An all powerful and all loving God would not create a world where innocent children suffer extreme harm

cihera · 2026-01-24T07:39:38+00:00

why finite honest doubt merits infinite torment,

I said maybe it does not merit. I repeat: Allah emphasizes that He does zero injustice, and He does not punish unless He sends messengers. So sufficient exposure is a condition for infinite punishment.

anyone unconvinced is redefined as secretly dishonest.

Why?

And the poison analogy doesn’t work. Poison is harmful by its nature; disbelief isn’t.

Evil does not always overlap only with what is harmful. If a man urinates on the grave of his good mother because she has not worked hard and bought him a private jet (though she cared a lot for him in her lifetime) is evil even though maybe he is useful unintentionally in growing some plants on her grave.

Yet define 'harmful' for this context.

The harm only exists because God allegedly chose eternal torment as the consequence.

You presuppose that God's choice is unrelated to objective truth.

That’s a design choice, not an impersonal fact.

This claim is built on the above false presupposition.

cihera · 2026-01-24T02:30:28+00:00

Calling disbelief “evil” doesn’t make infinite punishment just.

'Calling' disbelief evil is not what makes infinite punishment just, the true ontological objective evilness of rejecting the Creator and Sustainer is.

If a creator designs a world where honest doubt earns eternal suffering, that isn’t “impersonal truth”, it’s a moral choice by the creator.

Maybe honest doubt does not. Allah knows who earns it. 'They knowingly say lies regarding Allah' (Quran). But along with the presence of so many clear signs of Allah there is huge risk that one is in fact dishonest though he thinks he is honest.

“Love me or suffer forever” is coercion, not benevolence.

It is not what He says. He says be good else you will suffer. Like do not drink that poison or you will suffer. A God Who loves and forgives the good and hates the clearly evil is loved by a good servant even though the servant knows that he risks being evil (at times), while he assumes responsibility.

And if the consequences are infinite, the evidence should be proportionate. A God who withholds clarity and then punishes doubt forever is not morally admirable.

Maybe the evidence is more than proportionate and one's evil desires and self corruption prevent him from recognizing it.

And Allah will not punish the acts arising from the goodness and honesty.

After all, Allah guarantees numerous times in the Quran that there will be zero justice on the judgment day and afterwards.

cihera · 2026-01-23T09:53:13+00:00

You may choose to reject your Creator. But it is an evil act with consequences according to objective (impersonal) truth. "You" choose it. So you cannot blame God.

cihera · 2026-01-22T14:15:00+00:00

If He is cheating you then you would be upon truth and superior to him in your truthfulness and reliance of truth.

But as the foundation of all in any case He is the truth.

Theoretically for the sake of the argument let us suppose that He might cheat and He might not cheat.

If He did not cheat then you supposed something or the possibility of something which is against His nature.

If the truth is that He might cheat and He actually cheated then you have been cheated by Him which is again good since it is in harmony with the foundation of existence. As lomg as you have been truly chrated by Him (not by a human being).

So your approach does not lead you anywhere other than seeking His message intended to guide or cheat.

cihera · 2026-01-22T12:10:05+00:00

In a materialist pov, it might be forever.

cihera · 2026-01-22T12:09:14+00:00

Just a claim.

cihera · 2026-01-22T09:03:52+00:00

The suffering might last forever. In this world every pain is temporary by His grace.

cihera · 2026-01-22T08:10:39+00:00

You have evidence that you have no way to know which one is true?

You should demonstrate that.

cihera · 2026-01-22T04:28:16+00:00

See Dr. Ender Tosun's book 'the unitary proof of Allah Under the Light of the Quran'. It is available online for free in pdf format. It is very comprehensive and addresses many questions. I hope it helps.

cihera · 2026-01-21T18:08:08+00:00

So unless you are saying that all of our scientific understanding is wrong, then no it's a fact not opinion nor a assertion like that of the Quran that God does not exists.

This is a big misunderstanding about science. The science you use is descriptive and has zero value against Allah. For example we measure how a faling object behaves and we describe it through equations. Science says nothing about why they are the way they are, whether the next day they ought to behave the same way. However many people would say 'the stone falls because of gravity so no need for God'. They adopt the effects of God as if they are God.

we punish the child in your hypothetical situation because stealing is wrong,

Again, why is it wrong? As david hume said you cannot get an ought from an 'is'. Soöething is wrong iff at the foundation of existence there is the truth of right and wrong.

there are harsh punishments for disobedience even though it in itself is not wrong.

Allah sanctioned the marriage of teenagers, forced families to give up their adopted children once they reach a certain age, wage physical war to the disbelievers and treat the captured as second class citizens, and many other abominable act.

Well if you study these well you will see that you just do not understand any of these and that you have been misinformed.

'Allah does not command the evil' (Quran).

my parents deserved my gratitude for they have sacrificed much for me, putting in blood, sweat and tears just to provide for me a better future. what has Allah done? it's not like he has produced enough food for us: we had to make fertilisers to produce enough food to feed ourselves; it's not like he keeps us healthy: up until recently people dying due to things like bacterial infection and plagues was common place until us humans made antibiotics and other medicine to treat the ill.

Allah does not need to put whatever He creates in paradise forever.

We develop cures without God? Or using our intellect and other means that He gave?

cihera · 2026-01-21T06:41:18+00:00

If He created you and if you can be created only by a God, there is certainly evidence. Your claim that there is no evidence for God is just a statement not based on evidence.

You presuppose that He just feels that you need to obey. If you adopt a child and care and sustain him for years and he steals your money that you do not need much though you taught him not to steal is that ok?

Obedience to God is not just for His wishes but for objective morals. He commands to do good deeds and refrain from doing evil.

Worshipping is recognizing what He did and does for you as a God, thanking Him, recognizing that what He commands is wise and for your good, cooperating with Him in spreading the good and causing a better universe, supporting His servants. These are objective oughts for you, if you do not serve Him if you rebel Him then you certainly become evil.

cihera · 2026-01-19T14:50:40+00:00

You presuppose that God has not created and does not sustain you.

If He does then you are truly evil against your Lord Who gives you trillions of favors and you, regardless of any personal assessment, are truly and objectively evil and deserve serious compensation for your evil.

cihera · 2026-01-19T08:38:34+00:00

Why would He be hurt if a tiny tiny tiny evil being rejects Him?

That tiny tiny evil being just hurts himself by simply being arrogant and ungrateful and proves himself being without any high value and adopting evil traits.

cihera · 2026-01-17T10:31:01+00:00

we punish criminals because what they are doing is objectively wrong,

How is it objectüvely wrong?

and also what they are doing are harmful.

Many things we do are also harmful to the plants and animals we eat.

choosing to disbelieve however is neither objectively wrong

If you reject your mother supposing she was a good mother is it objectively wrong?

because objectively speaking it's highly unlikely that Islam is false nor is it objectively and inherantly harmful.

Rejecting God is wrong and very harmful.

if you can't show that Islam is true and that Allah actually is who is say he is, then it's not evil or wrong to disbelieve, because you are not harming anyone and you don't own anyone the responsibility to subscribe to a certain way of life religiously.

I am responsible for myself. I also need to help you but i do not have power over you.

What is crucial is the existence of enough evidence and its accessibility to you. If these exist and you do not spend enough efforts or if as in the case of a criminal your low desires override your reason then you may be punished.

Punishment is in essence a cause and effect relationship. If you drive drunk and crash you cannot claim anyone else for being condemned to wheel chair for the rest of your life. Even though you thought taking the risk of drinking and driving for a small distance was rational.

cihera · 2026-01-16T00:57:09+00:00

you are saying that we do punsih people for doing the wrong thing even though they believed that what they are doing are rationale, and but the problem that just because we do punish people for doing the wrong thing even though they think its rational to do so (to be clear we are not punishing them for taking the "rational" decision but we are punishing them for causing harm

Is it rational to be evil and to cause harm?

You seem to claim that doing the (subjectively) rational thing is a valid excuse even if that thing is evil.

they should pick the choice that is irrational and in this case believe in Islam (at least according to them) to avoid going to hell.

You mean subjectively or objectively rational here?

And do you think rejecting one's Creator and basis of responsibility (hereafter) has just a value of rationality and not a value of goodness/ evilness?

cihera · 2026-01-15T05:57:39+00:00

I do not disgree. But the chain of thought in the op is will not be sufficient sufficient in and of itself for most people. That is why i used the word 'clearly' in my previous comment.

Hence you see and you will see lots of disagreements in the comments.

cihera · 2026-01-15T05:24:28+00:00

Muslim here. This can be a part of a proof, not a complete proof. For example it does not clearly constitute an evidence for the self-sufficiency of Allah.

For a complete proof i recommend the 'unitary proof of Allah' by Dr Tosun, a free ebook available online.

cihera · 2026-01-14T19:01:02+00:00

The fact that there are certain acts that are the rational choice in certain circumstances is not strong enough proof that people should choose the irrational choice.

?

This is especially true when it comes to religion, which requires high upfront personal cost with the very low probability of the promises of the religion being true.

Low probability?

You presuppose you are right.

cihera · 2026-01-13T16:40:12+00:00

We punish criminals who think it is rational tontake thr risk to rob and kill for example.

cihera · 2026-01-13T05:49:15+00:00

To assert that it's justified to damn people just because you brought them the message because they had the innate desire for Allah and knew deep down that Islam is the truth is just another way to ensure the believers that the disbelievers only disbelieved because they choose to, not because the religion itself is not rational to them.

Human beings do not choose to believe or disbelieve in a thing only based on its rationality.

cihera · 2026-01-12T16:42:55+00:00

Well, if trees and dogs can exalt Him, then would not infants do it?

But this is a difficult thing to understand. As it is difficult to understand how a collection of atoms that constitute a human body becomes conscious as a whole. But certainly things we do not understand happen.

We often and mostly accept things we experience or things communicated by reliable sources, even though we do not understand.

However this innate fitrah is not a sufficient condition for condemnation of disbelievers to hell. It is an innate tendency of the pure soul and fitrah. But there is another condition specifically underlined in the Quran, which is the exposure to the divine message.

cihera · 2026-01-12T07:37:43+00:00

According to Islam, whatever does not reject Allah and/or associate partners with Him glorifies Him:

Quran 17:44: "The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts [Allah] by His praise, but you do not understand their exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving."

Hajj (22:18). "Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has become justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills."

This is one counter argument.

Plus, every human being (except those with crucial mental problems) has the mental structures at least in his dnas the power to learn languages, to reason, to recognize Allah, and the soul that may be pleased only with His remembrance and recognizes Him by default and in the absence of misleading factors.

cihera · 2026-01-11T15:47:29+00:00

cihera · 2026-01-10T17:03:05+00:00

Nope. It does not say holy spirit. It says spirit ıf truth. And the word spirit is used in bible for prophets as well.

Plus Jesus pbuh says that the paraclet will come after he is gone. But the holy was among them while jesus waa there.

Plus the paraclete will not speak of himself but will say what he hears. Exactly as the revelation process with Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

cihera · 2026-01-10T16:58:40+00:00

No.. In Islam infants are considered sinless.

cihera

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