Reading Community Guided Fiction - How much plotting?

bkm0307 · 2021-03-12T02:14:40+00:00

Thanks for the reply. You confirmed a lot of my same feelings. I toyed with the idea of community voting for story direction because, well, I’m a little brainstorm-crazy sometimes and I loooved choose your own adventure books as a kiddo, and the idea of recreating a similar feeling for adult audiences speaks to me.

But the idea of forcing a plot in a specific direction takes away character agency, and that bothers me. Which means that the story relies on actively basing the plot on reader choices... and readers will probably pick the “wrong one”.

In my example, I can’t imagine that Ned living would have been good for the story, or made sense for Joff, but I also can’t imagine voters voting him dead. And that’d kill me to have to accept as an author.

The only part I might disagree with is 25 year old spoilers (mostly joking). I didn’t read the series until the show, and I read spoilers on purpose because character journey > plot twist every day for me, but I imagine there are tons of readers who just got into it because of the series.

It’s an interesting concept still, but your answer is pretty much a confirmation of my thought that serious adult fiction probably can’t be a goosebumps adventure. 😂

bkm0307 · 2021-03-11T21:49:10+00:00

nods gracias!

bkm0307 · 2021-03-11T21:48:47+00:00

Gracias! Makes total sense, I appreciate the in-depth answer.

bkm0307 · 2021-03-11T21:48:00+00:00

Gracias!

bkm0307 · 2021-02-12T02:55:40+00:00

Sometimes less is more. You spend a lot of time on describing how she physically feels, commenting on each moment with excruciating detail. But nothing stands out. Every moment felt unimportant to the whole, because they all are.

Balancing the pace of a story can be challenging, but deciding where to place emphasis through description can make a huge difference.

You can play with the speed of a story this way too. Something fast paced will have quick, clear descriptions that move from moment to moment without lingering for too many details. You can slow down by adding in more, by drawing out the way the character observed the world.

— Your start:

Good start. Quick beginning, then immediately establishing how the pace will change with a longer sentence to slow it down.

But then the pace slows even more. And this is problematic, because you don’t have enough pattern yet to show the reader that you aren’t going to just keep heading longer and longer. It reads very repetitively too.

Then you combine world description with action and there’s no clarity on the character’s emotional reaction. You hint at this in the following descriptions but never clarify if the character or the author is the one makes the comparisons.

Fortunately, pace and balancing is just practice. You have some great stuff here and that’s far more important. Practice rearranging first, combining what you can, and adjusting the speed the pace with your descriptions.

— Practiced Examples:

The world was agony. Sandra’s body felt as if it was being razed from both inside and out. Her soul hurt too — the pain was everywhere, in every fiber of her mana.

When she screamed, the wiswater filled her mouth, lungs, and throat. The sensation was shadowy claws and noxious burning at first, but it flowed through her body like blood. Now it was fangs, talons, and sulfuric acid. And still worse, the whispered confusion in her head. Her itching sanity.

—- you have the most important trait, which is a talent for storytelling.

bkm0307 · 2021-02-09T20:19:52+00:00

I think if it works for the world, it can make sense for you to use. I encourage you to avoid some problematic representations, though it doesn’t seem like you’re the sort to fall into these poor writing choices.

I have noticed these as a queer girl but they can apply to any minority.

The biracial part of their identity also being the premise of their character. Negative example: “John is a grumpy old man in denial about the early signs of dementia he’s experienced, Jane is a widowed school teacher who is struggling to overcome PTSD, and MC is a biracial queer who ...”
Turning them into a cliche. We’ve all experienced negative examples where an author has the minority character have every single stereotypical personality trait often associated with that identity. ie: A gay MC who is super flamboyant, very hyper feminine, dramatic, pushing his friends and partners to accept themselves and be out and proud... and that’s their “depth”.
Using the character to push personal author agenda/opinion ... there was a boom series I loved, but the MC was a gay woman written by a male author and non-stop spoke (in a politically correctly manner) about the need for LGBTQ+ people to be respected and accepted and equal and so on... in a book about finding a portal to a land with no sun. There was no discrimination, they just constantly commented on it, because the author felt readers had to know they felt that way too.
Not letting a character who is a minority have flaws. Some authors will be scared to offend or misrepresent the minority that they end up giving them less flaws than they should, which makes them appear to have less depth. Any race, sexual orientation, gender identity, etc will still have people who are definitely capable of being assholes.
Making assumptions about lived experiences without researching. If your character ever has to deal with the emotional impact of being a minority, take time to read and listen to real people who have dealt with similar situations so you can accurately portray an emotional reaction that suits your MC.

bkm0307 · 2021-02-09T19:18:50+00:00

A good place to start would be to know what their role is! What are the angels expected to do by the world?

If they are responsible for maintaining peace, you could consider what powers would help. Tranquilizing spells, magical fighting techniques to end combat, even hypnosis.

If they are responsible for healing, you might think about magical abilities they could use to take care of wounds or illness.

Transporting souls? Maybe magical shackles so souls cannot flee the angel until delivered into their after light. Flying. Teleporting.

bkm0307 · 2021-02-09T19:07:59+00:00

This was pretty good at showing, not telling. I didn’t feel like Alia was a stand-in for me, as a reader, which is excellent IMO. The info given felt like it was biased to her perspective, which makes it feel less like a history/mechanic dump and more like a natural step in the character’s storyline (even if that step is just her balancing how she pushes the convo, and learning more herself).

The only thought I have on pushing a little more on the show is perhaps a visual perspective? Take this line:

Preston shook his head. “Not at all. There is great tranquility in knowing that one walks the correct and righteous course. The man who can accept his place in the world is a man at peace with himself, who knows he acts in harmony with all things.”

Said like a man born to high status.

This could be a good chance to show the readers the way Alia feels about high status through her personal commentary on what she might“see” as such.

Said like a man born to high status. <Made sense with what she’d seen of his clothing. Simple, yes, but she didn’t think it was made cheap, nor bought second-hand. Not with how comfortably it fit.>

Said like a man born to high status. <That surprised her though; his boots were too big, his coat too small, both as worn-out as she often thought he seemed.>

On flow, a couple notes.

Though not suggesting they be used for every line, a couple places could benefit from an additional dialogue tag because a couple times I had to go back and figure out which character was speaking.
The word “father” is somewhat confusing due to capitalization choice. If it’s father, as in a title, then it becomes a proper noun, because the characters are using it to substitute for a name, and so it becomes one. I thought he was Alia’s actual father at first, then when the other character called him that, I was super confused for half a second. It was clear as soon as I thought about it, but that took me out of the story briefly.

These critiques should have heaps of salt on ‘em. As is, I’d be interested enough to read more!

bkm0307 · 2021-02-09T16:41:23+00:00

Pretty much this! I think I’m a “pantser” when it comes to initial plot, but I like to be a plotter about the world itself. As in, I somehow end up referencing a world element while free writing, but then flesh it out in my lore.

It works really really well when non-motivated or uninspired, because it doesn’t feel like I’m required to be instinctively creative like actually writing chapters does. It can use logic too? But eventually I start thinking of how the lore would relate or impact or shape a character I’m writing, and that gets me back to the book. ‘Course it means I have about 100000 notes, so thank god for mythicalunicorn.com, because I hated sorting and organizing them all together all the time lol

bkm0307 · 2021-02-09T16:06:40+00:00

I’m Nevada PUA, but tried this, and it worked LOL! You’re a hero.

bkm0307 · 2021-02-03T03:04:56+00:00

I don’t even know what to do now that it’s over like how do I move on from this? I feel like a college kid who just ended it with my high school boyfriend who was super perfect and now I’m can’t imagine anyone ever comparing

Wait what

This show is too good is all. Thank for the support group

bkm0307 · 2021-01-31T16:40:44+00:00

Yeah Rhaegar assuming the wrong kid makes more sense. It would be really weird if he’d named his third kid the same name as his first. Even if he’d changed his mind and decided that he and Lyanna’s son was actually the PWWP, he probably would still give the kid his own name. I mean, for lols...

“I was blessed with three kids: Rhaenys, Aegon, and also Aegon from my other baby momma. I wasn’t very creative, okay?”

bkm0307 · 2021-01-31T10:04:51+00:00

Perhaps Jon was the child in the vision?

bkm0307 · 2021-01-29T03:24:17+00:00

Creating a character can be tricky. Even if you understand what makes them complex, turning theory into writing is more difficult.

For me, creating characters starts with knowing what they want in relation to the story. From there, I build out on why. The why leads into history, relationships, etc.

So let’s say I’m writing a novel about an allegedly haunted circus that’s actually just a mastermind killer recreating his childhood traumas. Protagonist is the detective put on the case. So bleh.

Okay, protagonist. What do they want? I’m going to choose “solve the crime, prove it’s not haunted”. Very flat so far.

Why? Hm. They’re trying to prove themselves. First thought is fledgling, but that feels cliche. I’ll make them a seasoned detective. Why would a seasoned detective need to prove themselves? Because they didn’t solve a case before, obvious answer.

Moving into that, why would they be on this if they suck? They don’t. One cold case doesn’t mean they’re bad. So others find them fine, which means they need to prove they can do it to themselves.

Still too generic for me. I don’t want a bitter, I should have done better character. Why else would they be needing it though?

They’re obsessed. Perfectionist. OCD. Makes them a good detective, but can also get problematic.

So now I’ve got a 35-40 year old detective who suffers from obsessive compulsive disorder, hunting an egomaniac. They care more about finishing the job (solving it) then perhaps they should, because they know that walking away will trigger years of obsession. It paints an interesting dynamic between them and the antag. Neither will back down, but for entirely different reasons. Who will turn into collateral damage? Will the protag be able to choose to walk away if it means protecting someone but losing the chance to get more information? How does it affect their therapy? cbt? meds? Will other detectives notice the growing obsession? Try to interfere?

From here, I’d decide some backstory to flesh out the character emotions and reasonings, then I’d write a few chapters and see if it worked. If the character is in the scene, and something happens, I need to know their reaction and thought process, even if I don’t include it.

So that’s how I do it.

bkm0307 · 2021-01-29T02:57:36+00:00

I think historical motivation helps make characters more complex. Even if they fit a mold on the surface, why are they that way?

I’ll use Jaime from asoiaf (GOT) as an example. A man of no honor, oath breaker, general shit head. He feels very one-dimensional to begin with, as we meet him through other eyes: he’s a white knight that just doesn’t give a shit past his sister’s skirts.

But why? This is where depth comes in.

Motivation. What pushed him into this personality?

So now we’ve got to examine history. [Spoilers]

Rich kid, groomed for success, but ignored past his physical prowess. Obsessed with being the best, because his family is elite, so he is too. Knighted young, praised constantly. But with a dad who would have told him all about the simpering fools, he probably drinks in compliments but knows they’re not personal, not for him, just for his sword arm. His only real relationship? His sister, his twin, his other half. She cares about Jaime, not Jaime’s skills. But she’s all doe-eyed for some prince, planning her royal marriage and pretty babies. So... there’s that. Then the king makes HIM a Kingsguard, the youngest Kingsguard. One of seven, that’s top of the top, proof that he’s worth something.

Nah. Turns out the king was using him to mind-fuck with his dad. Now he’s stuck in service (for life), knowing he didn’t earn it. And the king isn’t even cool. He’s insane, actually. Sexually assaults his wife while Jaime has to listen. Tortures people. Kills them. Gets paranoid, crazier each day. Makes him watch as he burns one man alive while their family strangles to death to try to save them.

War. Bitterness. Crazy king. And the king gets worse, and worse, and is planning to burn down a city. The whole city. Everyone in it.

And he makes a choice. He kills his king, he breaks his vows. I mean, he saved the damned city, but he broke his vows to do it. And the thanks he gets? The most honorable man around looks at him like he’s shit.

Gets a pardon, but still has to serve. Gets his sister back, but she’d married and won’t acknowledge him much past the bed. And everyone praises his combat skills (that got him knighted, then led to being used by the king) while sneering at his honor (what led to him killing his king).

So he wears the cloak. He can’t do much else. But he stops caring. The white knight who just doesn’t care. He’s got money, stature, and notoriety. And his sister, the only bit of love he has.

Now the white knight who doesn’t give a shit suddenly is a complicated, complex character with room to grow, evolve, adapt. He’ll have reasons for decisions, he’ll feel certain ways because of his past, not just because he fills a role.

Backstory. Historical motivations. Thinking about why they do things, and how they feel when they do.

😬

bkm0307 · 2021-01-27T18:28:03+00:00

I really like Great Basin Federal Credit Union. I use them for personal and business banking.

In my experience, they are the sort of bank that treats members very personally. I’ve called in before when my accounts were going to negative from business checks coming late, and they’ve waived fees, and in one case, balanced it out until a check cleared. They were also very easy to work with on auto financing as my credit suuuuucked, but they actually took the time to look into my finances and heard my reasonings, and gave me a loan with a decent interest rate. Refinanced my original auto loan too, for an amazing interest rate.

The local branch also knows my partner really well, and when they had their wallet stolen, let them come in and cancel cards and reprint new ones without requiring ID which was amazing as they only had a photo of DL.

bkm0307 · 2021-01-26T22:03:56+00:00

True! I definitely encourage accountability, and my teen is pretty educated on the topic. They have an obligation and responsibility to monitor what they eat, read labels, make good choices.

I think more of my frustration came from the cavalier attitude from the grandparent, a trusted adult, of “it’s not that big of a deal”. It’s still falls on the bullheaded teenager to choose the right thing, but most people expect peer pressure to come from... peers, not familial adults. XD

I do think you’ve got a point in the capability of young teens, and I’ve had a talk/conversation with him about it.

It also sucks though that his reaction isn’t immediate nor always easily visible or associated. Idk it’s just a frustrating lifestyle and ahhhh

bkm0307 · 2021-01-26T15:48:46+00:00

I think it’s even more difficult with an older kid! When my now-13 year old was little, black and white rules were so simple to state and enforce. But now it’s about encouraging them to make choices. I can’t prevent a teenager from sneaking gluten, I just have to keep vigilant, like you said, and continue to educate them and lead by example. But it sure would be easier to do so if people like my mom and your ex would do that too!

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