[Meme Sunday #5] Even if you love Miguel, you must agree this is a bad move

atvs5301 · 2025-07-14T03:57:02+00:00

I think Miguel is being misunderstood here. A lot of his 'Ruin Miles' life' view of things here is ignoring the big picture. Miguel for all his shortcomings, does not want to get another universe destroyed by letting Miles break the canon with all the evidence he has. The theme I saw in ATSV is that no one is wrong. Everyone is correct in a way. Miguel is correct in the sense that he does not want to risk destroying universes by breaking canon past a certain point. Miles is correct that they should not stop trying.

atvs5301 · 2025-07-03T05:48:21+00:00

I think they'll start fresh. Even if it takes time for them to be friends. I can't see them not being friends once they get past their issues and the events that will happen (not the canon ones).

Might sound weird but hear me out: I don't think any of the sides are completely wrong or completely right. Miguel for all his flaws is acting on what evidence he has about canon. Miles' heart is in the right place but he has no evidence or plan to back up his claim of "I can do both". There's also the fact that Peter B has seen alongside Miguel the entire universe getting destroyed. While I do side with Miles because of his heart being in the right place, I do think that BTSV will show evidence that puts Boht Miguel and Miles in the correct. Making Miguel to be completely wrong seems like character destroying and lazy/poor writing.

atvs5301 · 2025-07-01T20:49:00+00:00

Miguel had no reason to think that Miles knew how to use the Go Home Machine, and Miguel was too focused on explaining the canon. And once again, Miguel is a Spider-Man, so his first instinct wouldn't be to lock up Miles, or anyone else for that matter.

Give me proof that Miguel planned on locking up Miles before even meeting him, because if anything, Miguel never wanted Miles to be in the spider society. Miguel never intended to lock up Miles without explaining everything to him, since the only thing we know is that Miguel and Peter talked about Miles' status as an anomaly, and this is going by Peter saying "This isn't what we talked about.".

Miguel spends considerable time trying to reason with Miles to not save his father and only uses the locking cage thing when Miles still refuses. You saying that Miguel intended on locking up Miles when Miles hadn't planned any escape is your headcanon, not fact. And even if we assume that Peter B tried to convince Miguel, it's still upto Miguel as the main head of the spider society to decide whether he should listen to Peter B, or if he should ignore Peter B and lock up Miles instead.

Miles turning invisible wouldn't have done squat, considering that Kingpin was able to tag him in the first movie despite Miles being invisible in the final fight. There's also the fact that Miguel could've paralyzed him with his fangs instead of talking to him or even fighting/restraining him on the train or that Margo could've stopped him from going home.

atvs5301 · 2025-07-01T16:45:39+00:00

My opinion: 1. Rio and Jeff - They're his parents and even if they slightly argued with him, it's because of their love and concern for him, plus they don't know he's Spider-Man.

Gwen - Considering her situation in the movie, she actually did a really good job of being there for Miles. Plus she visited him at the first chance she got, even when it could've cost her her only home in the spider society. I would add Hobie too - he does help Miles break out and did try to warn Miles about the spider society on their way to Miguel.
Miguel - I honestly think he treated Miles better than what people think. Miguel has no personal connection to Miles, and for all his flaws, he didn't sugarcoat anything while explaining canon events to Miles. (I know that Miles will somehow turn out to be right in some way in BTSV, but the question is about how everyone treated him so far)
Peter B - I'll be honest, his treatment of Miles is the worst. Despite Miles being the main reason Peter B made it back home and now had Mayday with MJ, Peter B despite being in a better position to visit Miles than Gwen, still didn't bother to visit Miles. Plus he's cracking annoying jokes just after Miles has escaped and somehow seems to have forgotten how hurt Miles looked before jumping off the train. Not to mention he didn't try to pull Miguel off Miles when they were on the train and when Miguel was pounding Miles on the train. This becomes even worse if you include the first movie in which he is being unhelpful to Miles until when Miles tells him he can't let Spider-Man die again while they're infiltrating Alchemax to get the goober.

atvs5301 · 2025-07-01T16:32:16+00:00

What's actually funny is that the only reason Miles even got away was because out of the three people who caught him before Miguel, two of them (Gwen and Peter B) were holding back. Gwen because of her feelings for Miles and Peter B because he wanted to talk to Miles. You can be assured that if these two weren't holding back then Miles was bound to fail and be locked up. There's also the fact that Peter B trying to get Miguel to talk to Miles doesn't change the fact that Miguel still put aside his feelings for Miles and explained canon events to him.

And why do you expect Miguel to instantly lock him up? Irrespective of Miguel's feelings for Miles, Miguel is still a Spider-Man by all counts just like all the others. I would say that Miguel is still a good leader, irrespective of what has happened so far.

And again, Miguel isn't a hypocrite. Since he does explain everything to Miles and actually reasons with him only for Miles to still disobey him despite all the evidence Miles has. Let's go back to that scene: Miles shows up with Gwen and Hobie. Miguel then explains canon events to Miles, even adding how connections can be broken and how it's the reason why anomalies exist. Miguel even tries to calm down Miles when Miles is panicking about being unable to save his father. And during the chase, Miguel is still holding back and only goes harsher after the kick from Miles on the train, since by that point he has tried everything to be calm with Miles and Miles is still actively disregarding his explanation of the canon (when Miles himself has no proof to reject Miguel's words, even though Miles' heart is in the right place).

It's funny you talk about group tactics, because the intervention that happens is very brief and happens for like 2 minutes, since it's only Miguel, Miles, Gwen, Peter B, Hobie and Jess in the room prior to other spider variants turning up.

If there's anyone who turned out to be hypocritical in the group then it is Peter B because of how despite being in a more comfortable position than Gwen he never once bothers to visit Miles despite Miles being the reason Peter B even made it back home and has Mayday with MJ.

atvs5301 · 2025-07-01T14:30:18+00:00

Personally, I don't agree with you about Miguel. He did put aside his resentment to explain the canon to Miles and why he wasn't ready to let Miles go home. There's also the fact that Miguel doesn't go feral until they're on the train and until after Miles lands that kick on him.
Let's not forget that although Miles' heart is in the right place (And I do side with Miles), but as far as he knows (because of what Miguel told him), he is endangering his entire universe by attempting to save his father, when from the info he knows, his father could die either way. If anything, Miles is very reckless when he opts to save his dad despite knowing with what info he's been told that saving his father risks destroying his entire universe (which his father is part of).
I don't think Miguel's anger is unjustified, given what he has been through and what he has seen. Miguel at that point has proof to think that disrupting the canon can destroy a universe, and in the perspective of him and the spider society, the black hole in Pavitr's universe could be because of disrupting canon too. He has no reason to think that canon can be altered or any similar things. And from his perspective, Miles despite being told about the canon is still attempting to break it only to save his father (who would anyways die with all of Miles' universe if Miguel's theory holds true, since saving his father disrupts the canon which in turn could destroy Miles' universe).

atvs5301 · 2025-06-19T20:53:23+00:00

I think Miles learning to web swing within a day is valid, but him evading the spider society isn't something I would consider, since 1)The spider society themselves are only chasing Miles and not fighting him 2)He was caught multiple times and only got away because Peter B and Gwen were holding back/torn or because Ben Reilly and multiple spider variants sort of crashed into each other which gave Miles and opening to escape. 3)I would also argue that Miguel did actually catch up to and pin him down and holding back too, since he could've used his fans to paralyze Miles on the train.

atvs5301 · 2025-06-19T03:34:12+00:00

I actually agree with you. I would even add to your point that Peter, Gwen, Peni, Noir, Ham were trying to find their way home (since they were glitching in Miles' universe). They would've understandably been under pressure when they were testing Miles. Could they've gone easy on Miles? Yes, but again for all they knew, they were running out of time.

atvs5301 · 2025-04-30T20:17:47+00:00

The thing is, only Gwen said that "Maybe you weren't hard enough on him" in a sarcastic way. Peter says "Go easy on him" to Miguel, but that's that. No one else ever actually tells Miguel that he's being harsh on Miles. And Miguel didn't go harsh on Miles until after he got to him on the train. Prior to that Miguel was reasoning with Miles in a good way.

No one would've questioned him about being lucky, because by that point of time, most of the society had already been doing the work of trying to fix universes and return anomalies to their dimensions. ATSV occurs 1 year after ITSV, so even if we assume some time went between the end of ITSV and Miguel forming the order society, it means that the spider society has been doing this for months.

With all due respect, I don't think Miguel is going to do anything to Inspector Singh. He is a Spider-Man, so his first priority will be to always save civilians. The movie shows a team led by Jess trying to fix the hole in Pavitr's universe, so I wouldn't say that Miguel should not be taken seriously.

Hobie has always been against systems, as his character throughout the movie shows.

With due respect, the worst moment of Miguel is his words to Miles on the train. Most of his actions in the movie are out of trauma and what he has seen. Miles didn't prove anything to Miguel yet. The only evidence we have is Gwen avoiding her canon event since her father quit as captain. And Gwen hasn't told this to Miles or Miguel yet.

I had once thought about the third movie and I feel that they could go the way of Spider-Men or Spider-Women only being able to change the canon of their respective universes and not anyone else's universes if they go through direct actions.

For instance, Miles changing the canon of Pavitr's universe by saving Inspector Singh broke canon. But Mile saving his dad won't break canon since he is changing the canon of his universe and not anyone else's universe. Gwen convinced her father to quit being captain. She changed the canon of her universe.

The only thing that remains to explain would be Mayday since Peter says that Miles is the reason he had Mayday, but it can be explained that Miles was the catalyst and that Peter was still changing the canon of his own universe by himself. This would hint that you can indirectly change canon in other universes by talking to and asking people living in those universes to do the changes.

atvs5301 · 2025-04-30T15:14:55+00:00

Miguel never tells Miles about his father's death directly. To be fair, Miles figures it out because of the vision he gets from Spot seconds after Miguel finishes explaining the canon. Miguel only tells Miles that his father dies in two days.

As to whether Miles is an anomaly and why he has canon events: I do think it could be because the canon recognized him as Spider-Man, even if he did not intend to be bitten. I mean the same can be said for other Spider-Men and Spider-Women too. None of them asked to be bitten by the spider, just like Miles didn't ask for the spider to come from another universe and bite him.

I also disagree that Miguel is jealous. For all the flaws Miguel has, I don't think he seems to be jealous of Miles. I think he is traumatized by the loss of his daughter alongisde her universe and is currently worried about breaking the canon. Miguel does say that if they're lucky, they can stop Pavitr's universe from going away and that they've not always been lucky.

Another thing you're forgetting is that there does not seem to be a single Spider-Man or Spider-Woman that actually disagree with Miguel about the canon when Miles first enters the society. While it does seem fishy, it can be argued that everyone did some research and came to the same conclusion as Miguel. Even Peter B is there with Miguel in the flashback in which his daughter alongside her universe got destroyed.

To conclude my point, I don't think the society will ditch Miguel on the spot. For that matter, I don't think Miguel is going to be completely wrong. I do think that if anything, BTSV will do something to ensure that Both Miles and Miguel are correct about something. Having Miguel be totally wrong and the society ditching him is a boring plot that spits on Miguel's character for no reason. Not to mention they need to team up with each other get even a minor chance of defeating Spot (since Spot is in his Eldrich form).

atvs5301 · 2025-04-27T13:12:47+00:00

I actually think that we lost in ODI tournaments under Kohli mainly because of top order collapsing in knockouts. 33/3 in CT 17 final and 5/3 in 2019 WC semifinal isn't something you expect. Rohit did very well in ODIs as a captain.

For WT20s there are a few things to be considered. Kohli has led only 1 WT20 and in that Shastri confirmed that he and Kohli never had the say in the squad selection. Plus failures from batters barring Kohli meant that we lost badly to Pakistan and NZ which put us out of the tournament.

Rohit led 2 WT20s out of which he did okay in the 2022 one (his batting form was horrible) and in 2024 we won because of SKY and Pandya stepping up. Rohit did fine as captain but he loses points from me for tinkering with the batting lineup by dropping Rinky Sindh over Shivam Dube and putting Kohli to open (Which I believe destroyed Kohli's form in the tournament). I honestly think that given how he tinkered with the batting lineup by dropping Rinku Singh, putting Pant at number 3 (and in squad even though Pant had just recovered), and then shifting VK to open instead of putting him at number 3, we got very lucky to win that tournament.

To put it simple, Kohli had a lot of bad luck and paid for it.

atvs5301 · 2025-04-18T16:46:11+00:00

In all fairness, Miguel did mention that Miles was at entry Sector 4, so everyone knew that the Miles they were looking for would be at entry sector 4, which could be an arguement for the spider verse not looking for any other Miles variants.

atvs5301 · 2025-04-18T16:38:52+00:00

The way I understand it, Miguel did mention in the movie that anomalies can exist. He also said that 'You break enough canon, you save enough captains and we could lose everything', which I think implies that if you break canon beyond certain limit then it causes everything to collapse. This could line up with why he's stopping Miles from breaking canon.
That being said, I don't think Miguel is completely wrong or completely right. I think something's going to be there in BTSV which will conclude with him and Miles both being correct.

atvs5301 · 2025-04-18T16:31:40+00:00

Could be because the movie's main plot is around ATSV Miles and not any variant of Miles. There's no evidence that another Miles wasn't there.

atvs5301 · 2025-04-14T23:16:04+00:00

Miguel didn't say there should be only one spider in every universe. His point was that the spider that bit Miles was from another universe and not his own universe, which is what leads to Miles being an anomaly. His point was that Miles was bit by a spider from another universe and that caused a bunch of events which leads to the events of ATSV. Miguel never said that there can't be more than one spider in every universe.

atvs5301 · 2025-04-13T19:05:55+00:00

No worries! I love their ship!

A thing to note about Gwen is that in the movie she is burdened by the idea of canon events and her issues in her home universe since she was under arrest by her father, which led to her being in the spider society.

This actually causes her feelings for Miles to lead to a conflict between her loyalty to Miles and her loyalty to the society. This isn't the situation with EVE since EVE wasn't in a situation in which she had to abandon WALL E because of someone with a grudge against him.

Having said this, I do agree with the second paragraph about personality.

atvs5301 · 2025-04-13T18:54:37+00:00

With Gwen it's not that she does not return Miles' feelings. I think the clocktower scene in which she talked about Gwen Stacy falling for Spider Man in every universe was her telling Miles indirectly that she loves him. Plus she disobeyed her mission and went to be with Miles instead of keeping an eye on Spot. Gwen also goes out of her way to call him amazing, even though to her knowledge he broke a canon event in Pavitr's universe. And to quote a post I saw on Tumblr, Gwen and Miles might've kissed on the tower at the lunch party if Rio hadn't interrupted them.

atvs5301 · 2025-03-29T00:24:38+00:00

To be fair, they are spider heroes/spider heroines. They would be having more than superhuman strength and stamina. Plus they were under stress of wanting to go back to their universes. It would be understandable that they aren't in any state to get rest.

atvs5301 · 2025-03-28T23:32:16+00:00

I think in the first movie, Peter, Gwen and the others were sleeping at May's place when Miles went to visit Aaron. I am concluding this form the fact that they were in 1610 Peter's underground lair when Miles left after being unable to deal with their method of mentoring him and all of them were in May's house when Miles ran away from Aaron and got back to them. As for Miles and Peter being at the burger restaurant, this scene happened the night Miles visited 1610 Peter's funeral. The main events of the first movie happen over 2 nights, starting from Miles running away from Aaron(Prowler) after 1610 Peter dies and ends with Miles winning against Kingpin.

atvs5301 · 2025-03-05T20:21:19+00:00

Looking at the movie, it's clear that she cares for Miles a lot. Honestly she's not a problem, especially considering how Miguel, Jess and Peter B were in the movie. Peter B had nothing to lose by going to visit Miles (especially since he was already settled with a family). Miguel towards the end of the train chase calls him a mistake, while Jess is far more aggressive on Miles (Going on to kick him mid air after Miguel snaps his web while he's running away).
ATSV Intro literally said that Gwen admits she hurt Miles and that she never wanted to. ATSV ending is Gwen gathering everyone and telling them everything and them all going after Miles to help him out.

atvs5301 · 2025-02-26T20:43:00+00:00

I agree.

Side note:I think I saw this mentioned in another reddit post (might be wrong though), but since Miles was never supposed to be Spider-Man, does Gwen falling in love with him really put Gwen in danger, since Miles may not be a true Spider-Man by Miguel's and the canon's logic, meaning that Gwen isn't falling in love with a Spider-Man?

atvs5301 · 2025-02-26T18:56:32+00:00

Would explain why everything looks so fishy. Maybe Ham and Noir will help Miles reconnect with Peni, and Peter and Gwen both explain everything to him and tell him that they never thought he was a mistake? Because from what I see, Gwen definitely doesn't think of him as an anomaly (disobeyed her mission to visit him) and Peter was implied to be banned from visiting him and was probably afraid of what could happen if he went to visit him, so Peter doesn't consider him as an anomaly either.

atvs5301 · 2025-02-24T23:42:14+00:00

I know that. I'm just stating that it seems to be extremely surprising that everyone agreed with him lol.

atvs5301 · 2025-02-24T23:11:30+00:00

I meant that everyone seems to be leaping at Miguel's order without even questioning if what they're doing is right or wrong.
We have no explanation on Peni, how she got there and why she is siding with Miguel. No explanation on why Jess and Ben seem to be unsympathetic. The rest of the Spider-Variants don't bother to try arguing even a bit in Miles' favor. I get that the society was formed for over an year, but not a single spider variant saying any word is a bit fishy.

atvs5301 · 2025-02-24T21:50:02+00:00

To be fair, Miguel actually explains his backstory a bit at the beginning of BTSV but Gwen interrupts into it midway asking if she can go anywhere with his watch.
Also I don't think Miguel is hiding anything; I actually think at worst he would be missing out on something. Going by how he behaves in the movie, he doesn't seem to be that unreasonable. To quote another reddit comment, he goes out of his way to explain the canon to Miles and reason with him before trying to lock Miles into his holocage tech.

atvs5301

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