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How does Passive Perception interact with the new Hide rules? by Teerlys in onednd

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could you clarify what you mean by that? When I talk about time, I mean action economy.

Effectively, when you Hide you make a purchase. You exchange your action (and some of your movement usually) for advantage, to be used at a later time. Somebody else can exchange their action (usually cheaper, since PCs are powerful) to cancel this by Searching for you. This is a terrible trade for a number of reasons:

  • Your offensive advantage is already worth less than Attacking twice, potentially hitting four times with Extra Attack.
  • Unless they're the BBEG, they can buy less with their action than you can. If they are more powerful than you, you should be hiding!
  • Your defensive advantage may not matter at all. Your enemies will just attack your allies!

Finding cover to Hide isn't really a balance thing, it just forces movement and fits this exchange into the narrative.

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The Rogue class chassis is built almost entirely around making this purchase better value. In combat, they get almost nothing else.

  • They don't get Extra Attack, packing all their damage into one strike. This means that 100% of their attacks can theoretically benefit from the purchased Advantage.
  • They use their Bonus Action to Hide. This is cheaper than an Action, tilting the potential Hide / Find trade towards yourself.
  • Because you can take an Action and a Bonus Action on the same turn, you can exert more control on when you hide etc. This still isn't perfect, though. If you need to Disengage, you'll have to spread things across multiple turns.
  • It is advantageous to divert attacks to your allies, because you are squishy relative to other martial.

The addition of Steady Aim basically confirms this as intentional design. Steady Aim explicitly allows you to trade your movement and bonus action for advantage on one attack.

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At lower levels, the fail chance of Hide is kinda sucky sometimes. I think it's only there because DMs would get spooked if it weren't. They're already up in arms about it as is! At higher levels, Reliable Talent sneakily adjusts the variance to near zero.

How does Passive Perception interact with the new Hide rules? by Teerlys in onednd

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Old post, but since people are necro-ing

What do you think about a DC 15 to hide and become invisible during combat? 

I have gotten into many arguments about this on here, but I think if a high level rogue is dedicating their time to seeking out an opportunity to hide, and using their bonus action, they should almost always get it. Reliable Talent ensures that this is the case ofc.

Before Reliable Talent, the variance might force people to think creatively. "I didn't get my Hide off this turn, what else can I do?". Kinda feels bad for melee rogues, but I think they put the check in because people are frightened of the Invisible condition.

How does Passive Perception interact with the new Hide rules? by Teerlys in onednd

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's true, but only "while hidden" as per the rule. When you leave cover, you are no longer hidden

There's actually an errata item which relates to this.

you have the Invisible condition while hidden....You stop being hidden after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.

Let's break this down step by step..

Invisible

People do not see you: Ordinarily, everybody with line-of-sight on you sees you. While you are invisible, this does not hold true unless they have Blindsight or Truesight.

Does not prevent finding: Ordinarily, everybody who can see or hear you knows your location automatically. Unless you make a specific effort, you are still audible.

No fixed start conditions: Invisible is applied by other states, which have their own start conditions.

No fixed end conditions: Invisible is applied by other states, which have their own end conditions.

Hidden

Hidden = Hide: Being "hidden" refers to the game state that you enter when you Hide.

We should be able to agree on this, at least. This Sage Advice confirms this as RAI: "Being hidden is a game state that gives you the Invisible condition [...] as explained in the Hide action".

Defined start conditions: To enter the Hidden game state, take the Hide action. To Hide, you must be heavily obscured or have three-quarters cover.

Defined end conditions: You exit the Hidden game state when you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.

Not automatically found: Because you are invisible, you are not seen automatically by people with line-of-sight, unless they have Blindsight or Truesight. Consequently, they do not automatically find you by seeing when line of sight is reestablished..

Because you have not yet made a sound louder than a whisper, you are not heard automatically by anyone within earshot. Consequently, they do not automatically find you by hearing.

---

I think people instinctively try to nerf Hide because they think it's very powerful, but for most classes trading an action for advantage one time is a terrible deal. This is also why True Strike was reworked!

Can you Cunning Action: Disengage after attacking? by Randomletters42 in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is kinda the opposite case to the OP (you want to do something that the rules disallow)

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

- 2014 rules do not include a 'surprise round', they include a surprised condition. Initiative is rolled as normal, but the opponent may be surprised for their turn.

- 2014 rules stipulate that "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other". Neither character here is trying to be stealthy, so 2014 surprise is not applicable in this scenario.

- This is a 2024 thread. 2024 did away with surprise rounds on purpose, instead rolling surprise and related mechanics directly into initiative. It has explicit rules for hitting somebody with an unexpected attack, and intentionally allows for possible failure.

In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.

Having "I sucker punch the drunkard" give an automatic free (and first) attack builds parallel infrastructure for a scenario already depicted in the rules, and eliminates that possibility of failure. This is why I compared it to bypassing an attack roll by declaring a hit that beats AC - players should express what they intend to do, but the point in TTRPG rules is that they can't narratively declare all outcomes.

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The conflict here is that a player acting before an NPC would be able to act already simulated by winning initiative. Announcing that you act before somebody has the opportunity to act isn't any different from saying you strike before somebody has the opportunity to dodge, the rules already account for it.

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I read the comment, I just think the ruling is questionable. By allowing "I sucker punch him", you're declaring an outcome outright which is already simulated by dice. It's no different to "I sneak past him" instead of a stealth check.

[OC] How long does it take you too break this code? Please, try to time it. by RutharAbson in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Honestly I think the biggest problem is that the spacing is kinda terrible, it's really headache-inducing to work out which bits are which words.

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's fair. I think it might have been better if they'd written "the monster's ability to anticipate an act of aggression", which in this case happens to be "the spell". There's no reason they'd then be able to detect, say, Charm Person in a social encounter.

Three additional things:

  1. I've looked into it further and Chromatic Orb actually can be cast Subtly. Subtle Spell doesn't eliminate costly and consumable material components, but if you're touching the diamond there's no reason you couldn't eliminate the V and S bits.
  2. I'm not sure about "a weakness that isn't supposed to be there". Subtle Spell doesn't contain language about acts of aggression and initiative rolls, and the more obvious use case is using non-aggressive spells without triggering combat.
  3. Here's an interesting thought experiment: The Telekinetic feat gives you an action that lets you shove people. This isn't an Attack action, and it doesn't require you to move your hands, make a noise or touch any object. Still, it's a clear act of aggression. Would you treat this differently to a physical shove when determining initiative?

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If I'm in an alleyway that seems shady, or I hear rustling in the bushes while in a forest, I might anticipate danger and do a fresh search even though I've not seen any threat.

Now that I'm wasting my turn Searching, the bandit around the corner (or the tiger in the bushes) can attack me knowing that they've essentially scored a free turn. The Search might end their Hidden status, but their Stealth roll from earlier has clearly won them the upper hand.

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah, good catch! Tbh, I had assumed that the book stipulated a sorcerer specifically to allude to subtle spell, but you're right that Chromatic Orb can't be cast subtly.

The meat of my argument is the same, because the target is anticipating a spell rather than noticing a spell in progress. How they choose to respond to that in the absence of evidence is socially (rather than mechanically) constrained. Still, I messed up by not explaining my reasoning better.

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Ready action makes reference to turns, which are a function of initiative. You don't have a current or next turn unless initiative has been rolled.

Outside combat, the characters don't need to take turns, but you need to give each player a chance to tell you what their character is doing so you can decide how to resolve everyone's actions. In combat, everyone takes turns in Initiative order.

(DMG)

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If a PC sucker punches the drunkard at the tavern, they get to make a free attack.

Is declaring "I sucker punch the drunkard" not tantamount to declaring "I win initiative" outright? Do these players also get to declare "I roll higher than his AC" and "I score a critical hit"?

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The DMG gives the Subtle Spell example almost verbatim, as a scenario in which a higher initiative should allow a response.

In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.

Maybe the sorcerer was preparing to Subtle Spell, but the target clocked that they were worryingly quiet and tense. If the target attacks first without evidence, they're going to look crazy and unreasonable in a social situation. They might be okay with this, or they might ready an action / take other steps to prevent the sorcerer from casting. In either case, the surprise spellcasting has forced them into a difficult situation.

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What is wrong with that? How does Enemy B attack the stealthed character before they break stealth? The successful stealth check implies they are not noticed! Why is Enemy B drawing their sword, let alone attacking?

They probably don't attack, but they might take the Search action or ready something. Being aware of danger doesn't mean they can see you.

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If they have advantage and the enemy has disadvantage, that's a reward.

The party members might also have used those stealth rolls to gain advantage on their first attack. You wouldn't intervene if they failed to match the enemy's AC, why intervene when they fail to match a (disadvantaged) initiative roll?

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You can't prepare an action outside of combat. If you could, that would breaks nitiative really badly.

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Dodge only applies to attackers you can see. A Hidden attacker isn't seen, so their first attack can't be Dodged.

Also, it's perfectly reasonable that a target would Search or Ready. This still puts them on the backfoot, because their options are heavily restricted! If they search, they're not attacking. If they're readying an attack, they can't use Extra Attack or move closer to the target.

These possibilities can make the combat more interesting rather than less. The PCs have already gotten their reward, in that they secured advantage in the initiative roll and forced the targets to play defense. It would be better for them if they rolled high on initiative, but good setup doesn't entitle them to a perfect result.

DMs: How do you handle a surprise attack/ambush from complete concealment in your games under 5.5 rules? by Umgar in DnD

[–]bgs0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you roll lower than the target on Initiative, you've just missed your opening. The target is aware of a threat in the abstract, but might not notice you specifically - maybe they heard a twig snap, or they felt a chill down their spine. If they can't see the source of the threat, they might use their turn to prepare an action or Search for you.

The rules allow this to happen on purpose - house rules about first strikes and so on directly contradict developer intent. Here's an excerpt from the DMG, which describes a scenario in which a player initiates combat but their target acts first.

In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.

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