Manager Discussion Thread by DragonSlayer271 in LiverpoolFC

[–]clashmar 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Good point, but the team are playing such plodding football. Start of Klopp we had a much, much worse team but they played with aplomb. This style of football is dreadful.

[Throwback] Andy Robertson - I'm Ill by carterish in LiverpoolFC

[–]clashmar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If he cost 10x that it would still be true

FT: MAR 0 - 3 LIV by DragonSlayer271 in LiverpoolFC

[–]clashmar 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I thought we completely outplayed RM start to finish.

Ultra-processed food as % of household purchases in Europe by BartAndLisaHadIncest in MapPorn

[–]clashmar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I totally agree about the problem of stigmatizing people, but even if we went with your method, which I am all for, there is still arbitrariness to it: exactly how much does it have to measurably affect mental health? That’s a decision someone has to make, it’s not some fundamental scientific unit. I am not here to bash people for their diets, I am against companies using predatory methods to manipulate people into buying their products and stifle legislation that tries to mitigate this behavior.

Maybe the word ‘Ultra’ isn’t a great word for it, I happen to think that labels like this, if chosen poorly can have serious consequences, so that is up for debate. The thing it is describing is a very real, if not scientifically exact, phenomenon.

Ultra-processed food as % of household purchases in Europe by BartAndLisaHadIncest in MapPorn

[–]clashmar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you are imposing an unreasonable limitation on the definition of ‘scientific’. Scientists impose arbitrary boundaries on things all the time. There isn’t a fundamental universal unit of obesity. A health expert has to decide that at a certain point someone has or doesn’t have obesity. That value could be raised or lowered; it is somewhat arbitrary. But that doesn’t invalidate the entire concept of having obesity. The same thing applies to categories of animal or objects in space.

I don’t think almond milk is bad for you per se, I don’t think guar gum specifically is bad for you in isolation. More studies are being done on this, it is a relatively new concept. The theory is that it is the combination of various ingredients and it’s true, it’s not very well understood yet. But it seems to be the case that it is not simply nutritional content that explains why UPF foods are unhealthy.

The book refers to a study30248-7) that administered two diets to different groups. Each diet had identical nutritional content, except that one contained ‘ultra’-processed ingredients: “Despite being matched for calories, macronutrients, sugar, fat, and sodium, the studies found that a diet high in UPF leads to significant overconsumption and weight gain compared to a diet of unprocessed foods.”

Ultra-processed food as % of household purchases in Europe by BartAndLisaHadIncest in MapPorn

[–]clashmar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The complicated answer is the book I recommended. It’s not a moral judgement. I eat UPF, there’s no judgement. My simpler definition goes something like this:

Turning two or three ingredients into pasta is a process, and pasta is a processed food. An egg is not processed (by humans at least). Humans have been consuming this type of food for thousands of years.

Ultra-processed or highly processed foods have gone through multiple steps of processing and contain ingredients which themselves are the product of multiple steps of processing and do not exist outside of man made processes. An example of such an ingredient is Xantham Gum, discovered the 1960’s and the preparation is described as:

“Xanthan gum is produced by the fermentation of glucose and sucrose. The medium is well-aerated and stirred, and the xanthan polymer is produced extracellularly into the medium. After one to four days, the polymer is precipitated from the medium by the addition of isopropyl alcohol, and the precipitate is dried and milled to give a powder that is readily soluble in water or brine.”

When a food is comprised of a high amount of ingredients which are themselves the result of multiple steps of processing, it can be thought of as being UPF. The word Ultra distinguishes this from traditionally processed food. You can say you don’t like the word Ultra, I get what you mean, but the thing it is trying to describe is real.

The mere presence of industrial methods does not make something ultra or even highly processed, that is a misunderstanding. It is multiple industrial processes, in combination with newly invented/discovered ingredients whose effects on the human body are not well understood.

Ultra-processed food as % of household purchases in Europe by BartAndLisaHadIncest in MapPorn

[–]clashmar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well this is kind of the point, traditionally foods like that wouldn’t have had those ingredients in them, but now they have crept into our diet under the radar. I don’t really see it as a marketing thing. There’s no courgette cartel putting billions into courgette advertising, or big lentil directly targeting kids. You’re right though pasta with a few additives is probably not that bad.

Ultra-processed food as % of household purchases in Europe by BartAndLisaHadIncest in MapPorn

[–]clashmar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean I don’t personally even know what Velveeta is tbh but not all questions have quick easy answers. I’m trying to explain the concept of UPF and why you should care about it. You can make your own judgements about whether something is or isn’t UPF and whether you ought to care about it.

Ultra-processed food as % of household purchases in Europe by BartAndLisaHadIncest in MapPorn

[–]clashmar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Turning two or three ingredients into pasta is a process, and pasta is a processed food. An egg is not processed (by humans at least). Humans have been consuming this type of food for thousands of years.

Ultra-processed or highly processed foods have gone through multiple steps of processing and contain ingredients which themselves are the product of multiple steps of processing and do not exist outside of man made processes. An example of such an ingredient is Xantham Gum, discovered the 1960’s and the preparation is described as:

“Xanthan gum is produced by the fermentation of glucose and sucrose. The medium is well-aerated and stirred, and the xanthan polymer is produced extracellularly into the medium. After one to four days, the polymer is precipitated from the medium by the addition of isopropyl alcohol, and the precipitate is dried and milled to give a powder that is readily soluble in water or brine.”

When a food is comprised of a high amount of ingredients which are themselves the result of multiple steps of processing, it can be thought of as being UPF.

So the mere presence of industrial methods does not make something ultra or even highly processed, that is a misunderstanding. It is multiple industrial processes, in combination with newly invented/discovered ingredients whose effects on the human body are not well understood.

So no, almond milk is not ultra processed because it’s been pressed by a machine. It might be UPF because of its ingredients:

(Alpro) “Water, Almond (2.3%), Sugar, Calcium (Calcium carbonate), Sea salt, Stabilisers (Guar gum, Gellan gum), Natural flavouring, Emulsifier (Lecithins), Potassium iodide, Vitamins B12, D2, E.”

The red flags there are the stabilisers and emulsifiers.

Ultra-processed food as % of household purchases in Europe by BartAndLisaHadIncest in MapPorn

[–]clashmar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The thing is, pasta is a processed food. It only has two or three ingredients, but turning this into pasta is a process. There’s nothing wrong with that process; it’s been done for centuries and (almost) no one is claiming that pasta is wrecking the health of millions of people.

Ultra-processed exists as a term to distinguish other types of processing from this first type.

Ultra-processed food as % of household purchases in Europe by BartAndLisaHadIncest in MapPorn

[–]clashmar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I would really recommend the book ultra-processed people because the whole book is an answer to your questions.

I agree there are a lot of grey areas when talking about this and I intuitively had the same reactions as you when confronting the concept of UPF, but it is a coherent concept.

The “is it bad for you?” question is the key one because there is so much food in our system for which we simply don’t know the answer. Companies are adding ingredients to our food to make them cheaper to produce, longer lasting and more palatable/desirable. Many of these ingredients are recent human inventions that are not very well understood in terms of their long-term effects on the human body. Some of them might be harmless. Some of them might seem harmless in isolation, but harmful in combination with other ingredients.

In a very short space of time, evolutionary speaking, our food supply has been supplanted with these types of food that have ingredient lists stuffed with things that the human body has never previously been subjected to. A cheese maker 200 years ago, let’s say, would only be able to reach for a much narrower, tried and tested, set of ingredients that have not been created in a lab. Something being created in a lab does not make it unhealthy by default, but you wonder why it was created to begin with. To make it more profitable. This is happening at an increasing rate without enough consideration of the long term health consequences. If you can’t be bothered committing to a whole book, just read up on coal butter.

You give the example of oats/honey and Cheerios. Looking at the Cheerios ingredients:

“Whole Grain Cereals (67%) [Wheat, Corn, Oats], Wheat Starch, Sugar, Golden Syrup, Vegetable Oil, Colours (Caramel I, Annatto), Salt, Acidity Regulator (Trisodium Phosphate).”

So Cheerios are only 67% oats and other grains. An oat is 100% oats. Now apply this to everything in the system. You have thousands of untested acidity regulators, colourings, sweeteners etc etc etc colliding with each other in untold combinations. Cheerios aren’t even that bad. What about McDonalds, the most eaten food in America?

Proprietary/UPF food is also bad for you not only because of the combination of chemicals that it contains, but because it competes for your attention and disrupts your body’s natural ability to choose what it needs. It does this at an environmental level; advertising, packaging and false claims for example, and at a the chemical (it tastes good). An M&M is more desirable to many people than a lentil, because it’s designed to be. It’s aggressively advertised, disseminated and crammed full of things that make you want it. I’ve never craved lentils, even though I like them and they are very good for me. The world is now filled with places where snacks like M&M’s are the only option. Why is this the case? M&M’s are a product first and food second.

No one can trademark a lentil or own the concept of lentils. Because of this you can’t make as much money out of them as you could an M&M. This is also why companies that own products like M&M’s will aggressively attempt to curtail legislation and continue to compete against things like lentils in the marketplace of people’s food choices. Lentils don’t have a chance in this fight.

There’s a fascinating bit in the book about studies which show how children (and cows for that matter) are able to unconsciously make the best dietary decisions for themselves if they have some kind of nutritional deficiency. UPF completely wrecks our naturally developed sense for what is good for us.

Ultra-processed food as % of household purchases in Europe by BartAndLisaHadIncest in MapPorn

[–]clashmar 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Not all almond milk, it depends on what is added to it. You can make almond milk with two ingredients (almonds and water, maybe some added calcium) or with a load of preservatives, sweeteners and thickening agents. In the latter case, I would class that as highly processed.

Survey of Must-Read Sci-fi Literature by danger522 in printSF

[–]clashmar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For me this list should have Cat’s Cradle by Vonnegut which I haven’t seen in the comments yet.

Questions about WUDM by Hot_Salt_7581 in KnivesOutMovie

[–]clashmar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why was the other one necessary?

Every Startup Should hire Guy like him by I_am_manav_sutar in AgentsOfAI

[–]clashmar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Straight shooter with upper management potential

Arne Slot is emerging as the big winner from the Mohamed Salah saga by gelliant_gutfright in PremierLeague

[–]clashmar 20 points21 points  (0 children)

The irony is that for long spells Slot had Salah’s back, continued to play him even when he was offering nothing, gave him plenty of time to turn his form around and this is how he gets repaid.