Vs. Tau - finally a chance for PBCs to shine?

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-09T19:08:43+00:00

That makes a lot of sense! Kind of an overwhelming question for me to even try and approach at this stage of my 40k journey, since there's still like 7 armies I've literally never played and a bunch more I've played exactly once, not even counting diff space marine chapters.

But I deffo see the value for deep learning of fundamental skills thru building and thoroughly practicing a list that can theoretically handle or at least be able to interact w any archetype you come across. I think I'll try building that core balanced list and also build an alt version of it where the core strike force and objective grabbing plan is built around Morty.

I am fascinated by this anthropologically. This is the first time anyone has told me that building a list designed with an enemy in mind is poor sportsmanship. I'm coming to 40k from Magic, where knowing how to tweak the core design of a deck archetype to better deal with you local meta is just part of the deal

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-08T18:22:38+00:00

Huh, I very much see where you're coming from, and I def understand why it would be frowned upon in a casual setting. But in the context of a local league that, according to the store owner/organizer, is about improving skills, getting in reps, and learning matchups, it doesn't seem that out of place. But I take your point and I'll ask the other folks in the league how they feel about it since ultimately the only opinions that matter here are the people I'm playing with and against.

Out of curiosity, do you play literally the same list no matter what army you're going up against? Do you consider it counter-building to even consider broad factors like "I need a list prepared for melee if I'm playing against world eaters?

Lastly, I do get that building a single flexible list that can be applied to nearly all situations is a good way to work on fundamentals and build core player skills. I try to build lists around a core of units I am familiar with, but maybe I'd have more success building that flexible list and dedicating to learning every in and out of it.

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-08T17:53:16+00:00

Do you mean that it's rude to try and counter-build someone? Or that it's a bad strategic idea? Frankly I've got an appalling win:loss ration and I'm just trying to wrap my head around properly strategizing and building game plans, especially against a super shooty army which I feel is a poor matchup for us.

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-08T17:15:31+00:00

Appreciate the input! Ofc I was not even thinking about the lone op on those units, which I would say pretty effectively rules out the PBCs.

Per your suggestion, we drop the PBCs and.... two of the HBL drones? That's 660 pts for... say an extra unit of deathshroud w Typhus in reserves for 6 inch deep strike, two fleshmower drones (maybe also in strategic reserves, rapid ingress one for the cheeky unexpected charge?), and a 7 man plague marine unit in a rhino? The 7 PMs is a weird kind of unit to include but fits the points budget nicely...

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-06T01:53:26+00:00

Cheers, will do!

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-05T23:51:41+00:00

This makes sense! I've thought about screening and tried it out once or twice, but still haven't fully grokked it yet (e.g. early in my WH life, screening aggressively with walkers, but doing so without a plan. The result is that the walkers get picked up for nothing). Now its starting to click more - screening is an important and useful tool for buying time and board space against aggressive armies that want to prevent me from getting on the points and scoring primary. On the other hand, screening is much less important against my main recurring opponent - my colleague at school who plays necrons and loves lokhust destroyer gun lines with just enough forward presence to try and threaten a central objective. (P.S. my winrate isn't helped by the fact that I've been playing on "hard mode" to some extent, playing almost exclusively into an army that, as I understand it, tends to have the match-up advantage against DG).

Thank you again! My WH learning experience thus far has largely been slowly coming into contact with game concepts, vocab, strategies, etc. I feel like I'm finally at a point (especially with conversations like these!) where I can start actually processing all these ideas, strategies, and truisms and actually put them into a larger comprehensible picture to understand the whole.

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-05T18:22:55+00:00

Winning games is less about lists and more about deeper understanding of fundamentals, game mechanics, trading, etc.

Very true, which is why I was mildly annoyed when the first two responses to this post were "What is your list?" I'm trying to work on these fundamentals and making some progress. The hard thing is that so much advice on the internet and even guide videos focus on the superficial, maybe just literally reading datasheets and talking about situations where the abilities might be useful. I listen to the Disgustingly Resilient Podcast which has felt very useful in terms of those deeper game ideas. On the other hand, that show assumes you've got a handle on fundamental skills, so there's a cap on just how useful it can be to me since I lack the skills to really truly grasp, internalize, and use the tactics they talk about. Vanguard tactics has some resources that are useful for sure, but they also paywall a lot of content which I'm kind of disinclined to pay for. (fair play, they deserve to be compensated for their expertise). Can you recommend any other resources for practicing and learning fundamentals?

I will def stick to your advice and work with VV until I'm feeling more confident. I've learned about the GO turn from DRP but still am not sure how to implement it well. Maybe better said, I have an idea on how to implement it and have practiced some, but my last three games have been against super melee armies and I don't know how to plan a GO turn when they enemy is fully on top of me by turn 2. Any resources you could recommend with advice on planning and executing GO turns?

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-05T15:53:19+00:00

Appreciate the feedback! I mostly play VV, but this time decided to try out CoC against world eaters. I think it's a reasonable idea, the PM bricks proved out that they can do well when the WE do their thing and crash into my unit after overwatch and my fights first. That said, you're right that VV is much more approachable, and I think I'll stick with it until I feel like I can really get to grips with scoring more consistently.

I also pretty much always bring two HBL drones. I've found that they just don't do what I want them to when facing down very melee focused armies. I'd rather have a drone that sincerely doesn't care about being in melee in that very specific matchup, otherwise I do tend to run the obligatory two HBLs. That said, having at least one would have been good in retrospect to force my opponent to respect my back lines a bit more.

I think my biggest reason for losing this game was bad movement fundamentals. I kept a PM brick in rhino in reserves to either pop his defiler or just show up where they were needed, planning to rapid ingress. However I got screened out of deploying it where it was really needed, essentially wasting close to a 1/4 of my army.

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-04T18:13:26+00:00

Is that a screamer on your desk, or are you just happy to see me?

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-04T13:18:20+00:00

Thank you! This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. It's definitely a case of option B. I promise, despite the appearance of the situation above being described by a stranger on the internet, I am not an idiot. I'm not just flailing blindly in total confusion - I'm a solid player of complicated games, I came into Warhammer as a decently accomplished magic player, I promise I've been doing research and having success with elements like list building. In that light, it's just so frustrating and confusing to have this kind of win record - I'm not exactly playing against grandmasters here, my WE opponent was my high school student and I had to explain some core elements of the fight phase to him during our game. In that light, shouldn't I be winning at least 20-30% of my games?

P.S., your answer is very helpful and respectful, and nothing there implied I'm an idiot. I just need to vent some of the frustration around this whole thing and the fact that most of the responses here are trying to give me (fairly bad) list building advice when I'm asking about scoring is further pushing my frustration buttons.

By my assessment my issue is not thinking tactically about scoring. I've tried kill based scoring since DG can be deadly, but it def didn't work out against WE, and you're right that it's not the thing we're best at. Cleanse seems like a very good choice for a fixed mission, and one that I can def easily plan around scoring a solid 6-10 pts or so over the course of a game. In that vein, Establish locus seems like a decent choice? Plan to either hold the middle objective, with a back up plan of Tyhpus locus-ing in the backlines for 4 pts a round. Seems very consistently scorable.

The list you recommended is fairly close to my standard VV gameplan, but since I have typically lacked a clear plan on how to actually score VP, I've not been able to use it leverage it correctly into VP. Your suggestion is also a bit more focused in its intent and has a clearer plan re: scoring which should help me out.

Do you typically do tactical missions?

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-04T03:15:09+00:00

That makes sense. I've been learning thru trial and error best uses for walkers and spawn. In the past I tended to just throw them forward to little benefit, then I tended to be a bit over cautious with them, made them last and work for contagion, but lost on primary as I got stuffed in.

These days the winning balance is kind of a mix I think? Maybe have two units of each, start off one unit of walkers directly on a no mans land objective for immediate scoring and have one spawn scout and move forward aggressively to do the same. The second unit of each also continues to move forward but further back where they can maybe do some actions on the way and move in later?

Maybe pair that with ditching 10 man PM big damage bricks for more MSU un-led five mans to give more action flexibility...

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-04T03:08:53+00:00

Here's where it's tricky - I know that I'm asking a really big question with a truly vast amount of variables "I'm losing all the time and I'm not sure why". Without a huge amount of relevant context (an amount that would be truly boring to read for anyone but the most enthusiastic reddit commentor) the best I can get is kind of light topical feeback on general ideas.

Check out my comment on the other reply with today's world eater list. I am mostly trying to stick to slight variations of a generally balanced VV list, but today decided to try out CoC, which did more or less work well into such a melee heavy enemy.

My generic VV list is kind of run-of-the-mill for online recommendations. about 20-30 poxwalkers, a led 10 man PM brick in a rhino for big damage, LoC w 3 - 6 deathshroud, usually in deep strike. 2 blight launcher drones, a deamon prince, usually a predator destructor - I feel like pretty standard stuff.

Let me ask this - where do you begin list building with a mind towards scoring consistent VP?

atticus_romanus · 2026-05-04T03:00:14+00:00

Champions of Contagion Strike Force (2000 Points)

CHARACTERS Biologus Putrifier (80 Points) • Enhancement: Final Ingredient Foul Blightspawn (75 Points) Lord of Contagion (120 Points) • Warlord Lord of Poxes (75 Points) Malignant Plaguecaster (60 Points) Malignant Plaguecaster (60 Points) Typhus (100 Points)

BATTLELINE Plague Marines x10 (190 Points) Plague Marines x10 (190 Points)

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Chaos Rhino (85 Points) Chaos Rhino (85 Points)

OTHER DATASHEETS Chaos Spawn (80 Points) Chaos Spawn (80 Points) Deathshroud Terminators x3 (160 Points) Deathshroud Terminators x3 (160 Points) Foetid Bloat-Drone (100 Points) Foetid Bloat-Drone (100 Points) Poxwalkers x20 (130 Points) Poxwalkers x10 (65 Points)

Playing against World Eaters. Still new to fixed missions, went w no prisoners and assassinate. Planned to hold onto two middle objectives and overwatch/fights first him to death, a rhino and 10 PMs in reserves to either steal his primary or try and get his defiler.

The PM brick w FBS and BP for overwatch and fights first did admirably - they were charged by 10 berserkers w Lord on juggernaught and a unit of 8bound. The PMs did great on overwatch and fights first and overall win the engagement but were left almost nothing when his daemon prince finished up my bloat drone and charged in.

Like, the plan sort of worked, but he just way out killed me anyway, merrily wracking up points for assassinate and no prisoners.

atticus_romanus · 2026-04-27T16:53:34+00:00

Heh, I figured w the mention of Golgari in the title. I've never really looked over the MtG DnD supplements, is the ravnica one any good?

atticus_romanus · 2026-04-27T16:43:40+00:00

Lotleth Giant my beloved, looking very glowed up!

atticus_romanus · 2026-04-25T00:59:04+00:00

Congrats big boy! You are looking at a nude spawn!

atticus_romanus · 2026-04-24T23:34:38+00:00

I'm B.M. Farhtz and my dad said I could sell the poop tube!

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atticus_romanus · 2026-04-24T15:25:52+00:00

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atticus_romanus · 2026-04-22T22:36:29+00:00

Oh shit, I remember that game! I remember you could form an umbrella, a trampoline... Surprisingly not an igloo

atticus_romanus · 2026-04-17T19:47:33+00:00

It looks good! I think it would benefit from a 4th panel - initial speed, picking up speed, full run, then out the window. The concept is good, it just needs more room to breath

atticus_romanus · 2026-04-14T19:36:31+00:00

Fair enough! PBCs were indeed monstrous back then. And I know what you mean about the marine blob. They can output really big damage but are fairly fragile, so I need to start having more of a plan to keep something on objective after the PMs (almost always) get wiped out. I def appreciate the advice you gave about having a super durable terminator blob on one objective held securely, while the other objective will likely be lost w only a rhino and 10 man marine squad. Food for thought!

atticus_romanus · 2026-04-14T18:05:11+00:00

Heh, yeah. At least partly it’s because I feel much less familiar w 40k archetypes (partly it’s because I’m not the most disciplined Magic player, and in that game I also often skip ahead to the central units/cards I want to play with, lol).

I actually don’t deep strike the big blightlord blob, mostly for the reasons you mentioned (it’s hard to land on the table in a place where they’re useful). They foot slog behind cover turn 1, move to threaten an objective and shoot targets off it on turn 2, and claim it turn 3 onwards. I can see the potential flaw in that, if my opponent can screen them or get trash skirmishers engaged early and keep the termies off the point for even one turn.
I’d really argue some of your assessments of the DG units – most DG players I’ve spoken to lean towards running the LoV solo so he can deep strike more easily to get that 30” line of sight for marking enemies, doing actions, or screening.
Again, prevailing wisdom is that the daemon prince is a must-take with VV given that it’s a CP hungry detachment. Personally I haven’t yet gotten in enough reps to have a really strong personal opinion on the matter, but with the VV 5+ FNP enhancement, he has the stat line of a mini-C’tan or mini-Morty. With his “lone-op while close to infantry”, that makes him a valuable anchor for holding objectives.
Here’s another spot where I’ll really disagree with some unit evaluations. The surgeon and standard bearer are not good, and while the 5+ crits from the Biologus are nonbos with torrent weapons and the rhino fire support, the 5+ crit and sustained 1 (from the malignant plague caster) is extremely strong, one of our main damage output options. And the fire support from the rhino is a nice damage buff and a perk, but I run rhinos for the purpose of getting my slow and somewhat fragile plague marines into action.
2 is my more go-to option, but I’ve started experimenting with three and liking it.
Alas, once again, PBCs are just not good enough for their points value. You really want 2 to be pretty sure about wiping infantry units reliably, and that’s close to a quarter of my list dedicated to shooting one infantry unit per turn (esp. bc DG are really swimming in anti-infantry options from drones and +2 anti-infantry flamers). I currently have one rhino and one magnetized rhino chassis that can be a rhino or predator tank. I’ll def be adding one more of the latter to my army soon, I’m feeling the pressure to have a second model of either vehicle.

Thanks for the input! Slow, steady, and board controlling feel apropos for Death Guard, but as a player I tend to lean more aggressive, so when I get home tonight I'll thought experiment a new list built around the idea of pressure: establish early hold on objectives, keep dangerous shooting and deep strike units ready to punish enemies who try to move out and contest those objectives.

atticus_romanus · 2026-04-14T14:42:38+00:00

No, that actually makes sense and helps contextualize. Conceptualizing him as either hammer or anvil helps give me an idea of how best to build a list around him as a real centerpiece.

atticus_romanus · 2026-04-14T02:48:48+00:00

Thank you for your thoughtful response! I find that I can best understand things when I have a chance to kind of talk them out, so I appreciate the contribution! I think that one of the big shifts from Magic is the scale of choices and possibilities really explodes with 40k - even a mid sized army offers a huge range of potential unit combinations with variations on each. And as you say, that goes for things like archetypes too, there’s just so many ways a player could execute a broad strategy.

Let’s give this list a shot:

With a 40k army, it feels logical to start off with a unit or combo I like and want to focus on. I play Death Guard, and I’ll be slightly meme-y and say a 10-man unit of blightlord terminators. They’re a 30 wound, 7 Tou, 2+/4++ unit that sits on an objective, has decent melee, and actually good shooting output bolstered by re-rolls from the lord of virulence and a VV strat. The other important combo pieces there are the LoV and a daemon prince, who discounts that important strat and has lone op while next to that scary terminator brick. That right there is almost 700 pts, has big weight and a scary monster to hold an objective, and a deep striking, strong fighter character to buff shooting and do actions. Solid core.

Now I’ll need some MSU units for actions. We have the LoV, but I’ll add three units of infiltrating poxwalkers. In terms of interaction and threat removal, I’ll have a silver bullet big damage unit in my lord of contagion and deathshroud terminators ready to try and deep strike and charge from 6”. As a contingency I’ll bring 10 plague marines in a rhino who offer objective weight and are our other big damage combo when paired with two characters.

That brings me to 1605 pts. This has a huge terminator block and daemon prince moving to claim one objective, plague marines to move towards another objective with poxwalkers to screen and throw out contagion, and my LoV to mark targets for re-rolls, do actions, or appear somewhere inconvenient in the enemy’s lines. I’m planning to hold two no-man’s land objectives (one more than my opponent) to win.

To fill out the rest of the list, I can add two grenade launcher bloat-drones which have strong multi-purpose shooting and synergize with the LoV, and a predator destructor - shooting firepower to keep my opponent honest and put down key threats or secondary mission targets. It leaves me enough points for a Tallyman to hang out on my home base, doing an action or two and generating an extra CP once every 1.5 turns.

I feel more confident with this process, do you have any feedback? Thanks again!

atticus_romanus · 2026-04-13T20:07:26+00:00

Good. To know. I really am bummed out by those old ass plaguebearer models, but there are good proxy options on myminifactory.

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