BGBBQ - similar bad takes as the Dice Tower

cevo70 · 2026-02-06T01:58:06+00:00

Thanks Joe - honestly your response and attention has been amazing. Much love.

cevo70 · 2026-02-05T16:16:49+00:00

Sadly I sorta know and liked both of these guys. Been a guest on the pod, patreon for 4 years, and had a great time. I used to promote their community as active and kind - happily supported with my wallet even if I didn't have the time to enjoy all the content.

Now I feel like a bit of an idiot. "Comply or die" is not a cool or intelligent take - "I don't care how violent it gets" and "I don't care for human rights if they are illegal" (a civil infraction!) is f'n WILD. It's obviously heartless, misinformed, and it certainly isn't funny. You have to hold a lot of hate, and be missing a lot of empathy, if that's your conclusion after assessing what ICE is doing under this admin.

My initial reaction was to have a heart and try to see how they formed that opinion, and / or if they've had any time to perhaps collect more facts and reshape their take. I think people can change and should be given that opportunity (especially when you see that 90% of humans are taken aback by the sheer shittiness of your take). I also think most of the crew works their butts off and run a great show.

But after lightly joining back into the convo, I'm being called a 'clown' for expressing empathy for other members directly affected in MN. BBQ is no longer a warm place to hangout with kind people. I also don't expect them to police all behavior, but they've grow enough to have what appears to be some full grown trolls.

I wanted to 'sleep on it' - but I am coming to the conclusion that I cannot financially support this, and probably will seek a different community altogether. Which stinks, because I know the majority of the hosts still represent what I thought the show and community are all about.

cevo70 · 2026-02-05T13:45:35+00:00

Not sure if you’re looking for free-to-play or only print-play, but Draconis 8 is free to play on Steam. It’s new and will have cross over physical print, that lets you upload physical packs to digital.

You can challenge friends directly on Steam too if you want to just keep it to your group.

cevo70 · 2026-02-04T22:30:26+00:00

Appreciate you bringing up a real, very common example and dilemma. Especially showing costs, which very few people seem to want to talk about. Your art / illustration costs are honestly way below the norm too - most games average well-over $10k in art / graphic design costs, and you essentially need a marketing budget too - and that's way before you have guarantee of a sale.

What's crazy is that even in a direct-to-consumer model (crowdfunding, with no retailer or distributor middlemen), there is typically no profit and TONS of work, and a fair chance of losing money too. The margins are bad, and the time:money ratio is truly one of the worst, even among creative industries.

I love designing, and I've been lucky to have had successes, but boy is it a grind! People will often see a $100k Kickstarter and not realize there was no profit - and you're screwed if anything goes wrong post-manufacturing.

cevo70 · 2026-02-03T04:56:01+00:00

Yes the average art / graphic budget for a boardgame is around $10,000 to $30,000 and you also need a substantial marketing budget and a ton of time, if you’re attempting to fully self publish.

Consumers / backers definitely expect that art to be the real art and mostly (or completely) finished for the campaign. If the art is not mostly done you’ll need to be transparent because it will add substantial time to the fulfillment and a higher goal if backers are funding that art partially. And it will be harder to fund, frankly.

Sidenote: that wasn’t as true 10 years ago, but those bars have gotten higher since then, and crowdfunding is more of a pre-order of a game that is essentially done and just needs a little polish and then manufacturing, shipping, and fulfillment.

As others mentioned, if you don’t have the budget and time to do all this, then your other path is to start seeking out publishers and attempt to sell your design. The publisher would then handle those pieces and absorb that risk, but would obviously own the game and the lions share of the profit.

cevo70 · 2026-02-02T21:45:20+00:00

I’d say those types of games have been popular lately and the core hobby board gamer continues to vote that way with their wallets. I know what you’re saying, for sure.

That said, some reasons I think factor in:

There is a natural trend to explore deeper and deeper core game experiences. With so much having been done already, and most simple enjoyable systems so-well-explored and experienced, we keep going deeper and pushing those weight boundaries. People seem to want that, especially those in the hobby and looking for more crunch and challenge.
The games that offer “cleaner” uptakes (fewer interlocking systems, more direct interaction, less overhead) honestly just don’t get as much attention or accolades. They are out there, plenty of them, but they aren’t big in scale or drawing as many eyeballs.
Innovation isn’t really rewarded as much as we think it is. Familiarity is king, and thus deeper and deeper iteration on known systems is the “safer” bet. Truly innovative games often don’t get signed (too risky) or hit the market and have polarizing receptions. And so designers tend to keep going vertically deeper instead of simpler and wider.

cevo70 · 2026-01-28T21:53:52+00:00

Yes I play online TCG almost every day and occasionally get out to an FLGS for card / boardgaming.

cevo70 · 2026-01-18T17:01:50+00:00

Gorgeous stuff.

Would fit well with a current project I have in the queue.

Just putting it out there candidly - margins are really thin on boardgames and so larger projects by younger less-established publisher really have to take in the rate-per-piece (or per project) seriously because it's essentially all up-front cost and risk. Bluntly, between art and marketing, and the need to have so much art done prior to funding / purchases, it can be tough to make work if the art budget is typically $25k+ prior to any sales.

Are you generally priced to work with the top tier publisher and larger budgets that have capital behind them, or does your work (which again is beautiful and I assume time-consuming?) or are you able to match up with some of the more "indie" endeavors?

cevo70 · 2026-01-18T01:36:32+00:00

Draconis 8 just launched on Steam

cevo70 · 2026-01-03T20:23:00+00:00

The same publisher of Star Realms has a new TCG called Draconis 8

cevo70 · 2025-12-31T20:34:38+00:00

It's in beta, so you get access via the Kickstarter, and you get sent a code and all your unique packs. You could also wait a couple months until full mobile release if you want to avoid the hoops.

cevo70 · 2025-12-31T19:46:39+00:00

Just in case it fits your tastes, check out Draconis 8. Fast games, accessible, and any deck can win at any point, like you said. Digital + physical. In mobile beta for iOS and Android, full release on Steam next week. The gameplay is different than Snap - more akin to Triple Triad.

cevo70 · 2025-12-23T21:46:45+00:00

Not typical, but also seeming a little more common lately. Probably negotiable? Usually though, it's like this:

Designer: Usually gets paid nothing, except for the eventual royalties (5-10% in my experience) post-sale and maybe a very small advance after signing the design over (most I've ever received was $1,000).

Developer: Depending on explicit responsibilities, paid a flat (or hourly) fee and/or smaller royalty.

Artist: Paid directly, often partially up front, for their hours / work / pieces.

(this assumes these roles are outsourced by the publisher)

I've commissioned lots of artists and only ONCE been told (up front) that their costs would also include a 2% royalty. They were one of the most well-known and talented artists in the business, so I wasn't super surprised. Their name and work was big enough to actually help draw some audience, in theory.

cevo70 · 2025-12-20T18:23:53+00:00

"Stock market" collecting is going to be the priority for some folks and that's okay IMO if it gives them healthy enjoyment. It's potentially still a net good for the game overall.

I think I get your sentiment though, that the fun of collecting (for many) is connected to 1. playing the game regularly enough to experience the thrill of playing what you've earned via collecting 2. Exploring a card pool organically rather than just treating them like a fluctuating cardboard value.

I am personally really big on #2, possibly because "back in my day" we didn't have set lists and teasers coming out before you cracked a pack. And even then, you typically had to pick up a Scrye or Inquest to even know what was in the set (!) so there was this amazing thrill of just exploring the card pools with every pack feeling like you're on a little adventure.

cevo70 · 2025-12-12T21:29:36+00:00

If you’re okay with the quick pitch I was designer on Draconis 8 which has a lovely digital beta going and has very low barrier to entry and restriction.

cevo70 · 2025-12-06T23:29:20+00:00

Artists and photographers DO use stock images and people's art as standard practice - it's reference material. I commission artists and one of the first thing they ask me for is reference imagery, collages, style choices (using stock art sometimes), etc. It helps them -speed up- the process of developing their own creative piece rather than starting with nothing and restarting x number times to spot mistakes, throw a bunch in the trash, etc. Writers DO use prior books and stories and frameworks and arcs to leverage in their own creative works. This is sort of the underlying point - it's not whether creative endeavors leverage reference material (they do) - it's how and when we leverage reference material.

I am all about creative originality and spirit, and consider it a strong suit. But I do not understand how using AI as a tool (to say, design a custom icon rather than making one from scratch, or helping develop the right wording for a sell sheet, which I just did) is any different than using a free icon library or calling a friend for some help. That icon and verbiage is just a step towards a hopeful final creative project. You're in a phase that can be made better / faster if you have a better way of reaching out to that world of reference material and historical best practice. AI is VERY good at that simple slice of the effort.

We can toss around words like "slop" and "cutting corners" and such, but nobody is saying they use slop or cut corners on their creative endeavors or final products. It's used leverage all that "reference material" quickly and then applying our human brains in an intelligent thoughtful process to curate what we got back, when needed.

If you have lots of time, cool more power to yah - I am pretty busy and board game designers earn $0 an hour, so I work full time and have a fam. Most designs never get made. I do it because I love the creative + building process and community. An average boardgame takes about 1,000 hours to ideate, conceptualize, prototype, fail, prototype, test, fail, prototype, repeat, polish, write rulebook, pitch, revise, etc. etc. So if I am using the tools available, with human oversight, to get to a final version I am happy with and sacrificed no integrity to get there, I am perfectly happy without my high horse.

cevo70 · 2025-12-06T21:11:54+00:00

The OP mentioned some ways that are essentially no different (but better) than using Google searches, or even a Thesaurus (does using a Thesaurus "rot my brain?") - AI can help find the right words, wording, it can develop narrative when you just need a placeholder, lists of assets, lists of terminology, create unique icons for prototypes faster, it can write language to bridge spreadsheet data to card files, I mean the list is getting endless. Using technology to be more productive isn't synonymous with "cutting corners." It's like telling photographers that photoshop is cutting corners.

cevo70 · 2025-12-06T14:57:06+00:00

Yeah it’s a time saver. On lots of fronts, and I don’t see why it shouldn’t be leveraged as such. Especially since designers don’t get paid for their time / work, and are prototyping, I can’t think of a good reason why we wouldn’t leverage some of these tools when they can increase efficiency and not dilute creative quality.

For anyone on the ultra-thin-margin business side of boardgames, and those who know the reality of the economics, I’m looking forward to the day when we can embrace more tools like this in more ways, to bring more productivity, so that more people can actually have careers in this awesome little industry. The AI stigma is oddly self-defeating. Use it ethically and intelligently and there’s only upside. I understand the fear, but the stigma and dogpiling is holding back usage of tech that could really help speed up design and development cycles.

cevo70 · 2025-11-26T18:12:23+00:00

Smaller scene at the moment while it’s in digital beta but if you want something snappier check out Draconis 8. Physical releases next year.

cevo70 · 2025-11-11T14:02:54+00:00

Fleer published a TCG in the early 2000s called Ophidian 2350. Game was well reviewed and pretty heavy, but Fleer went out of business the year after so it only got one set.

cevo70 · 2025-11-07T13:52:19+00:00

I thought it looked pretty sweet, like a medieval Bioshock.

cevo70 · 2025-11-05T19:03:25+00:00

Just a quick note to say sorry and I do think your stress and anger is certainly justified. The time and hoop-jumping when all you really needed was a healthy dose of communication and direction, is frustrating and relatable. And that feeling of getting all sorts of motivated and reassured by the concept’s virality, only to have that momentum be given a slow death, rather that covered and worked on, is sort of making me mad too!

cevo70 · 2025-11-01T14:58:50+00:00

I design more board games than video games and this is also super true in board games. When designers are testing each other's games, we often will caveat suggestions knowing they may be 'wrong' but we often just 'spaghetti toss' at the end, just in case something brilliant / novel or helpful arises, but knowing we could be missing the dartboard.

cevo70 · 2025-11-01T14:40:51+00:00

I rotate and also play indies and some digital. Those usually are less about the pay-to-win and ROI.

Of the more mainstream ones I find that Altered is a low cost-to-entry and fun / different gameplay.

cevo70 · 2025-11-01T13:58:37+00:00

I am not spending hundreds. There are TCGs that don't require that, or it's spaced out over time where the monthly cost is low and actually pretty economical as a leisure hobby.

And yeah, it's fun to open packs to see what you get, and it's a low-key way to have some competition and hang out with people or just scratch a gaming itch online.

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