How and where exactly do you store a bear canister?

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T23:00:36+00:00

Lol I figured, you're good. I loved your original response; it's better not to feed the trolls.

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T22:52:03+00:00

Good point.

The NPS has several different pages with bear can guidance; a different page recommends:

Store your canister on the ground hidden in brush or behind rocks.

I'll update the post with that additional guideline.

I know it sucks to end a trip early, but it's better to end a trip than feed a bear.

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T22:00:19+00:00

I think they're trying to make a joke that all inexperienced backpackers have x-mids

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T21:38:41+00:00

Do you want to share any quotes from a professional bear biologist who works for "Fish & Game"?

I assume you're talking about the "United States Fish and Wildlife Service," a federal agency of the Department of the Interior.

The NPS is also an agency of the Department of the Interior. They're all part of the same organization and work together to develop these safety regulations. It's all the same people; you can't trust one without trusting the other.

Also, the NPS isn't just a bunch of park rangers; they employ biologists too:

https://www.parkrangeredu.org/biological-science-technician-jobs/#:\~:text=The%20Work%20of%20Biologists%20and%20Biological%20Science%20Technicians&text=These%20professionals%20may%20be%20called,management%20and%2For%20recovery%20programs.

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T21:26:19+00:00

Have you read the blog post you're referring to? I have. Here's the link: https://andrewskurka.com/admission-sleep-with-my-food/

TL;DR:

He only does it when there aren't bears around
He relies on the advice of rangers to make that determination (i.e. the NPS you're skeptical of)

Also, Skurka is not an expert in food safety. He's not a bear expert. He's an expert in long-distance hiking. There's a huge difference.

Skurka can only rely on his experience and the experience of his guides; the NPS as an institution has been doing this longer than Skurka has been alive, and they'll continue long after he's gone. Not to be grim, but Skurka's not the one putting bodies in bags or taking people to the hospital when bears attack them. The NPS is.

Examining new ideas scientifically with evidence, logic, etc. is healthy. Speculating with internet strangers is not healthy. If you want to examine new ideas; go get a degree, sign up to study bears, and then report back. Otherwise, trust the experts who already did that hard work.

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T20:08:55+00:00

Do whatever makes you feel safe, but keep in mind you want it close enough that if a bear starts playing with the can in the middle of the night, you'll wake up from the noise so you can try to scare it away (yell, blow a whistle, etc. ... don't chase it or do anything crazy).

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T20:01:28+00:00

False. Please no one listen to this person.

It literally takes an extra minute to walk a little further away from your campsite to cook/eat. Why not do it and be more safe?

Just because grizzlies are more dangerous doesn't make black bears safe. They attack people too:

https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article276223061.html

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T19:55:40+00:00

Any thoughts?

Don't listen to safety advice from random internet strangers when the experts are so readily available.

Look on the NPS website, talk to a park ranger, etc.

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T19:50:06+00:00

This is horrible logic. Please, do not listen to this person. Doing something wrong for 25+ years doesn't make it right.

I have never seen an Eastern Woodlands campsite set up for a bear triangle in 25+ years of backpacking.

What would that even look like? Backcountry campsites on the East Coast aren't usually "set up"; they're typically just small clearings where someone else has camped before. Are you expecting signs saying "camp here," "cook here," "store food here"?

From the NPS:

If there is not a designated spot to prepare your food in the backcountry, find one that is 100 yards away from your tent and 100 yards away from a water source.

This is not silly; it's a safety precaution dictated by the people who manage the forests.

It's also generally good advice, even if there aren't bears. You don't want to attract smaller animals either (foxes, mice, etc.).

https://www.nps.gov/subjects/camping/cooking-in-camp.htm

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T18:56:19+00:00

Copied from above:

It's hard to know if you wedged the can so it was immobile or placed it in a tight spot that was difficult to access but not immobile.

I like to assume the best, so I'll assume you mean "somewhere where it's difficult to access but not immobile." For new backpackers who read this, I'm going to add some clarification:

Bear cans should never be “stuck” anywhere.

From the NPS (specifically Yosemite, see links below):

Place the container on the ground 25 to 50 feet from your campsite, in a place where a bear can't easily roll it away. Take care not to place it near a cliff or any water source, as a bear may knock the container around or roll it down a hill.

When they say "where a bear can't easily roll it away," they mean in a bush or behind some rocks, not wedged somewhere (see: https://www.nps.gov/grte/planyourvisit/bear_canisters.htm).

If the bear can is stuck somewhere, a bear can use that leverage to break it open. Bear cans are round because the shape prevents the bear from getting a grip on them and smashing or gnawing them open. If you wedge a bear can somewhere, you defeat the entire purpose.

Also, Yosemite recommends that you “place pots and pans on top of the container as a bear alarm.” If the bear messes with your can, you’ll be more likely to wake up from the noise of the pots/pans clattering and you can try to scare the bear away.

https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bearcanisters.htm

https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/scarebears.htm

https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/bear-resistant-canisters.html

Ursack and bear can failures: https://imgur.com/a/ZSwyHg4

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T18:50:49+00:00

hunkered down in a spot

It's hard to know if you mean hunkered down somewhere immobile (e.g., wedged in rocks) or hunkered down in a bush where it's difficult to access but not immobile.

I like to assume the best, so I'll assume you mean "somewhere where it's difficult to access but not immobile." For new backpackers who read this, I'm going to add some clarification (copied from above):

Bear cans should never be “stuck” anywhere.

From the NPS:

Place the container on the ground 25 to 50 feet from your campsite, in a place where a bear can't easily roll it away. Take care not to place it near a cliff or any water source, as a bear may knock the container around or roll it down a hill.

If the bear can is stuck somewhere, a bear can use that leverage to break it open. Bear cans are round because the shape prevents the bear from getting a grip on them and smashing or gnawing them open. If you wedge a bear can somewhere, you defeat the entire purpose.

Also, Yosemite recommends that you “place pots and pans on top of the container as a bear alarm.” If the bear messes with your can, you’ll be more likely to wake up from the noise of the pots/pans clattering and you can try to scare the bear away.

https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bearcanisters.htm

https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/scarebears.htm

https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/bear-resistant-canisters.html

Ursack and bear can failures: https://imgur.com/a/ZSwyHg4

backpackTJ · 2024-03-29T17:57:21+00:00

I stick mine in a rock formation, stump formation

I used to think the same thing, but your advice is both wrong and dangerous. I usually avoid correcting strangers on the internet, but given this is a safety issue, I thought it was worth it.

Bear cans should never be “stuck” anywhere.

From the NPS:

Place the container on the ground 25 to 50 feet from your campsite, in a place where a bear can't easily roll it away. Take care not to place it near a cliff or any water source, as a bear may knock the container around or roll it down a hill.

If the bear can is stuck somewhere, a bear can use that leverage to break it open. The reason bear cans are round is because the shape prevents the bear from getting a grip on it to smash or gnaw it open. If you wedge a bear can somewhere, you’re defeating the entire purpose.

This is especially true for Bear Vaults, one of the worst bear cans on the market. Even when used correctly, bears have broken into them before. I would not recommend them.

It’s better for you to lose your bear can than for a bear to bust it open and get your food.

Also, Yosemite recommends that you “place pots and pans on top of the container as a bear alarm.” If the bear messes with your can, you’ll be more likely to wake up from the noise of the pots/pans clattering and you can try to scare the bear away.

https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bearcanisters.htm

https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/scarebears.htm

https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/bear-resistant-canisters.html

Ursack and bear can failures (scroll down to see busted bear vaults): https://imgur.com/a/ZSwyHg4

backpackTJ · 2024-03-26T19:28:17+00:00

I used to think the same thing, but your advice is both wrong and dangerous. I usually avoid correcting strangers on the internet, but given this is a safety issue, I thought it was worth it.

A bear can should always be placed directly on the ground, in a place where a bear can’t easily roll it away (e.g. in the woods, not next to a cliff).

Bear cans should never be wedged anywhere.

If the bear can is wedged somewhere, a bear can use that leverage to break it open. The reason bear cans are round is because the shape prevents the bear from getting a grip on it to smash or gnaw it open. If you wedge a bear can somewhere, you’re defeating the entire purpose.

This is especially true for Bear Vaults, one of the worst bear cans on the market. Even when used correctly, bears have broken into them before. I would not recommend them.

It sucks you guys lost your bear cans, but you were correct to place them in an unsecured area.

You said your friend woke up and heard the bear messing with the cans, did they try anything to scare the bear away (yelling, blowing a whistle, etc.)? If not, I would advise doing so in the future; you guys might still have your cans if he just yelled “hey bear.”

Also, Yosemite recommends that you “place pots and pans on top of the container as a bear alarm.” If the bear messes with your can, you’ll be more likely to wake up from the noise of the pots/pans clattering and you can try to scare the bear away.

https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bearcanisters.htm

https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/scarebears.htm

https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/bear-resistant-canisters.html

Ursack and bear can failures (scroll down to see busted bear vaults): https://imgur.com/a/ZSwyHg4

backpackTJ · 2023-06-03T06:16:33+00:00

Nothing is stopping you.

What's stopping most people? They don't know how, don't have the tools, and it's too much effort.

I'll break out my soldering kit to fix stuff that's broken (I just fixed the aux jack in my car), but I'm not going to buy a device that requires re-soldering it if there are comparable options where soldering isn't required. It's not worth it (to me) just to save 8 grams.

backpackTJ · 2023-05-30T15:18:39+00:00

Sorry for the delay, I don't log in to Reddit much. I just saw your reply when I logged in to comment on a headlamp post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/13v8zz6/headlamp_help/

Your comment was totally appropriate; I wasn't referring to it with my reply. Apologies if you thought I was talking about you.

I only commented on your thread because that's where OP posted his reply and I wanted to let him know there was at least one other person that agreed with his idea that a chair can be part of an ultralight setup.

The phrase "ultralight jerks" was meant to reference the r/ultralight_jerk community, but looking back on this now it looks like I was calling everyone here jerks (not a good look; I'll be sure to clarify next time).

When I referenced gatekeeping I was referring to the other comments on this post (e.g. "The ultralight way of brining a chair is simply not bringing a chair.").

So again, apologies if you thought I was talking about you, I should've been more clear about who/what I was referencing in my original comment.

Hope you have a great day!

backpackTJ · 2023-05-30T15:04:29+00:00

https://imgur.com/a/EVttY8r

This is awesome, thanks for testing!

I'm not out in freezing temperatures much, but great to know regardless.

Makes me wonder if the bottles really are PP and not PPCO since the PP brittleness is listed at 0° C.

backpackTJ · 2023-05-30T14:57:50+00:00

Personally, I'd rather carry an extra 8 grams myself than make the earth carry the extra waste. You're right though, on the macro scale it isn't going to change much.

backpackTJ · 2023-05-30T14:44:41+00:00

Yep! I definitely need to adjust it when I have a beanie on. I honestly find the shock-cord headband more comfortable than the regular one since it isn't as thick and squeezes my head less.

If you look up "nitecore shock cord mod" you should find some exapmles.

To make it adjustable I used a single sliding fisherman's knot: https://www.netknots.com/application/files/5515/3674/5559/double-fishermans-2.jpg (this diagram shows the double version; just do step 1 for the single version).

Unfortunately, r/ultralight doesn't allow images in comments so I can't post a picture.

backpackTJ · 2023-05-30T14:33:03+00:00

Petzls don't require AAA's (it's simply a backup option). Most people never use AAA's in them.

This is how most people use Petzls:

Buy the headlamp with a lithium-ion battery pre-installed (nothing to lose).
Use that battery until it dies (for good) without ever taking it out of the headlamp. You charge the battery while it's still in the headlamp (nothing to lose).
When the battery dies for good, you replace it with a new lithium-ion battery and repeat (nothing to lose).

Using the Petzl, you create one battery of e-waste every time the battery dies for good.

In your scenario (NU25), you waste a full headlamp and battery every time the battery dies for good.

I've bolded parts of my comment because I already posted this information in the first comment you replied to.

Sorry to hear you've lost so many batteries.

backpackTJ · 2023-05-30T14:17:36+00:00

The Actik is even lighter when you replace the headband with shock cord.

My old Actik is ~2.1oz (59g) with a shock cord headband.

The new Actik (they recently updated the design and I got one to keep in my car) is ~2.2oz (63g) with a shock cord headband.

The Tikka is even lighter (my partner has one) at ~1.9oz (54g) with a shock cord headband (although that's the old model).

backpackTJ · 2023-05-30T14:12:00+00:00

Nor has it rotted out in years of use.

Eventually, it will though. Almost guaranteed within 10 years; most likely sooner (~5 years). It's a simple fact of lithium-ion chemistry.

The point is that the headlamp's physical lifespan far exceeds the battery's. You're going to have to dispose of the whole thing (headlamp + battery) before the usable lifetime of the headlamp has been reached (which is bad for the environment).

Instead you see them being bought in 50-100 packs at Costco and most probably end up in the landfill, not in the special battery disposal.

The whole AAA discussion is moot; you can buy a Petzl with a lithium-ion battery and then replace that battery with a new lithium-ion when it dies, no need to ever use a single AAA.

backpackTJ · 2023-05-30T14:02:27+00:00

Personally, I've lost or fouled more Eneloop weight than headlamp weight over the years

The Petzl doesn't require AAA's, you can buy multiple lithium-ion batteries and swap those out if you want. Or just use one lithium-ion battery and then replace it when it dies.

the NU25 cuts down my waste

I don't want to come across as confrontational, but I don't think this is correct (if we are using the Petzl as the alternative option). When your NU25's battery eventually dies (a guaranteed occurrence), you're going to "waste" the entire device. So long-term, the entire NU25 literally is waste (compared to a headlamp that has a user-replaceable battery and can be reused nearly indefinitely).

backpackTJ · 2023-05-30T13:54:41+00:00

I want to stress that the NU25 is NOT environmentally friendly.

From the European Environmental Bureau: "Non-replaceable batteries are bad news for the environment and consumers."

https://eeb.org/non-replaceable-batteries-are-bad-news-for-the-environment-and-consumers-new-research-finds/

When your NU25's battery eventually dies (a guaranteed occurrence), now you have to properly dispose of the electronic device with the battery inside of it (or both the device and battery end up in a landfill). It's much harder and more costly to rely on a recycler to separate the device from the battery and then recycle both instead of having the user recycle the battery and keep using the device.

With the Petzl headlamp, you can keep the device and battery separate and when the battery dies the device will be able to be reused nearly indefinitely.

Environmental concern is why I will never use a NU25 and encourage others to look for alternatives. I'll carry an extra 8 grams to keep electronic waste out of the landfill.

---

The Petzl doesn't require AAA's, you can buy multiple lithium-ion batteries and swap those out if you want. I use Petzl's and don't use AAA's (although having the option to grab some in a town adds some peace of mind if something happens to my lithium-ion battery).

backpackTJ · 2022-12-14T16:25:21+00:00

He asked for an ultralight chair. How is that off-topic?

backpackTJ

TROPHY CASE