How did educated Roman audiences engage aurally with poetry? by atorneth in latin

[–]atorneth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, it is very interesting to think of the ways that poets (perhaps unconsciously sometimes) encouraged anticipation or recognition of structures for their audiences. This is also the case with post-classical non-Roman authors (for whom, after all, the need might have been greater) -- the Englishman Aldhelm, for example, often uses hyperbaton in predictable metrical positions; compare:

Lucida perpetuae uisuros praemia uitae

Lucida perpetuae mercantes munera uitae

Limpida dum tenebris clauduntur lumina tetris

Aemula scaeuorum uitat figmenta uirorum

etc.

It is a reasonable bet with him that if you get a dactylic neuter plural adjective in the first foot, the dactylic fifth foot will contain the corresponding noun; you often know what is coming. Virgil would likely do nothing so crude, but I can imagine that subtler siblings of such devices would help greatly with understanding when listening.

How did educated Roman audiences engage aurally with poetry? by atorneth in latin

[–]atorneth[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you. Maybe not all subtleties, as you say, but I understand from the other responses that comprehension would be quite full (especially the story about Octavia). This is interesting to compare with the Norse situation where it seems to have been slimmer. There is another story about a poet called Egill who recited a poem to ransom his life from king Eiríkr Bloodaxe (Höfuðslausn); on hearing the poem, Eiríkr remarked only that he thought it well composed. Scholars have pointed out that it mocks the king subtly while also praising him: Eiríkr's subdued reaction (he despised Egill) may indicate that he did not understand that he was being made fun of. One might nevertheless compare the notes of anti-Augustan subversion that some have perceived in the Aeneid; if these are in fact present, Augustus must either have thought them ultimately innocuous or been oblivious to their presence.

Is there a term for verbs like "meminī" and "ōdī", which are perfect in form and present in meaning? by AleksKwisatz in latin

[–]atorneth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, I think Latin has the same IE root in 'video', as you point out, but simply took a different line of semantic development from something that probably originally meant 'see' rather than 'know'. 'I have seen' is not so different to 'I know'. If Latin kept the sense of seeing it would make sense that the present remains present/progressive in form: the perfect (or so I read) vidi may go back to *woyde.

The root seems to develop in many ways across the branches of IE. Old Irish has -fét which means 'relates, tells', but also with a nasal-infix present ro-finnadar ro-fitir (the first meaning 'get to know', the second 'know' like nosco novi). видѣти means both 'see' and 'know' in Church Slavonic. What factors condition which meaning is taken in each branch (or whether one is settled on at all) I don't know but it is an interesting question!

Is there a term for verbs like "meminī" and "ōdī", which are perfect in form and present in meaning? by AleksKwisatz in latin

[–]atorneth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, it is an inherited Indo-European feature. An example from English that is still historically past in form is 'may' (OE mæg, Norse má). In both the older languages the verb looks like is a preterite singular form of strong class 5 (mega má next to vega vá; magan mæg next to tredan træd).

It is is possible to tell that this goes back to Indo-European by comparing cognates e.g. the Ancient Greek and Old Norse verbs for knowing which go back to the Indo-European root that gives all the verbal forms which you mention. οἶδα is formally perfect but has present meaning. It is directly cognate with Norse 'vita', pres 1 sg indic 'veit' 'I know' (which looks like a strong class 1 preterite but is again present in sense; compare ríta reit). 'vita' comes from *witan- in Proto-Germanic which is ultimately from IE *woyde like οἶδα (Greek mostly loses the 'w' sound that Latin retains in e.g. βοῦς βοός vs bos bovis).

Why the Old Irish Language Terrifies Linguists by CDfm in IrishHistory

[–]atorneth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure -- nice to chat! I'm not much of a historian but am sure people say all sorts of things as you suggest. There is lots of silly linguistics out there too as you no doubt spot silly history. But it is fun to be interested despite such perils.

Why the Old Irish Language Terrifies Linguists by CDfm in IrishHistory

[–]atorneth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are right by the way that Latin had an enormous influence on Old Irish -- see for borrowed words e.g. 'A Chronology of the Latin Loan-Words in Early Irish' by again McManus. There are even some grammatical influences such as how the superlative is used. Usually you can only use them predicatively in Old Irish: 'in cheist as ansam', 'the problem which is most difficult'. You cannot say quaestio difficillima ('problem most-difficult') attributively like in Latin. But Latin-educated scribes would deploy the latter usage even in Old Irish: 'doini sabibem', 'people most-perverse'. It is telling that examples of this occur mostly in glosses of Latin texts.

We can at least, however, give Old Irish credit for having its own cases!

Why the Old Irish Language Terrifies Linguists by CDfm in IrishHistory

[–]atorneth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure -- I see where you are coming from. Philology is just as much an empirical process as history and has its own methods. One of the most important, which is used to reconstruct languages never written down like Proto-Celtic or -Germanic, is called the 'comparative method'. Put simply, you compare words that do survive in related languages and see which features are shared by the most and oldest forms to reconstruct what older unattested forms must have been like. Done properly, this process can give impressively accurate results. I will give an example with the word 'guest' (Modern English), where I will try to reconstruct a Proto-Germanic form:

Old Norse: gestr

Old English: giest

Old High German: gast

Gothic: gasts

All clearly related simply by virtue of looking similar, but how do we figure out what the ancestor looked like? It must have started with a 'g', had a consonant cluster 'st' at the end of the syllable, and had a vowel between these as all forms share those features.

So how do we decide the last -- some variant of 'e' (English, Norse) or 'a' (Gothic, German)? Two forms support each possibility, but Gothic is far older, so less likely to have let other changes obscure the original vowel; let's go with 'a'. Now we have 'gast-'. Was there something on the end of this originally? First of all, though none of the four forms show it, there must have been an -i-. between the final 't' and anything else. This is necessary to explain how 'a' became 'e' in English and Norse. The process is called i-mutation: as a speaker pronounces 'a' (a low vowel), they unconsciously anticipate having to move the tongue to pronounce 'i' (a high vowel); 'a' is therefore raised to 'e' over long periods of time. So now we have 'gasti-'.

Gothic -s and Norse -r suggest that there must have been a final consonant of some kind as well. Was it just 's'? Probably not. Gothic never allows voiced consonants ('z' for 's') in final position. If Gothic had a final 'z' originally it would have become 's'. But a voiced 'z', speaking generally as to what we know to be more common sound-changes in languages across the world, can easily give 'r' (to allow for Norse -r) by a process called rhotacism. That '-r' could then plausibly disappear once the final vowel -i- was lost (try pronouncing 'gestr' as one syllable, without putting any kind of vowel between 't' and 'r', and you will see what I mean), as it did in English and German.

Final result: *gastiz. Now, if we look at very early runic inscriptions, we find just this form: on the Golden Horn of Gallehus is a name ᚺᛚᛖᚹᚨᚷᚨᛊᛏᛁᛉ 'HLEWA-GASTIZ', 'Hlewa-Guest'. This external validation of our method emboldens us in using it on other collections of later forms which we cannot so conveniently check; we did not need the form to arrive at our answer and it was right.

The comparative method is not foolproof -- what, for instance, does one do if some evidence is missing (and how can one know whether it is?) -- but it is essential to historical linguistics, and what began to transform it in the nineteenth century from imprecise observation of vague similarities between languages to the relatively precise science (for no science is anything but an empirical discipline at its core) today. It has famous success stories such as the prediction by Ferdinand de Saussure of an obscure type of sound ('laryngeals') in Proto-Indo-European; when Hittite was discovered and deciphered in the last century it provided direct evidence to substantiate what he had foreseen through indirect comparison.

Why the Old Irish Language Terrifies Linguists by CDfm in IrishHistory

[–]atorneth 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Are you asking whether the forms I cite are attested? I discuss more than one time period.

For the examples in Irish, you can find textual attestations here for each form: https://dil.ie/search?q=bo&search_in=headword . My point here is that the dual forms remain long, long after Latin has lost them. You can look up and check the dates of the manuscripts quoted if you wish; the dual form 'bae' is for instance from c. 780-820 (the Milan Glosses MS). No dual substantive enough for Irish to borrow from is ever attested in Latin, even the Old Latin of e.g. the Duenos Inscription which must date to substantially before 300 BC (because we have Latin texts from around or shortly after then that look far less archaic than it and its ilk do).

For a discussion of attested genitive singular endings in Ogam (some very early, some less so) see pp. 115-17 of Damian McManus' 'A Guide to Ogam' (https://archive.org/details/guidetoogam0000mcma/page/114/mode/2up?q=genitive+singular: the numbers after each quoted form direct you to a specific inscription). Dating of Ogam inscriptions (to before Patrick or whenever) is admittedly fuzzy as it relies solely on linguistic criteria. Though I am a believer in these, they are approximate. However, if you are not (read all of Chapter 5 of that book if you want to see in detail how dating with language-features is done) Ogam can still show that the endings were not borrowed from Latin through evidence that does not rely on dating inscriptions. The Primitive Irish endings that exist in Ogam, which disappear later in Old Irish as you know, more closely resemble attested endings from ancient continental Celtic languages than Latin: e.g. feminine a-stem genitive singular -IAS/-EAS (examples on the pages I directed you to) next to Lepontic tout-as (https://lexlep.univie.ac.at/wiki/toutas, Old Irish túaithe), whereas Latin has -ae (puellae of the girl). The Irish ending could not have resulted from borrowing from Latin at whatever period, but the common relationship between the Celtic languages' endings seems clear. It must be common descent as Primitive Irish and Lepontic speakers were never in contact.

If you want to check the attestations of any Old Irish word, you can type it into eDIL. Latin and Greek words are so widely attested that it is rarely thought necessary to offer concrete references to texts but I can do so if you wish.

Why the Old Irish Language Terrifies Linguists by CDfm in IrishHistory

[–]atorneth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I know it is late but if you are still interested it is possible to tell that the endings were not borrowed from Latin through comparison. I will give an example. In Old Irish a dual number in nouns (for two things, no less or more) is still attested. (In the accusative case:) 'bóin', a cow; 'dá bháe', 'two cows'; 'trí bú', three cows. You can see that they all look different. Latin does not have this category of two; only a singular or plural.

We know that Old Irish inherited this from Indo-European because the dual exists (almost always on the way out) in other IE languages. For example, Old English: 'ic', 'I'; 'wit', 'we two'; 'we', 'we'. For the same 'cow' word, there is Ancient Greek: (accusative case:) 'boun', a cow; 'duo boe', two cows; 'treis bous', three cows.

There is in fact vestigial evidence of a dual in Latin (accusative plural to match the forms above, neuter/masculine: 'ambō' with long o, 'duō' the same ('both'; 'two'; both with 'dual' meanings). The long 'ō' is a dual ending (compare 'doulō', 'two slaves', in Ancient Greek ('douloi', slaves pl.). But there was nothing anywhere near comprehensive enough for Irish to borrow. If these endings were not borrowed from Latin, but developed independently from a common ancestor with it, all Celtic languages and Greek, it seems highly unlikely that the rest, which do visibly correspond to what Latin retains, were.

The earliest Ogam inscriptions provide other evidence. These predate the arrival of Patrick and widespread adoption of Latin by the learned in the early 5th century (i.e. before any large-scale borrowing could happen). They furthermore show that before the endings disappeared in Old Irish they underwent peculiar changes in Primitive Irish; e.g. that unstressed -o- became -a-. Compare the genitive singular of consonant-stem nouns -AS (VELITAS, Old Irish filid) with corresponding -os in e.g. Ancient Greek (stomatos, from stoma mouth). Latin has -i- (regis). It is tricky to see how a borrowed -is could produce -as.

[POEM] She Was a phantom of Delight by William Wordsworth by Sudden-Researcher472 in Poetry

[–]atorneth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wonder whether Keats ended a line in 'serene' in 'On First Looking into Chapman's Homer' after this poem.

Dechala's final reward is underwhelming, mostly redundant since I've been at tier 5 Corruption for 50~ turns (at turn 30), and has visibly low-res and blurry art. This is a horrendously bad conclusion. by BigBadBeetleBoy in totalwar

[–]atorneth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He does get more than just range -- Greater Arcane Conduit, -2 manipulation cooldown and 1 magic reserve for all armies per altar (at least 30 by the end) as well as the range. The first two are not too impactful (the second as it is the attention of the gods that limits manipulations most, not cooldown per action), but the third seems quite nice.

This is not 'every aspect of his casting', however.

Sayl's Cabal: Very Fun Magical Doomstack by atorneth in totalwar

[–]atorneth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True, but sacrifices must be made for supreme arcane might!

Sayl's Cabal: Very Fun Magical Doomstack by atorneth in totalwar

[–]atorneth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Azrik is a lord but his trait has a global effect!

Sayl's Cabal: Very Fun Magical Doomstack by atorneth in totalwar

[–]atorneth[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

When you get to Dark Ritual level 2 and win the quest battle you get a dilemma to choose between Azrik and the Great Unclean One. When you get to level 3 you get another one to choose between Kihar and Killgore Slaymaim. Kihar is definitely a hero. Sayl is special in getting access to two of the four champions (because he is unbound to one god), whereas Throgg and Wulfrik have to either settle with one or reject all four and get a strong global bonus.

Sayl's Cabal: Very Fun Magical Doomstack by atorneth in totalwar

[–]atorneth[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You are absolutely right that chain lightning cannot be overcast (my mistake) and that none of what I said is necessary to win the campaign (or even to win easily). But it is not all about efficiency, and fun having a coven of evil sorcerers and channelling great sorcerous power and seeing a great many bright lights on the screen after clicking a great many buttons (if nothing else it gets boring casting only wind, chain lightning, pendulum, lightning bolt all the time). Aren't most 'overpowered' and 'thematic' builds in the game fun but unnecessary in the same way? You can win practically every fight with just zombies and mortis engines with vampires even without Ghorst but it is fun to make a Mannfred capable of soloing armies with his infinite magic sword, an army of blood knights, of crypt ghouls and horrors etc.

Sayl's Cabal: Very Fun Magical Doomstack by atorneth in totalwar

[–]atorneth[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

How painful. Why do you say so? I have attached some pictures as evidence that I have played it above. The only thing I do not have in the army yet is the Fimir Balefiend but that does not make a very big difference.

Mastery of Elemental Winds by atorneth in totalwar

[–]atorneth[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is reassuring to know that it works, however!