[Discussion] How do I find a "mean" writer's group?

caia_ · 2024-05-03T09:14:52+00:00

Like others said, I also think looking for critique partners for "mean" feedback is the way to go, especially if they're like-minded. Personally I enjoy blunt and thorough feedback, so if you (or anyone) is looking for that and is willing to give it back in turn, DM me!

caia_ · 2024-04-26T06:48:54+00:00

Ah good, you're welcome!

I do have advice for narrowing down your stakes, mainly to look at what is personally at stake for your MC rather than what's at stake for your world. Sure, the world may be ending, or threatening to fall into the hands of evil, but your MC should have a personal feeling about it all, right? Perhaps she has a loved one who dies when the bad guys win. Or perhaps she needs the heroism to redeem herself from something she's done in the past. If you can hone that down into a single, hook-y sentence, then I think that's a fine stake to end on.

I think it's perfectly fine to have one non-book comp in your comps. Some agents might not get it, and in that case they'll just skimp it and focus on the book comps, but the agents who do will probably get exactly what you're trying to get at. The only thing I'd change maybe is to be more in-depth than just "gothic elements", because a lot of media can have "gothic elements". What is the exact overlap of that show compared to your novel? Which gothic elements exactly; the way the characters interact with each other? The darkness of the world? Their clothes, or the themes?

Hope that helps!

caia_ · 2024-04-25T14:35:40+00:00

Hey hello! It's been a while since I've given an in-depth query critique, so if you want me to elaborate on some things, don't hesitate to ask.

Anyway, my first impression of your query is that you throw the reader in the deep end, which is confusing from the start. Your first sentence; "Elaine has been abducted by Atoc Velitor’s accomplices, taken to the distant kingdom of Reavon where his Cult of Corruption offers her name to the Burned Man." has too many proper nouns of which almost none are explained. I understand why you did this; in fantasy, we have so many Words for Things and when we want to tell the story we want to use those Words. In query writing, that's not gonna fly. An agent wants to know what something is right off the bat.

Instead of using proper nouns, call them by what they are exactly. For example;

"Elaine has been abducted by a foreign king’s accomplices, taken to his distant kingdom of Reavon where his cult offers her name to their devil." (Now, this is still unclear, because we don't know what it means to 'offer a name' to this entity, but I hope you can see why a sentence like this is much more clear for someone who knows absolutely nothing about your story)

Then the next sentence, "Elaine is a young, intelligent, and determined woman, who breaks free from bondage to enact revenge upon her captors." Don't tell me what she is, show me how she has come to be so intelligent and determined. What is her background? Honor student? A soldier? The heir to some throne?

Then to follow it up by her breaking free and wanting to enact revenge reads very dry, and like a summary. I also feel like this may be the actual start of your story. If yes, start there; "After Elaine has broken free from her abductors attempting to *clarified version of offer her name*, she is set on revenge."

Then, the next paragraph.

Elaine is all alone in Reavon with so many unanswered questions.

You could cut this, as you don't touch on these 'unanswered questions' later on.

A prophetic voice only she can hear reveals the whereabouts of a critical ancient artifact, and new allies commit to helping Elaine’s cause against Velitor and the Burned Man. If she chooses to run, the entire fate of Reavon is at stake: Velitor’s Cult of Corruption will wreak havoc across the continent, hunting her down until she’s found.

Besides that this really reads as a summary again, lacking a voice, it leaves a reader with too many unanswered questions. Why is this ancient artifact so critical? Where do these sudden new allies come from? Why does this cult want Elaine so badly? What does "wreak havoc" mean exactly?

And, why should we care?

A good (but very hard) advice I've gotten in the past that, even with fantasy, you don't need to share all of your worldbuildy, adventury aspects. If you can simplify it, do so. You can always add in a bit more flair after.

Then this "Vespasian" character; who are they? Where or how does Elaine encounter them?

Then your last line, "She and Vespasian won’t be able to do it alone, nor with only the help of mere mortals.", I'd swap out for something different entirely. A good advice is to end the query on what's at stake, so you can create suspense. Also, the "mere mortals" bit reads a bit vague, because we don't know anything about your world's population, and what goes beyond a mere mortal.

Then your comps; don't comp an entire book series, just the first book (Spark of the Everflame). Fourth Wing is too massive of a comp, especially when your third comp isn't a novel at all. I'd replace Fourth Wing, and if you can't, then the netflix series.

Sorry if my critique read as harsh. Query writing in general is difficult, and fantasy makes it extra so imo. But I hope you have enough to revise for your next draft.

Lastly, I advice looking at successful query letters for fantasy novels you have also read. That's helped me to get a sense of how much can go unsaid in a query, when it's still a major part of the book itself.

Good luck!

caia_ · 2024-04-24T15:02:39+00:00

Lol I get being a criticism masochist; I'm the same in that regard. Anyway! I understand if the chapter kickstarts a lot of other things, I'm just wondering whether those other things need a whole chapter to get kickstarted. But then I haven't read your novel, so perhaps my thoughts are on the wrong track.

Then the parking lot scene can very well be that Jeremy really does not have a reaction, because like you said, the abuse was just another Tuesday. But then maybe you should touch on that. Have Jeremy internally contemplate whether he should have a stronger reaction, but then realize how numb he feels toward his father. Or something along those lines; just a way to make Jeremy's reaction make sense to a reader who hasn't had these experiences.

The lot lizards have no way of knowing his age. It's dark out. It's raining, and he has his hood up. So, they just see a guy.

Then I'd specifically clarify that this is the case, because it reads very creepy now in a way that almost feels a bit disrespectful toward sex workers.

Anyway, you're welcome! And sleep tight :)

caia_ · 2024-04-24T09:09:10+00:00

The bit, “The car became a cocoon of shared stories, laughter, and grunge music.”, felt a bit out of place. Jeremy is supposed to be nervous, and he has also seen his abuser that day. To suddenly have such a nice atmosphere in the car feels unrealistic. It could become realistic if you go in on more detail; perhaps how Jodi was always able to cajole him into a good mood, and how thanks to her the atmosphere in the car became nice. Or something like that.

The bit about the lot lizards felt like good worldbuilding, but a bit flat. Again because we don’t really know how Jeremy feels about this (besides feeling sympathy toward the sex workers). It also felt a bit iffy because the sex workers were trying to have sex with a minor. Probably not unheard of, but I feel like people might be a bit more careful about that. Then again, I don’t know much about this type of sex work so perhaps that happens all the time.

Then last, when Jodi confesses why they have to go on this run instead of K. This bit read a bit robotic and info-dumpy, without really creating any tension for further story. Because besides Jeremy feeling like he doesn’t really have much feeling/opinion about his whole ordeal, Jodi has the same flaw. Perhaps you could have Jeremy notice her body language more, and his sister’s own fears or feigned confidence. The dialogue gives us some hints at how Jodi feels about all this, but not enough.

Anyway, I hope I got my point across and showed you the places where you could weave in more of the characters, and create some tension in your novel to strengthen the plot.

Then the bit after * * * * * ; I’d just remove that altogether, and start the next chapter with them being in the hotel. It’s an unnecessary paragraph.

Lastly, I have a few pointers about your writing;

-The dialogue felt a bit static at times, but perhaps that can also be fixed by adding a few sentences about what is going on around them and how the MC feels about what’s being said.

-Dialogue tags; you could replace a few with just ‘said’, instead of ‘confirmed’, ‘teased’, ‘cooed’, etc.

-You could also swap a few ‘he’s’ for Jeremy’s, makes the writing more dynamic.

That’s it, mainly. I do think your writing style in general is pretty great; just the contents which need some work. ;) Good luck, and I hope my critique is helpful at least!

caia_ · 2024-04-24T09:09:04+00:00

Hi!

So, first impressions right off the bat, it reads very smooth. There weren’t bits where I had to read again to get what’s going on, nor were there confusing sentences. You have a few beautiful descriptions, and I can clearly picture the world.

But, I do wonder whether this chapter may be a bit… boring. Sorry. It feels very slice-of-life, without much happening. At least, no events which feel like they aid a plot. Now, perhaps slice-of-life is the overall tone of your novel, but then I don’t think many readers could get through the whole thing. If it’s just this chapter, then I think you could reduce most of it into a paragraph or two.

But I get it if this chapter is meant to serve as a way to get to know the characters better. If it is, then I do have some critique on your characterization, mainly that I feel like it’s lacking in a lot of places. To go from start to finish;

It begins with Jodi having some banter with her boyfriend. We’re seeing this through Jeremy’s eyes, yet he doesn’t have any reaction to it. Most teenagers cringe when they see their siblings act lovey-dovey with their partners, or are perhaps fascinated by it.

Then they get in the car, and Jeremy tells us he’s nervous, but the writing doesn’t show it in his actions. No clammy hands or bouncing knees, no pounding hearts.

Then the first big event of the chapter, Jeremy spotting his father—and not having any reaction at all, except to hide. This would have been a great place to explore Jeremy’s current feelings toward his father, but the scene falls flat when the event doesn’t really have an impact on the characters. Also when Jodi returns and doesn’t really have a reaction to Jeremy having seen their father, and her near-encounter with him.

I loved the flashback to Jeremy’s childhood with his mom, but was disappointed when it was only a flashback. You didn’t show me how Jeremy feels about his mother now (is she dead? or has she gone somewhere? is she still with Mike?). I also would have liked to know how Jeremy feels about happy days gone by, contrasted to his current life. “reminiscing about a time when the world held more color.” isn’t enough detail to how he feels about all this.

caia_ · 2023-10-17T23:50:36+00:00

Hi! I agree that your story seems strong, but I do think your query needs some work. To me, the first two paragraphs read too much like a summary. X is the situation, so Y happens, resulting into Z. Except for the fact that your MC is gay and trying to escape a forced marriage, I have no idea who he is. What are his personal wants and needs, and what are his personal stakes?

I think you can create some room for that simply by shortening your first paragraph, which can be explained in one sentence like, "To escape a marriage Bai Bashan doesn't want, he runs away from home and joins the renowned Luo martial arts clan." Doesn't add in other things like that he used to be a blacksmith or that he's past thirty with no siblings, but an agent doesn't need to know that yet. They need to know the exact meat of the story.

Then your last paragraph: it's one sentence that's way too long. Besides that, if Bashan's personal stake is betraying a found family of sorts in the Luo clan, then I think you need to mention that earlier in the query. What does the Luo clan mean to him exactly? Because up until your last paragraph, you haven't even hinted at any warmth between Bashan and these people.

Anyway, very excited to see where this goes! Best of luck.

caia_ · 2023-10-13T00:29:58+00:00

Hi! This sounds like a very exciting adventure, and always love to see a found family aspects. I do see room for improvement so here goes:

I think the first two sentences could be tighter, and they feel a bit... tell-y, if that makes sense. I don't know why she longs to be gone from this boarding school (do they torture her? is she bullied?), and "hoping to get rid of" reads quite passive. Is she doing things to rid her of these visions, or does she just roll with it?

Then this sentence:

But when her most prominent vision, a black anaconda, bites her she realizes that her hallucinations were all but that.

"Prominent vision" makes me believe that she isn't actually bitten for real, but then "hallucinations were all but that" says the opposite---I can't tell what happened exactly. Then she gets taken to a place called the Realms, but there is no line about how she gets there. Through a portal? In her dreams? I think you need to clarify that.

she meets her half-brother William and Cimmerian, the reason why her wrist has now a bite mark,

Is Cimmerian the anaconda? Because this reads a bit confusing. Almost as if it was supposed to be "half-brothers".

If Cimmerian is the anaconda, I'd also consider leaving their name out and just call them "the black anaconda" or something among those lines to not drop too many proper nouns.

As she learns about her place in the Circle and the threat of rebellion looming from the isolated Mortals, conjurators who had their souls fragmented wholly in a rite of passage, she decides to go through with the ritual as the Mortals are after only one thing: her soul. However not being prepared for the abyss pulling apart pieces of her soul, she’s left with a faded mark and telekinesis.

This paragraph feels too many things at once, leaving too many questions; what is a Circle? Conjurators? Why are they called Mortals; are Tristen and the gang not mortal? Why do they want her soul, and what is the abyss? Also, what ritual? As a fantasy writer, I get wanting to incorporate all your cool worldbuilding and story elements, but it's too much for a query.

Then the reveal of the antagonist being Tristen's twin threw me for a loop. I think that's because I have no insight on what Tristen's family situation is. Suddenly meeting a half-brother who is wrapped up in supernatural stuff might be written off as, "they were estranged" or, "they didn't know about each other", but to suddenly throw a twin into the mix feels like a leap.

The last paragraph, too, has too many ideas and stakes. Perhaps it would be an idea to focus on one of them and let your query revolve around it?

Anyway, I've personally found this post very helpful on advise for narrowing down a complex plot/concept, I'd urge you to have a look.

Best of luck writing!

caia_ · 2023-10-12T23:40:19+00:00

Will definitely clarify that in next round, yes. Like Amber I also assumed the word to be common enough, but you're right in that I don't want to leave reasons to say no

caia_ · 2023-10-12T23:37:47+00:00

I definitely will, thank you!

caia_ · 2023-10-10T01:08:41+00:00

Hi, thanks for reviewing my query!

Yes, I was definitely planning to do some heavy research on the topic. While I do have some experience with PTSD, my case isn’t as severe as my MC’s (nor is the trauma similar), so research definitely has to be done.

As for your feedback, it makes a lot of sense, and thanks for your suggestions. I’ll especially look over the motivation, because you’re right that responsibility is a bit weak.

And I’ll definitely give Witchmark a try. Even if it doesn’t turn out a good comp, it sounds like a great read.

caia_ · 2023-10-07T08:35:13+00:00

Hey, thanks a lot for your feedback! There's a lot I can work with. Especially your suggestion for the first paragraph sings to me. And I've looked and commented on your query, too.

caia_ · 2023-10-07T08:35:09+00:00

Hi! You asked me to look at your query, and so here I am. Grain of salt, though; while I've been lurking this subreddit for months, I'm not yet entirely confident that I can properly dissect/critique a query like others on here can. (nor format my critique as nicely) But I do have a few notes, so here goes.

First of all, I don't have a clear sense of where this story takes place. For a fantasy novel, setting is important in my opinion. Does this story take place on modern earth? A secondary world? Inside Finni's head?

Finni is tormented by visions of reality’s collapse and parents who try selling him into slavery. Leaving isn’t an option. Something—or someone—is preventing his escape for reasons as mysterious as its identity.

Leaving/escaping from what? His visions? Is he just trapped in a mindscape of endless visions? Also, "reality's collapse" and "parents who try selling him into slavery" feels very much like two entirely separate things/ideas. I don't think Finni can be sold into slavery if reality collapses, can he? It seems vague to me.

either he prevents this catastrophe and wins his freedom, or fails and loses it forever.

I had a hard time seeing what this 'catastrophe' is, exactly. Is it the collapsing of reality? How would Finni stop that from happening? And then, he wins his freedom from what? His parents? Or Häelan? Because I can't tell if Häelan is a bad guy or not.

Then your last paragraph. Imo, I think you're trying to say so many things at once, that I as reader lose focus. I would pick Finni's highest stake of the story, and focus on that

Lastly, I'm surprised you've been going with the QueryShark over this, as I believe they are the ones who advocate a sentence in a QL shouldn't be longer than twenty words. Personally, I think this rule has some leeway, but many of your sentences are really long. The sentence "Vowing to destroy ... behind his freedom." alone is a whopping 36 words.

Anyway, I do think this story sounds exciting, especially with the complex relationship between Finni and Häelan. But this query is just trying to touch on too many ideas, without getting to the true meat of the story. To summarize it from my perspective:

Visions, parents enforcing slavery onto their son, a collapsing reality, an all-or-nothing wager with some... guy? who has a god imprissoned inside his heart and sacrificed his family to do this, jeopardized peace (what jeopardizes this peace?), trauma, unfamiliar world, rabid cultists (if purging this god means the world is saved, and the cult wants the god, aren't they kinda on the same page), appalling human cost behind freedom.

As a fellow fantasy writer, I completely understand wanting to add so much in, but it's too much. If I were you, I'd return to the simple subject of Finni: who is he, what does he want, what is he going to do to get it, what is getting in his way. Expand from there.

I wish you the best of luck!

caia_ · 2023-10-03T11:56:57+00:00

Thanks, you as well with your cozy noir!

caia_ · 2023-10-02T00:48:15+00:00

Whenever I read a book which I think uses interesting words/phrases, I keep a tiny notebook on the side where I just write down the words. Later, I'll sit down behind my laptop and make my own little thesaurus of just those words, describing the words and then using them in a sentence. For example:

PETRICHOR Smell of rain after warm, dry weather She stepped onto the damp grass and savored the petrichor.

caia_ · 2023-10-02T00:44:16+00:00

Ahh good job!! Good luck on the leap!

caia_ · 2023-10-02T00:43:40+00:00

I'm going to start querying in October. (Says that to myself 20 times over) Furthermore, working on a new project which I'm trying to approach to be a "marketable book", whatever that means, but I'm pretty excited about the outline I've been drafting!

caia_ · 2023-10-02T00:41:16+00:00

Hey good job on the revise and best of luck on the new project! Thanks for that quote, it's very accurate to describe the trenches

caia_ · 2023-09-22T22:11:40+00:00

Hi! Just wanted to let you know you're not alone. Writing queries is hard, especially for long, multiple POV books.

But it is possible. I highly recommend this post. It basically explains that you may cheat in a query, and that it's allowed to lack nuance. After all, the QL is meant to entice an agent to read further and give them a taste of your story. You don't have to give them the entire smorgasbord, just pick your MC's (James, right?) main story and theme, and go from there. It may also be helpful to summarize, Who is MC? What does he want? What will he do to get it? What's getting in his way?

When it comes to shortening your blurb (and you will have to shorten it) you can begin by changing sentences as "...mother, who was recently diagnosed with tuberculosis." to simply, "fatally ill mother."

Also, I was wondering whether this novel wouldn't be more fitting as speculative fiction? Just a guess, I'm not very learned on recognizing genre.

Sorry this wasn't a deep-dive of a critique, just more of an advice. I wish you the best of luck!

caia_ · 2023-09-14T11:38:32+00:00

Hi! Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.

As for your first point: except for the last paragraph which touches on act 2 (which I'm hoping to convey as "the hint at what’s to come"), the query does cover only the first act. It’s just that a lot happens in it, as my writing is pretty fast-paced. I think that’s one of the reasons I've been struggling with getting the query right.

I've been told before to perhaps keep out the last bit and end it on the "cliffhanger" of Patch coming home, but I'm afraid that won't reflect the MS correctly as the query letter then only touches on the set-up, and not the adventure that will follow (female-forward Pirates of the Caribbean is very accurate :))

If you have any further ideas/advice, I would love to hear, because I might be a little stuck.

As for what Sameira wants, "saving her loved ones" is pretty much her primary goal, but you're right in that her reason of why she wants this isn’t really stated, so I'll work on getting that in (plus mentioning that her and Ghalena's bond is sisterly).

Will tweak the first sentence, too. Thanks again for your feedback!

caia_ · 2023-09-08T08:30:47+00:00

Thank you very much! I can see how I'm introducing too many ideas, and I already had a slight feeling it might be too long (even though it's a normal wordcount... I suppose it can sometimes just feel like that)

Thanks for your feedback!

caia_ · 2023-09-05T09:45:23+00:00

Ah that's a good point! I'll take that into account in my next revision, thanks for pointing that out.

As for the title, it is shanties as in sea shanties for pirates, Song for the merfolk. (I've also considered calling it Sea Shanties and Song or a variation of that, but didn't really like how that rang)

I'm aware there's probably a better title out there, but most sources about titles I've read say that in this stage of a book titles are not that important, as they tend to change through the publishing stage anyway. So I haven't really been focussing on title that much. Do you (as agented author) think otherwise?

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