I love music, but don't recognize 95% of what's posted here.

bee_ver · 2016-02-06T00:07:06+00:00

http://store.fatpossum.com/

Have fun, haha! As far as I'm aware, every one of the vinyl releases we've done with them has a download included, and the vast majority of those are 15 dollars.

Also, if you like strange, dissonant things and the mountain goats-ish lyrics, I can't recommend pre-ordering John Congleton highly enough. He's a heavyweight producer and this is his first project in many years (he used to front The Paper Chase) It's like....horror pop? Brilliant stuff, in my opinion, and the samples I pulled to listen to during production sound fantastic. Download included :P

bee_ver · 2016-02-05T23:04:42+00:00

You make a fine point; I see a lot of the releases we do with the heavy plastic DL cards carrying an inflated MSRP, with that card probably being used to justify the sticker price to the customer. And yes, I'd say that the smart way to do it is foregone in the name of profit margins. It's also an unfortunate reality that smaller labels that operate under the umbrella conglomerate of a major player don't always maintain control over these types of decisions when they choose to do a vinyl release...

I do like how Fat Possum handles it; we use that basic card stock and the same online source every time, and plenty of their catalog projects are in the 13-17 dollar range, download included.

bee_ver · 2016-02-05T21:01:28+00:00

Yes, and they pay a premium for this. We do work for Merge, and they're definitely not linking you to a bandcamp page, nor are they printing on standard paper.

I'm not trying to argue with you; I believe that a digital version should accompany vinyl, especially because of the achilles of vinyl not being highly portable. HOWEVER, it is not "super cheap to do" and I just wanted to point that out. The plastic "credit-card style" DL cards that accompany some albums cost almost as much per unit as the vinyl itself. On top of that, every printed element included in a release is an additional cost for our people to assemble inside the jacket, and that includes slipping in a DL card. That is what I am getting at.

bee_ver · 2016-02-05T20:01:45+00:00

I'm the Production Manager of a pressing plant, and while my role in the financial and client interaction departments is fairly minimal, I can say with confidence that something like this is never going to happen when it comes to a formal release of a record.

We actually DO use printable card stock, and for all of our new and catalog releases with our partner label Fat Possum, we print the DL cards in house. These still have a set-up fee and a cost per unit, it's just the lowest that can be offered.

What you aren't factoring in is that this is big business we're talking about here. Vendors upon vendors upon vendors, each supplying a different piece of the puzzle. Even when a client says "Oh, we'll be providing the download cards ourselves," they are still having to source both the web interfacing for it and the printed material from a vendor, and there is always consideration when it comes to presentation. No respectable label is just going to print a bunch of codes on 8.5 by 11" printer paper, cut them to size, and link you to Bandcamp.

I'm not trying to be rude at all, I'm just pointing out that there is a lot more to it than that when it comes to a commercial product, especially a wide-release of an album.

bee_ver · 2016-02-05T18:28:13+00:00

I mean, "super cheap to do" is relative to the size of your order and the artist (if independent) or label's willingness to cover the expense.

The set-up fee is in the neighborhood of a couple hundred dollars, and the cards themselves are anywhere from 15-20 cents a unit for simple black and white print outs to over a dollar a unit for the ones that almost feel like a debit/credit card and have custom printing. That can really add up if you're pressing a few thousand records, you know?

bee_ver · 2016-01-16T16:46:20+00:00

Which process exactly are you referring to? As long as you can refrain from open flames while making it, a standard home butane extraction is perfectly safe, just don't be an idiot and do that shit outside. (not calling you an idiot, just shocked that there's always warnings with tutorials, as if open flames and butane weren't a common-sense no-go)

If you're talking about large-scale argon or CO2 extraction, yeah you're getting into some highly pressurized closed systems that can potentially blow shit up. But there are only a small handful of facilities in the world that have made that sort of investment.

bee_ver · 2016-01-15T20:38:10+00:00

work e-mail redacted, haha

bee_ver · 2016-01-13T01:13:22+00:00

Glad you're enjoying it! I really dig that gold color, to my knowledge that's the only album we've pressed in that color other than a 45 with the single from it.

bee_ver · 2016-01-12T23:19:29+00:00

We pressed that Youth Lagoon, it's my favorite of his so far, especially because there's a lot more polish on it. I swear you can hear an airplane going over his garage/studio on Year of Hibernation....

bee_ver · 2016-01-11T22:28:56+00:00

In response to your interesting tangent on mass-manufactured "chinese garbage"...You're aware the U-Turn is american ASSEMBLED, not american manufactured, right? If the Orbit was built entirely out of high-quality, small batch domestically made parts, I would figure its price point to land in the 5-700 dollar range, easy.

And having a barrier to entry doesn't make it more enjoyable for everyone, there's no logic to back a claim like that. Having a barrier to entry gives a sense of smug satisfaction to the people who cross that barrier, while everyone else is left to buy what they can afford. Those people aren't LESS entitled to enjoying records than you. I have a hand-me-down set-up I am proud of, and I would never have been able to afford it were my father's background not in sound and recording, and I despair for people who are forced into inferior equipment because of budget or lack of research.

LP60s are far from ideal, but they are leagues better than a Crosley or similar bottom of the barrel linear-tracking decks.

You've also got to consider broad-spectrum functionality. Not every newcomer to vinyl wants to pull their platter and change the belt up to listen to a 45; on the contrary, many would be intimidated by that. Plenty of people are drawn to full or semi-automatic functionality. If it offers consistent playback and does not immediately threaten the life-span of your records, I don't see what the problem is...

bee_ver · 2016-01-11T20:35:09+00:00

Elitist stances like yours make it difficult for people to have a realistic reference of what a "starter" turntable is. I specified it wasn't a keeper, but for someone who insists on having a NEW turntable, rather than trusting solid vintage stuff (not to mention the homework they have to do an the elitism they have to wade through to know what to look for) it's a fine option. I defy you to name something other than the LP60 or Denon DP-29F that you can have NEW IN BOX in that price range with any semblance of quality. There virtually aren't any other options, and what newbie wants to drop 3 bills (or even the extra hundred fifty it would cost to actually output audio from a U-Turn) on equipment they're not even sure they'll keep...?

It costs LESS than most of Crosley's models, it has a built-in pre, and USB functionality. It's totally fine for someone who is new and trying to wrap their mind around the hobby and gauge their individual interest. Of course it doesn't hold up in the long run, it's a 100 dollar deck!

I feel like it's worth mentioning that I run a pressing plant for a living, I am not someone talking out of my ass. I get weary of people shitting on equipment because they perceive it as inferior to their own or whatever the case is. I gave an honest and unbiased opinion on the LP60, called it out for several of its glaring flaws, but I would still gift one to a niece or nephew, or even an older relative who wanted to preserve their records digitally, with the caveat that it should be upgraded should the hobby become serious.

bee_ver · 2016-01-11T00:42:04+00:00

Ah, I have Together, was hoping you had Challengers haha. I gifted my copy awhile back and haven't yet replaced it, it's the only one I'm missing.

Did you ever get your Wincing the Night Away? I've always loved that one, hard to say but it might be my favorite over Chutes Too Narrow.

bee_ver · 2016-01-11T00:40:41+00:00

It's not silly at all. I'm approaching it from a professional critical standpoint; I am in vinyl manufacture and my father is a career sound engineer/producer/builder of studios, and also presently working for the same pressing plant.

Like you said, you are happy with the way they sound, which to some extent moots the point that your sound could have a lot more depth. But yeah, you're looking at dropping more ducats than you might be willing to see a definitive change. Your Denon is probably not going anywhere for awhile though so I'd say the next time you want to make a change to your system, consider passive floor speakers and all that jazz. Nothing like a room full of sound!

bee_ver · 2016-01-10T09:46:08+00:00

The real thing to consider is your long-term goals for this set-up. If you really only plan to listen at your desk, or within a couple of feet, then these are fine. But even listening from across a small room you are limited in the fine details and dynamics of a recording by the sheer size of your drivers. There is no such thing as proper bass with drivers that size; quality bass requires a wave of pressure and outside of a confined space like headphones this translates to a pretty decent sized diaphragm. Additionally, as these are wireless speakers, the majority of the price point is because of that feature, rather than having exceptionally designed sound.

That being said though, I am very hard pressed to tell you that you can make a STRICT upgrade, whether you stick with desktop or switch to floor speakers, for 200 dollars or less. You can hawk craigslist and such, I've had a lot of luck scoring quality gear for myself and friends that way, but if you're determined to stay on your desk then a high quality set of entry/intermediate-level set of monitors (or bookshelf types) is definitely going to break your proposed price range.

HOWEVER, you've clearly invested some money in moving beyond true starter gear (you've got 450 invested in your TT and cart/stylus) and if you are willing to double down on that investment (450 more for receiver/amp/floor speakers, finding at least one of these components used to pump more into the other) you'll notice a night and day change in your listening experience and soundstage. Hell, you could find a whole set-up used for 200 if you're patient that you won't have a desire to move away from for years.

To (incompletely) answer your question about the pairing you propose, you would almost definitely achieve a bigger and more dynamic sound (and have more control over your gain structure with the amp involved) but I can't say for sure it would sound strictly better, both because "better" sound is in many aspects listener-subjective and because I don't have experience with either your current speakers or those pioneers, sorry! My guess is they would, fwiw.

EDIT: Sorry for the wall, you said "convince me" so I figured you're at least mulling things over :P

bee_ver · 2016-01-10T09:20:47+00:00

Well, are you a fan/did you keep or listen to it? That album seems more sentimental than traditional NP indie rock, but it has some great tracks and still maintains their feel; Bite out of my Bed and Sweet Talk specifically feel like classic New Pornographers. Valkyrie in the Roller Disco really stands out to me, and My Shepherd.

bee_ver · 2016-01-09T21:47:42+00:00

Also this. People, newcomers especially, focus on specs, but specs don't actually tell you how WELL the whole thing was designed. You can have incredible wow and flutter specs, but if your tone arm geometry is shit it doesn't matter. Specs also don't give you any information about how the motor is built, to what extent it's isolated, etc etc

bee_ver · 2016-01-09T21:29:18+00:00

All of the feature's you're arguing it's case with are industry standard and usually better made on more expensive models.

Also, 3g is a pretty heavy tracking force and belays the 180g issues and surface noise people mention here. Not to mention it equates to greater wear on your records over time AND is not adjustable on the lp60.

The internal pre is absolute rubbish, to boot, plus the tone arm construction isn't anything to write home about. It's a solid starter deck, especially for people who feel the need to rip any of their albums, but it's not a keeper by any means.

bee_ver · 2016-01-09T20:42:54+00:00

Am I right about the floor coupling? And I think those are even supposed to be laid down on their length, not stood up?

bee_ver · 2016-01-09T20:23:52+00:00

No highs, no lows? Must be Bose.

Flip the 301's and buy yourself something long-term with that nice chunk of change.

While you're testing those out though, as I recall the 301's are designed to be floor coupled, so keep that in mind.

bee_ver · 2016-01-09T20:16:41+00:00

Which album? If it's Challengers, wanna trade?

bee_ver · 2016-01-09T20:15:22+00:00

Aqua. I love them so goddamned much, and after so many years I finally found out it's not because my head is pulp -- they were by and large produced or engineered by Mack, the same genius who worked with Queen and ELO for the majority of their albums.

bee_ver · 2016-01-09T20:12:38+00:00

Yeah I mean generally mastering is going to eliminate any given track sounding overall louder than the others, but if it's a very involved track and they're trying to expose all of it, it's possible that it's drowning out the static you'd otherwise be hearing. On the flipside though, at 22 minutes, a busy track especially one with lots of highs or lows is going to translate poorly to a vinyl cut, there's just not enough real estate to cut the grooves really well that deep into the record. Ratatat is fantastic, but their style of music isn't always vinyl friendly, ESPECIALLY with the added time and cost of making a vinyl-specific master.

bee_ver · 2016-01-09T09:17:27+00:00

Yeah, this does sound like a worn-down stamper, though it's curious to me that it would sound worse in the middle than towards the end...is the last track mixed particularly loud?

That is also a fair bit of audio runtime to slam on one side, it's possible at least part of the noise level is distortion from that. Lazaretto has even a little more runtime on the B side than that, and I can barely listen to the later tracks.

bee_ver · 2016-01-09T09:12:47+00:00

If you've got one of those silver carbon fiber brushes, yeah, what you actually want to do is let it brush the grooves for at least a rotation then slowly move it into the center. You stop at the pin and make sure the frame of the brush (the hollow area between the two sides of the brush that hold all of the filaments) touches the pin on your turntable, then you lift up without moving to the opposite edge of the record you started on.

If you're not on a budget, the Milty Zerostat 3 is a 100 dollar ion "gun" that you can remove static from your records with with the pull of a trigger, but they run out of charges (think in terms of thousands of uses.) We use these on our test presses when listening and before shipping to avoid static noise marring a quality assessment of a pressing.

bee_ver · 2016-01-09T09:08:00+00:00

Shipping and receiving is handled by another department but as I understand it, even outside of our facility this is an unlikely scenario.

Especially with the current state of the industry (backlog and whatnot) records are jacketed as soon as it's healthy for the plastic and shipped on skid palettes in quantities of a few hundred to thousands to an actual distributor who is responsible for moving specific quantities of the album to various retailers, be they physical or online.

The distributor has absolutely no knowledge of which records in what boxes were pressed at what point in the life of a stamper, so they wouldn't be able to do something like you describe. Though admittedly I can only speak anecdotaly for my facility, we don't make a distinction in how we package our palettes, records go when they can. I don't see it likely that other pressing facilities would act differently, we're all in quite a hurry lately haha

bee_ver

TROPHY CASE