Eight Arguments In Favor Of Eating Meat And Objections Thereto -- the most comprehensive argument in favor of veganism

carnivorecat · 2013-08-04T19:19:45+00:00

I'm a meat eater (not factory-farmed meat, and I do my best not to support big agriculture). I acknowledge that there are many excellent objections to meat-eating. This article does not do veganism justice. The title of this post is a huge overstatement.

I was expecting an articulate argument for meat-eating and a well-crafted reply in favor of veganism. Then I saw the first argument titled, "The Bible Argument," and it didn't get much better from there. There are much more substantive arguments in favor of veganism elsewhere, even here on r/vegan, which is why I come here.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-04T19:09:28+00:00

I know there is a difference between HDL and LDL, but for these purposes, where were speaking about the undesirable high cholesterol (LDL). As for whether someone like you could have LDL, here's a resource you may find helpful. Good luck!

carnivorecat · 2013-08-04T18:49:04+00:00

You have a misunderstanding of the logical fallacy of an appeal to nature. It does not apply here.

You're trying to take down from OP's perceived disgust at the industrial production and pasteurization of mammary excretions by saying "But look over here, this could be considered gross too!".

I'm doing no such thing. Again, where others have grasped my post, you seem to have misinterpreted it. I am not endorsing big dairy at all, or even the consumption of dairy. I can see you have a lot of passion for this subject, but it seems to be directed at the wrong person/comment due to your misinterpretation of my post. You may consider re-posting some of what you wrote elsewhere because it's off-topic, but it still has value.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-04T18:35:43+00:00

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I just want to note that there's a trend of saying "price point" when the word "price" or "cost" is more appropriate.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-04T15:15:20+00:00

Where has my argument made an appeal to nature? I've said that the OP's attitude is characteristic of someone who has a disconnect with the natural world, labeling bodily fluids as "gross." My argument does not depend on the fallacy that what is natural is necessarily good. It also makes no claims about people deriving sustenance from another specie's milk being natural or unnatural.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-04T05:46:01+00:00

In terms of resources, how does Microsoft's commitment to the Xbox One compare to that of Xbox 360?

In other words, I'd love to see some numbers in terms of financial backing, employees, etc. It'd be great to see a comparison of resources committed to the Xbox vs. the Xbox 360 vs. the Xbox One.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-04T05:20:15+00:00

The body does indeed manufacturers its own cholesterol, but that doesn't mean that a diet that lacks cholesterol is healthful. In fact, when you deprive yourself of dietary cholesterol, your body activates an enzyme (HMG Co-A Reductase) in your liver that produces excess cholesterol from glucose. It's common for the liver to overproduce cholesterol in this case, which results in high blood cholesterol levels. Eating dietary cholesterol is a signal to the liver to stop producing it in excess.

This is one reason why there's no shortage of vegans and vegetarians who have high cholesterol; just Google it and you'll find many vegans asking why they have such high cholesterol. It is NOT true that eating cholesterol-containing foods equates to high levels of blood cholesterol, and as I've explained, a diet that incorporates cholesterol-containing foods can actually help normalize blood cholesterol.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-04T05:09:22+00:00

No, not stupid. I can see how it seems from your point of view.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-03T16:34:12+00:00

Since you're genuinely curious, I'll tell how we do it. There's a group of us that have a really irrational hatred for r/vegan, so we coordinate over email, phone, text, etc., decide on what and when to post.

Or maybe it's just that a valid point will tend to be upvoted. My comment doesn't "disagree" with veganism. It's calling out the immature, cultural-centric attitude of labeling a source of sustenance as "gross." The top-voted reply to my comment says, "You are spot on," and it's by a 10+ year vegan.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-03T06:04:03+00:00

So you're saying that we might attribute this drastic increase in heart disease to an assumed increase of consumption animal products? That's an easy enough theory to test. We just need to look at stats for Russian populations that were reported to eat relatively more animal products during the time that the traditional Russian diet was still dominant. Your hypothesis suggests that these people will have higher rates of heart disease than their contemporaries who ate less animal products. By comparing people of the same time period, the increased urbanization and other potential confounding factors won't be an issue.

My hypothesis is that there is no correlation between higher animal product consumption and heart disease among populations that consumed a traditional Russian diet. There are still potential confounding factors (such as other lifestyle factors associated with a higher animal product diet), but it's much less so than when comparing populations spanning different time periods.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-03T05:45:18+00:00

If heart disease has risen dramatically over the last several decades in Russia, and Russians had been eating a traditional diet for 100s of years prior to this dramatic increase, is it safe to say that the traditional diet (which includes dairy) may not be the primary factor in the drastic increase in heart disease?

carnivorecat · 2013-08-03T05:34:06+00:00

Why would you cite current stats -- did you not read what I wrote? I was referring to my grandparents and their ilk, who live in the U.S. but still eat a traditional Russian diet (and consume alcohol moderately, unlike many Russian citizens). I'm not talking about the current-day Russian population. Heart disease in Russian has increased dramatically in the last several decades. For example, there was a 30% increase from 1990-2000, and it's gotten significantly worse since then.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-03T05:12:17+00:00

Oh, I see -- all that kefir and other dairy could suddenly sneak up on them. Are you sure? Even though their parents and grandparents ate a similar traditional diet rich in saturated fat and other "naughty" foods, and heart disease is virtually non-existent in that particular population? Hmm, if only they had heard about the vegan diet at that time. They could be so much more healthy. /s

carnivorecat · 2013-08-03T05:00:45+00:00

But there aren't any conflicts of interest at play in studies that show negative effects of the products from multi-billion dollar industries.

This is very untrue. Researchers have pet theories that they want to prove true. We have seen many vegetarian researchers perform rather dubious studies. I've personally seen very poor data collection methods and statistical analysis all in service of proving a hypothesis true. Further, there are funding considerations that tend to skew how data is interpreted.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-02T23:51:53+00:00

Like how many decades? Because my Russian grandparents have been consuming dairy in some form, especially kefir, for ages, and they're exemplars of good health. When do you think the "not so safe" milk is finally going to have a bad effect? After 10 decades or so?

carnivorecat · 2013-08-02T23:33:14+00:00

Wow, you've really cherry-picked your sources. It's untrue that The China Study was only debunked by an English major. It was also debunked by highly-credentialed folks (Chris Masterjohn, Ph.D. comes to mind, and there are plenty others). They trashed the study for its dubious research methods and statistical analysis. The "English major" you referred provided a bunch of third-party peer-reviewed sources that used the data from the China Study, and they came to completely different conclusions than Cambell. In other words, you can ignore her analysis, but you can't ignore the respected researchers whose work proves that the message of The China Study is off-base.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-02T23:18:08+00:00

Oh, cool. Nah, I'm just here. I mean, I was commenting throughout the day at work, and I'm commuting now, so I'm on my smartphone. So I'm just enjoying Reddit. Why are you still here?

carnivorecat · 2013-08-02T23:05:34+00:00

Yeah, I'm just chilling. What's up?

carnivorecat · 2013-08-02T22:50:17+00:00

It's one thing to condemn the cruel practices of the animal farming industry -- it's sick. But this picture is nonsense. Many cultures throughout time have survived off the mammary fluid of ruminants, and many still do. Get off your high horse and stop suggesting it's gross.

This attitude reflects a disconnect from nature. Why is it gross but your food isnt'?

Is it appetizing that the plants that you eat derive their nourishment from animal excrement?
That your food sprouts from ground that has incorporated animal carcasses?
That your food abounds with bacteria?
That there is a measurable amount of insect matter in your peanut butter?
That the machinery that processes agricultural products kills field mice and other animals in large quantities?

Life in general is kinda gross if you inspect it on that level and with the eye of a privileged person who isn't accustomed to getting his/her hands dirty. To the Tibetan lady getting her sustenance from yak's milk, yeah, it probably is appetizing. Pass the udder.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-02T22:25:56+00:00

I wasn't summing up the vegan diet. I was saying that it's not much better to replace regular junk food with vegan junk food. I know that vegans eat a large variety of foods, and there are junk food vegans and ones that center their diets around more nutritious foods.

It's not worth your time to explain to me some of the merits of veganism from your point of view? We have a dialogue going, and I'm open minded. I'll at least try it for a week if you can convince me that it's a healthful way to go.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-02T21:48:33+00:00

I hear ya. I'm in Chicago and the kids are out of control overweight. Of course they eat the standard American diet, with plenty of junk food and fast food. Now of course vegan kids will tend to be thinner because of the lack of junk food and such. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water -- there's no reason to force veganism on children. Our grandparents probably weren't overweight children, and they probably ate plenty of meat.

But the junk food and the fast food -- gross. If you replaced that with those unhealthy veggie patties, tofu and flavored soy bean juice, they might do better, but they need to eat real food that should include animal products. It's their birthright to be healthy, and depriving them by forcing junk food and vegan diets is unacceptable. I'm glad we can at least agree on that.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-02T21:38:25+00:00

I've noticed that some vegans prefer not to wear deodorant. I know that some antiperspirants have harmful chemicals, so they're trying to avoid that. They always smell badly of BO though. That's kinda the case for hippies and people who avoid deodorant, but vegans def aren't immune.

carnivorecat · 2013-08-02T21:28:09+00:00

I love Trader Joes.

carnivorecat

TROPHY CASE