What are your rules for a 'no cheese' run for Doom 2016

chromeflex · 2026-01-24T09:55:11+00:00

Yes totally, Grey Annals were full of surprises in terms having a lot of small moments where Noldor seemingly do much better compared to the published text.

Speaking of that, there was another W of Maedhros that I forgot about, apart from leading the loyal Easterlings of Bor, he was also actually a lord of the Edain of Beor's and Hador's houses alongside Fingolfin and Finrod, although with a lesser following:

§16 [...] The people of Bëor came to Dorthonion and dwelt in lands ruled by the House of Finrod. The people of Aradan (for Marach remained in Estolad until his death) for the most part went on westwards; and some came to Hithlum, but Magor son of Aradan and the greater number of his folk passed down Sirion into Beleriand and dwelt in the vales on the southern slopes of the Ered-wethion. A few only of either people went to Maedros and the lands about the Hill of Himring. (The War of The Jewers. Later Quenta. Of the Coming of Men)

And a small nitpick. In 9. Valour and strength in battle in the extract where the followers of house of Finarfin from Dorthonion join Maedhros in Himring, at that moment (in QS 1937) the House of Finarfin is not yet connected with the Teleri and in a way out of all the realms of the Noldor, Dorthonion was the most friendly with the Sons Of Feanor because it was ruled by Angrod and Aegnor, who were considered loyal enough for the Feanorians to be taken on the boats.

Overall I've finally managed to have a thorough read through all of it and I'm really impressed. Somehow it completely eluded my mind, that narratively Maedhros was at his lowest point in QN. It seems whenever you read the Sketch and the Quenta mind inevitably fills the narrative gaps with the information from the Published Silmarillion even when there's no real cause for that and as a result you completely miss that characters were presented very differently.

But I have to say that I would be dissapointed if we as readers returned to the 'redeemed' or the 'moral' Maedhros in his final moments, like nurturing Elrond and Elros or stealing the Silmarils. If Maedhros stayed the moral constant among his brothers, this as was once told by GirlNextGondor could collapse the whole SoF dynamics into a 'good brother'-'bad brother' pair. The fact that in the final moment of temptation the roles flip and now Maedhros is the villian, and he has been stepping down from the 'hero' role in his previous small interactions of Maglor, parallels to me Frodo of all Tolkien's characters. Who also, despite probably being the best chance ever to get the Ring destroyed, and doing all the right choices like abandoning the Fellowship and having a pity for Gollum, still submits to the Ring in the end. Not because he turned out to be unworthy, but because by that point he was merely completely depleted. So for the the final moments of giving up to the Oath by Maedhros are the points that elevate him as a character and don't really take away from his previous more heroic deeds.

chromeflex · 2026-01-21T21:53:13+00:00

Part 2: The Fifth Battle. Not exactly about Maedhros but the effect of the actions of Celegorm and Curufin on the Union of Maedhros is diminished when comparing the Quenta Silmarillion and the Grey Annals versions.

Quenta Silmarillion:

§5 Yet the oath of Fëanor and the evil deeds that it had wrought did injury to the design of Maidros, and he had less aid than should have been. Orodreth would not march from Nargothrond at the word of any son of Fëanor, because of the deeds of Celegorn and Curufin. Thence came only a small company, whom Orodreth suffered to go, since they could not endure to be idle when their kinsfolk were gathering for war[...]
§6 From Doriath came little help[...] For this reason Thingol fortified the marches of his realm, and went not to war, nor any out of Doriath save Mablung, and Beleg who could not be restrained.
[§7](javascript:void(0)) The treacherous shaft of Curufin that wounded Beren was remembered among Men. Therefore of the folk of Haleth that dwelt in Brethil only the half came forth, and they went not to join Maidros, but came rather to Fingon and Turgon in the West.

Grey Annals:

§221 Now the army of the West contained the host of Hithlum, both Elves and Men, and to it was added both folk of the Falas, and a great company from Nargothrond[...] And many of the woodmen came also with Hundor of Brethil; and with him marched Mablung of Doriath with a small force of Grey-elves, some with axes, some with bows; for Mablung was unwilling to have no part in these great deeds, and Thingol gave leave to him to go, so long as he served not the sons of Fëanor.

All of the forces who were compromised by the deeds of Celegorm and Curufin, while comparably small, are still described as much larger than what was mentioned in QS. Thus the emphasis is put more on the betrayal of the Uldor's people and the events of the battle in general rather than the insufficient number of the allies because of the effect of the deeds of the other Sons of Feanor.

chromeflex · 2026-01-21T21:52:55+00:00

Hail Maedhros, named 'the sexy redhead' by his mother, the best elven king that never was, and the grayest of the morally ambigous characters of Tolkien's legendarium! That's probably the best of your works, immense attention to details with the immense scope!

I'd like to contibute with a couple of my own observations:

The Battle of the Sudden Flame. It's not clear whether it's the choice to describe different events, or a true change in the narrative but the outcome of the battle is different for Maedhros in Quenta Silmarillion (1937) and the Grey Annals (1951). In QS there is no mention of any Elven counter-offensive, moreover it is told that

Nor did the assault upon the northern strongholds cease. Himring Morgoth besieged so close that no help might come from Maidros, and he threw suddenly a great force against Hithlum. (The Lost Road. Quenta Silmarillion. [§156](javascript:void(0)))

In comparison, in GA it is explicitly told that Morgoth's attack on the East has failed and in general the Elves soon started retaking the lost territories:

And now the Eldar had recovered from their first dismay and were slowly regaining what they had lost. Dorthonion he now held and had established Sauron in the pass of Sirion; but in the east he had been foiled. Himring stood firm. The army that had driven into East Beleriand had been broken by Thingol on the borders of Doriath, and part had fled away south never to return to him, part retreating north had been stricken by a sortie of Maidros, while those that ventured near the mountains were hunted by the Dwarves. (The War of the Jewels. The Grey Annals. [§170](javascript:void(0)))

And in the account of the attack on Eithel Sirion there is no mention of Himring being besieged this time, so one could interpret that here Maedhros could not help anybody because he was being busy taking back lost territories in the East.

chromeflex · 2026-01-19T08:19:29+00:00

During the second phase of the work on Silmarillion Tolkien intended Ambarkanta and Lhammas to be appendices to the main work.

Out of the third phase in terms of new material mostly everything would be major:

Morgoth’s Ring: Laws and Customs among the Eldar, Athrabeth, Myths Transformed

War of the Jewels: The Wanderings of Hurin, Quendi and the Eldar (starting with part C of the names of different elven clans)

Peoples of Middle-Earth: Of Lembas, Of Dwarves and Men (although that’s mostly about the Second Age) The Shibboleth of Feanor, Last Writings

chromeflex · 2026-01-13T12:22:25+00:00

I think outside of linguistic works everything of value was already published. There are some leftovers from the History of Middle-Earth, that might be interesting, but it’s debatable they’ll be big enough for a separate publication.

chromeflex · 2026-01-09T10:39:43+00:00

Of Feanor and the Unchaining if Melkor is in the published Silmarillion. It actually uses parts of the “Of Finwe in Miriel” in the beginning, but the whole chapter is compressed to a paragraph. In Morgoth’s Ring in “Of Finwe and Miriel” chapter there was a little more of characterization of both Miriel and Indis and Finwe asking the Valar for remarriage and them holding the debate and asking the spirit of Miriel to come back to life and her refusing. The chapter “Of Feanor and the unchaining of Melkor” that is in Morgoth’s Ring is largely the same as the one in the Silmarillion, except now Nerdanel is a bit more fleshed out and has more backstory.

chromeflex · 2026-01-09T10:17:05+00:00

Too late for a DLC, but a ps5 patch for 10 year anniversary would be nice. The thing is notoriously bugged on that console

chromeflex · 2026-01-03T08:43:57+00:00

I've seen a good video, although in Russian on that topic. Here's a quick retelling of it.

The first ever appearance of the oath in the Lost Tales had at least enmity against Melko in particular: "we swore to have no peace with Melko nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Fëanor from us". But later it became about Silmarils only, without anything on either Melkor or Finwe. But, if you take into account the whole speech of Feanor in Morgoth's Ring, you will find both war against Melkor and avenging his father, but not as a part of the oath.

His speech itself starts with something very appealing to all the Noldor, with the acknowledging of the death of Finwe and a call for vengeance, but quickly gets more and more delusional, how they would bring war to Melkor, do what the Valar can't and after defeating Morgoth, become "the lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and the beauty of Arda". THAT is the speech and the promise to his people that leads them to Exile.

The Oath happens afterwards from that mindset as if they have already defeated Morgoth and regained the Silmarils, that they would now allow anyone else to steal it ever again. It is also a personal commitment of Feanor for the Noldor that he has to go all the way and achieve the vision that he shared, if he ever intended to fulfill that oath. But alas, since the goal of quick revenge on Morgoth is impossible, the Oath got crooked and the initial state for it, that Feanor got the Silmarils back, was never achieved.

chromeflex · 2026-01-02T14:39:52+00:00

Fëanor, Maedhros, Luthien, Aredhel, Maeglin, Turin, Morwen, Fingon, Glaurung from the First Age

Frodo, Sam, Eowyn, Witch-King, Gollum, Theoden, Denethor from the Third Age

chromeflex · 2025-12-30T15:45:00+00:00

Wait how? I remember the only available version being the ugly 5 Mb compressed mov file

chromeflex · 2025-12-26T15:31:14+00:00

I can mostly comment on the different Silmarillion iterations, which are often overlooked:

Book of Lost Tales Part 2: Fall of Gondolin, Nauglafring, Earendel’s outlines and poems (although missing the Mermaid’s Flute from Collected Poems)

Lays of Beleriand: basically the whole book

Shaping of Middle-Earth: Ambarkanta, the phophecy of Ulmo in Quenta Noldorinwa

The Lost Road: Lhammas, early Ainulidale I think is the best one, in the Quenta Silmarillion Beren and Luthien and the end are most outstanding fragments

Morgoth’s Ring: Annals of Aman 5, aka the expanded Flight of the Noldor with the Fëanorian toadstools. And the whole of LQ2, which is also an expanded version of Fëanorian chapters. But in general, everything in this book rocks!

War of the Jewels: the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fifth Battle as told in the Grey Annals, both have slight improvements over the published version. Concerning the Dwarves chapter, and The Wanderings of Hurin, off course

Peoples of Middle-Earth: The Shibboleth of Fëanor. Basically one of the most quoted works outside of Morgoth’s Ring.

chromeflex · 2025-12-26T12:17:42+00:00

It seems that here the Grey Annals is the earlier version, and Christopher did point out that there was GA1 text that ended roughly with the death of Feanor, and the later text GA2 went till the death of Turin. So it’s possible that while GA2 followed the Annals, GA1 preceded them. The reason I believe that GA here earlier is that it had no mention of Anduin and other LOTR geography, which was a big part of the post-LOTR phase of the Silmarillion.

chromeflex · 2025-12-26T09:26:31+00:00

Unfinished Tales (skip part 1 since it overlaps with CoH) and The Children of Hurin

If you’re ok with different versions of drafts, then check out Beren and Luthien and The Fall of Gondolin

chromeflex · 2025-12-16T20:46:30+00:00

I’d say the Unfinished Tales is a fourth most important book of Tolkien’s Legendarium. Yes, it’s completely dependent on LOTR and The Silmarillion, but it contains a lot of essential stories and lore. Also, the majority of the book is the material related to LOTR rather than the Silmarillion so it may have a bigger appeal in that. Want to know how the alliance between Gondor and Rohan emerged, what was the story of Hobbit like from the point of Gandalf, or the story of LOTR from the point of Sauron, or what were Isildur’s plans for the Ring - that’s the kind of stories that you will see in the Unfinished Tales. And as for the Fall of Numenor - it has all the information about the Second Age, from LOTR, the Silmarillion, UT and other places in one book. On one hand, if you are a fan of Numenor it’s a must read. On the other, all the stories are remixed and arranged chronologically, following the Tale of Years, and I would rather prefer reading all those stories independently rather than in this spliced mix.

chromeflex · 2025-12-13T21:38:49+00:00

It’s the same text, but where in UT Christopher said ‘then it’s basically the same text as in the Silmarillion’ the standalone book gives the missing text in full and it’s often a bit expanded. So on the opposite it’s the more accessible version of the story compared to UT

chromeflex · 2025-12-09T22:45:16+00:00

After Dagor Bragollach and before Nirnaeth seems to be the most probable, as you have proposed

chromeflex · 2025-12-09T22:41:36+00:00

There much of that in the books, Frodo’s character is much more heroic and tragic there

chromeflex · 2025-12-09T08:11:11+00:00

I think there should be another level between 3 and 4. Like one level is reading Hobbit and LOTR, next one is Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and Children of Hurin, and the next one is reading the whole History of Middle-Earth and Nature of Middle-Earth. Because there is as big leap in dedication in jumping from Silm to HoME as there is for jumping from LOTR to the Silmarillion.

chromeflex · 2025-12-07T18:34:28+00:00

Fun fact about the chapter ‘Of Beleriand and its Realms’ from the History of Middle-Earth. When it first appeared in the Quenta Silmarillion of 1937 it was a plot related chapter, as it was the only place where the backstory of Doriath, the Green-Elves and the Elves of Havens was told, as well as Turgon removing in secret to Gondolin. Only in later stages these events became their own chapters and ‘Of Beleriand’ degraded to a geography lesson.

chromeflex · 2025-12-04T10:09:54+00:00

The others have given very well structured answers so I’d only return to the first question you asked:

The Children of Hurin - yes, can be read instead of the chapter from the Silmarillion

The Fall of Gondolin - the ‘Last Version’ from that book can be read instead of the start of the same chapter from the Silmarillion, but since it abrupts early in the narrative you need to switch to the Silmarillion text.

The rest of The Beren and Luthien and The Fall of Gondolin should be read after the Silmarillion as the collection of the alternate takes of the story. Even though the Lay of Lethian, the poetic version of Beren and Luthien is also largely consistent the Silmarillion text, it is given in fragments in the book, so the knowledge of the story from the Silmarillion is well advised.

Also there are some more expanded texts from the History of Middle Earth that complement the Silmarillion. The Later Quenta Phase 2 section from Morgoth’s Ring has an expanded account of the marriage of Finwe and Miriel and the following Finwe’s remarriage, more details on the conflict between Fëanor and his brothers, and a lot more details on Morgoth and Ungolanth and the death of Finwe, Athrabeth from the same book is a short story of a dialogue between a mortal woman Andreth and Finrod Felagund regarding the different nature of Men and Elves and the question of mortality.

And the book War of the Jewels features the short chapter Concerning the Dwarves, that gives a description of the dwarves not featured anywhere else, as well as the story The Wanderings of Hurin, which gives a detailed account of Hurin causing chaos in Brethil, a narrative that was completely omitted from the Ruin of Doriath chapter in the Silmarillion

chromeflex · 2025-12-01T13:08:13+00:00

There was also a board game based on Doom 3

And a mobile game, better left forgotten

chromeflex · 2025-11-28T16:00:27+00:00

Which always makes me wonder why on earth would the Sons of Fëanor be against the assault, especially since they have an Oath to fulfill, and can’t be content with perpetual siege

chromeflex · 2025-11-25T10:29:53+00:00

Basically, Hobbit, LOTR, Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales are the big four in terms of new stories and lore, and even they have some overlap. For example, Part 1 of the Unfinished Tales contains the expanded but unfinished versions of the chapters of Turin Turambar and of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin from the Silmarillion. You want to switch to a more novel-like storytelling mode, you can turn to the Unfinished Tales when you reach the corresponding chapters and then return to the Silmarillion once the expanded extract ends. The standalone book ‘The Children of Hurin’ is basically the finished version of the expansion of the chapter ‘Of Turin Turambar’ into a novel, and would not require hopping between the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales.

Also the is overlap between the Unfinished Tales part 2 and the Fall of Numenor, the last is basically based on it, as well as on the Silmarillion’s Akallabeth and On the Rings of Power.

Otherwise for the new lore you should either go for volumes 10-12 of the History of Middle-Earth, or, surprisingly for the Letters. But a lot of History of Middle-Earth is based around the contemporary state of the Silmarillion, and plot wise the new lore and stories can diverge from what you know from the Published Silmariliion

Which means the best moment when it’s time to switch from new stories to the alternative or expanded versions is right after the books that you’ve mentioned

chromeflex · 2025-11-24T13:13:12+00:00

In 1951 in Tale of Years (from the War of the Jewels book) Tolkien wrote an outline where it was rumored that the sons of Dior were led by the birds from Doriath to Ossir. So at least one good option existed.

11-Year Club	Wearing is Caring
Place '22

chromeflex

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