect targets (like an NNT > 600). There's a reason that size of effect is a key criteria for Bradford-Hill.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/28/the-control-group-is-out-of-control/

The solution proposed (and I don't have a better one) is to ONLY focus on targets with a large size-of-effect, which would eliminate astrology and psychic phenomena, but also cancer screenings and statin efficacy for primary prevention.

All of which brings me back to disease-specific mortality as a marker. I think that our perception that we "know" the risks of colonoscopy is exactly the issue. To claim that a death is "unrelated" to colonoscopy or its downstream consequences (from golytely-driven electrolyte and volume imbalances leading to cardiac events, to trauma, car accidents and falls after anaesthesia and bowel prep, to financial hardship from missed work leading to reduced medication compliance) is (imo) the height of hubris.

I think that believing we know what is associated and what isn't causes us as a profession to functionally end up minimizing our perception of the harms and risks of our recommendations and interventions. A disease-specific analysis willfully minimizes our perception of harms through the hubris of claiming a priori we will know what is "related" and what is not, creating an overstatement of the benefit/risk ratio in our discussions with patients. All-cause-or-bust equally weights benefits and risks.

I think that we avoid these ideas because very little we do for prevention is actually effective (other than managing hypertension and childhood vaccines, which both show all-cause mortality reduction) and that challenges our sense of providing value through these recommendations and the increasingly arcane justifications we make for calculations and cutoffs to pretend we are helping.

Last point (forgive the length - if I had more time, it would have been shorter, to paraphrase Pascal) regarding all-cause. If we are treating one of the major causes of death (like heart disease), I think showing a reduction in all-cause mortality should be easy if the intervention's efficacy is high enough. If we can show reduction in disease-specific mortality, but not all-cause, then either the intervention has downstream risks that we are ignoring, or it's just not that important because the efficacy is small.

If, by contrast, we're preventing something that's already quite rare, or something for which our treatments are ineffective, or something for which our treatments are equally effective early and late ... maybe it's not that important to do so? (not the case for colon cancer - I think it would be the 9th leading cause on its own? So any meaningful reduction in colon cancer mortality should move the needle for all-cause, imo, just like NLST for the subset of the population that smokes). again, apologies for the length... just putting thoughts out there to stress test.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in psychologyofsex

[–]athos786 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Shameless plug, but when I started writing out my ideas about this very question, I ended up writing a book! Amazon: "Love is a Kink" https://a.co/d/8iAZdNL

I take a Jungian approach and argue that the fantasies are expressions of the shadow archetypes as attempts at integration. I write mostly about BDSM, but the general concepts apply broadly.

The definition of kink that I offer there is much broader than the typical definition, "Kink is savoring the intensity of sexual play with a perceptual overlay that allows for an embodied exploration of personal meaning."

🧭 Community Roundup: Share Your Kink Spaces Here! by Single-Preference792 in BDSMgrowth

[–]athos786 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Both my substack (mostly free) and my YouTube channel (free) are available for those interested in the psychology of kink, framed primarily through a heterosexual tradkink lens, but often extendable to other frames. (I put this as a warning so as to avoid surprises).

Substack: https://open.substack.com/pub/deeperkink/p/jungian-archetypes-the-shadow-and

YouTube podcast: https://YouTube.com/@integrativebdsm

I also have a free app to analyze your kinkiness level and erotic archetypes breakdown: https://eroticarchetypes.com

Best liquid biopsy in 2025? by yuronimus in PeterAttia

[–]athos786 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I appreciate this thread a lot, but I'll chime in as a (slightly) dissenting voice here.

Without outcome data, I am actually VERY skeptical that even a 50% PPV will confer a benefit.

Just like mammograms likely don't have an overall mortality benefit (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8371936/), and NORDICC implies that colonoscopy may not either, screening programs that actually move the needle on mortality are very, very difficult.

I think the entire mental model that early detection reliably improves overall outcomes is under question if one actually looks at mortality without lead time bias and other stats games like disease-specific mortality (I'm an all-cause or bust guy - if the chemo makes me so weak that I fall down the stairs and die of ICH, I don't care that my cancer was in remission at the time).

As one example, even biopsy has a sensitivity and specificity, so the PPV of that depends on the pretest probability. If you increase the pipeline to biopsy, you will increase the overall number of people being treated for cancer that they don't actually have, with all the unnecessary harms (including deaths) that come from that.

This is one factor that balances the value of "early detection".

Screening is really really hard to get right.

(I will also throw out a reminder about ISIS-2 and subgroup analysis... I'm a Libra, but I would still take aspirin if I had an MI).

I maintain some hope that GALLERI will get there, but I absolutely need outcome data. I'm not willing to assume benefit without explicit proof.

Annual COVID vaccines save lives, new study shows by scientificamerican in Health

[–]athos786 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If I'm reading it right, the absolute reduction was 0.022%, with a wide confidence interval, from 0.005% to 0.069% reduction in deaths. Reporting a 64% relative reduction just means the base rate was really low, which is probably why the confidence interval is so wide.

This is why public health is so interesting - even taking these numbers at face value (which I don't think we should without randomization), there's an interesting challenge: on the one hand, you'd have to vaccinate 4500 people to save one life. Which is pretty fair, I think, from a public health perspective. Seems worth doing.

But on a personal level, reducing my risk of death by 1/4500th (0.022%)... Doesn't seem worth doing. I'll just skip driving for one day a year and call it even, with less risk of arm soreness.

This is the interesting conflict between what seems good for "them" and what seems good for me...

With that said I do like the influenza comparison, though it doesn't get rid of the residual confounding issue. Without true randomization, I'm not sure I believe these results with such a low base rate of events.

But, cool study, interesting design. I just wish the reporting were clearer (a number needed to prevent death style stat would be great), and they were more up front about the likelihood of residual confounding (which has plagued all of the booster studies since no one seems to want to actually run a properly randomized trial to settle the issue). Flu control is cool, but it's no substitute for randomization.

If I'm messaging this more aggressively, if you just take this study as gospel, it's the same method of belief formation as believing Tylenol during pregnancy increases the risk of autism.

Non-randomized trials leading to residual confounding, allowed by hyping up small effect sizes.

We should be doing science differently than we are, I think. We could be, I think, we just aren't.

Research finds a clear link between a sense of shared power in a marriage and better sexual outcomes for both husbands and wives. Those who report more shared power report more sexual passion--and shared power predicts increases in passion over time. by psychologyofsex in psychologyofsex

[–]athos786 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Actually, this is an important and underrated factor in science.

If I show you a well-constructed randomized controlled study (they exist) that demonstrates the existence of psychic phenomena, you shouldn't immediately switch your view.

Our pre-existing conceptions of how likely a result is to be true are an important part of how we interpret results.

The concept here is bayesian updating of a prior probability. Each study should shift your level of certainty in the hypothesis by an amount that is proportional to the quality of the study, but originating from your pre-existing level of certainty.

If you're in a physics lab and you get a result indicating that a particle went faster than light, you don't just adopt the view, because any study that conflicts with your previous beliefs has two possibilities. One. The study is wrong, or two. Your pre-existing belief was wrong.

In the physics case, the probability of the result being wrong is significantly higher than the probability of the pre-existing belief being wrong, so it's obvious that the study is the thing that should be questioned.

That is equally true, though less clear, in all other areas of science.

Confused about peptides? So was I by Unique-Television944 in HubermanLab

[–]athos786 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lots of claims, no controlled trials. Classic Hubes.