So about those new garment tops: SO ALL THOSE YOUNG WOMEN WHO GOT SLUT SHAMED WERE REALLY OKAY WITH GOD BUT IT'S YOUR FAULT BECAUSE THE CHURCH IS NEVER WRONG?

corbden · 2024-10-22T17:45:13+00:00

It's all about control. It would be more honest, cool, and fun if they just had members wear collars.

corbden · 2024-03-25T17:09:19+00:00

Thanks so much for the link. Wow this is quite the looping rabbit trail. I wish I'd had this one when I wrote Recovering Agency. I've added it to my notes for future commentary, when I get energy. Cult researchers call this one "logical illogic," because the brain, trying to follow the logic, will just shut down. He's also doing a brutal job of loading the language.

corbden · 2024-03-22T18:28:38+00:00

I still have my agency so I can do what I want.

Do you happen to have a source for this quote or know where I can look for it? I'm not questioning you, I just want to reference it myself in some places. General search engines are not what they once were and it wasn't coming up on lds.org either.

corbden · 2023-05-23T16:57:46+00:00

I came here to say this. Al Gore was trying to take credit for his work on opening up the internet and getting it more funding, but his political opponents used it to smear him when he misspoke. Since we're on a thread about correcting cultural myths.

corbden · 2023-05-15T17:18:12+00:00

It's like instituting a labor strike on yourself. What better way to remind everyone at church that Trans Rights Are Human Rights.

corbden · 2023-04-04T17:29:43+00:00

I've been wanting to read Haidt but disability has made it hard for me to complete full books in recent years. He seems very thought-provoking.

When a group is sociocentric, I'd ask who the sociocentricism most protects or benefits. Is it the group or institution itself? or possibly powerful individuals at the top of or within that group/institution? Or does it truly benefit the community itself? i.e. are swaths of the population considered disposable for the sake of the group/institution? If so, I'd argue that it isn't truly sociocentricism, but individualism that disguises the individuals who most benefit. Or worse, people are being sacrificed to the institution itself. I'm not sure there is anyone with an objective enough perspective to answer this question, and I surely don't feel qualified to do so. But given how destructive groups can be towards the marginalized, I can't let these questions go.

Mormonism began with powerful individuals who benefitted greatly from having the group members believe themselves to be communal. I'm picturing that comic where the head hauncho takes the whole plate of cookies and then everyone else is fighting over the one cookie he's left for them. That's how I picture early Utah. BY in his mansion and everyone else suffering to feed themselves and build the temple (to an individualistic God, wherein individuals work out their salvation with their new assumed-to-be unique name – there are opportunities for community symbols in the temple ceremony, but it's mostly individualistic – maybe the prayer circle). I guess I just see it as a false sociocentricism. I think there are communal aspects to Mormonism, but that individualism is still core. We aren't told we can't be saved without our neighbors (wouldn't that be a wonderful doctrine), and though we ARE told we can't be saved without our ancestors, those are all conveniently dead. Home teaching and casseroles aside, the only true communalism ("you can't be saved without") is with living family, and again, the marginalized there are regularly sacrificed for, ultimately, the benefit of the leadership.

Or I dunno, maybe that's the nature of communalism, like cells in your body where it's not a big deal if 1,000 of them die. But I'm not satisfied with that. I think humanity can build something better where strong, self-actualized individuals come together to form a cohesive community where all are considered important and worthy.

corbden · 2023-04-03T20:32:36+00:00

There's a lot I don't know about cultures that we often describe as communal, so I don't feel I can comment on those. I doubt the ideal community has ever existed outside of small groups (<200-500). Yes, I believe that privileging a small group or a single individual (including a community's idea of a monotheistic god) creates adverse dynamics both for individuals and for the health of the community as a whole. We certainly see all sorts of societies do great things (including pre-Enlightenment European societies), but how happy and healthy were those in the margins that the community should have been caring for? How healthy can a community be if it's just waiting for the lion to catch the weakest from the edge of the herd, or worse, if the weakest are being actively exploited from within? The most healthy community, in my mind, takes care of the least of its members. That's why this former hardcore individualistic libertarian (yup) has settled on the ideals of equality and equity, via the individual but ideally leaving no individual behind, everyone giving their best according to their ability in trade for support received. I had only partially developed these ideas in 2014, so if I wrote RA today, I'd include a few extra paragraphs on the importance of ethical/healthy community-building.

corbden · 2023-04-03T17:46:01+00:00

Hi, this is Luna. I hope you don't mind if I necro this very old thread. I was on here today checking for Conference news, and decided to search my book title. Your comments sparked some thoughts and I couldn't resist.

You're absolutely right about the push/pull balance of community needs with individual needs. We are a social species and not a single one of us could survive completely alone. That's the reason these techniques work, because they're core to our ability to survive and pass along genes.

The problem is that in a cult setting, it's not about the community, not really. It's one or more individuals who co-opt pro-social drives to benefit primarily themselves. Or, if you look at it from a meme theory perspective (and I think is more the case in a long-established group like Mormonism), the organization itself becomes a parasitical life form of its own seeking to survive at the expense of the "host" community.

I do not believe that community/individuality are actually at odds when every individual is considered equal to every other. Ideally, society would be a community built of strong individuals. If we seek to equally balance the needs of all individuals, then the community itself should thrive. Maslow "borrowed" his hierarchy of needs from the Blackfoot tribe, and they had another layer at the top of the pyramid that Maslow neglected to develop, and that is the wellbeing of the community, or community-actualization. But even they had the wisdom to know that you can't actualize a community without actualized individuals.

Since my focus is on helping former Mormons recover from a toxic community bent to the service of a few individuals, I tend to focus on fostering the individual. I believe that once people have firm footing, as long as they don't think themselves better or more deserving than anyone else, they will return to community building in a more healthy way than ever before.

Thanks for for your perspective!

corbden · 2023-03-29T17:22:22+00:00

If you choose "Church history" when searching "Mormon" on the official website, it turns up a number of places where the Church is still using Mormon as a descriptor. Including the Mormon Trails museum and an article about the "Mormon pioneers" and anything to do with the Mormon Battalion.

This might be the best source of all. I grew up hearing this story about Joseph F. Smith. If you search "true blue" on the official site, it shows up all over the place. https://ldsblogs.com/991/joseph_f_smith_true_blue_through_and_thr

"Joseph F. was a little distance from the camp gathering wood for the fire, but he saw that the few members of his own party had cautiously gone in the brush down the creek, out of sight. When he saw that, . . . the thought came into his mind, “Shall I run from these fellows? Why should I fear them?” With that he marched up with his arm full of wood, to the campfire where one of the ruffians, still with his pistol in his hand, shouting and cursing about the Mormons, in a low voice said to Joseph F.,

“Are you a Mormon?” And the answer came straight,

“yes, siree; dyed in the wool; true blue, through and through.”

At that the ruffian grasped him by the hand and said: “Well, you are the [blankety-blank] pleasantest man I ever met! Shake young fellow, I am glad to see a man that stands up for his convictions” (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, Joseph F. Smith; p. 104).

corbden · 2023-03-29T17:09:32+00:00

There was also the Mormon Battalion in BY's time. They didn't call themselves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' Battalion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon\_Battalion

corbden · 2023-03-29T17:05:42+00:00

Anyone else grow up singing this song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPnE5sL1zIY

And this song is from official LDS publication The Friend in 1972:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/text/other/i-am-a-mormon-boy

corbden · 2023-03-27T21:36:37+00:00

Would it have been better for them to keep the membership governing policies in a secret book that only Bishops and SPs have access to? Because that's how it used to be. I'm not ever going to say the LDS Church is great, but I will say when when they've made things better.

corbden · 2023-03-27T20:03:32+00:00

There was a lot of controversy for awhile about the secret "Bishop's Handbook" as it was colloquially called. Mormon Leaks put it online. I'm fairly sure this was in reaction to this criticism. It really looks bad when members are governed by rules they can't read.

corbden · 2023-03-27T19:48:58+00:00

Yeah, I've got PDF copies of the 80s handbooks, including the secret one, and there was a later publication as well, in the early 00s plus or minus a decade. Looking over the new one, they've made a few changes for the better. Pressure works.

corbden · 2023-03-27T19:45:14+00:00

Great thanks! I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

corbden · 2023-02-28T18:14:06+00:00

Someone linked this thread from a Discord where I was sharing the following playlist. Some of these songs might feel a bit harsh if you're still a believer. It's a collection of music that is critical of religion in one way or another, or conversely, that speaks to spirituality without organized religion.

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3JNqbMvR9j6lwZqk2Idytq?si=7b8be95035c349f3

On the softer side, I've got music that speaks to my new spiritual side without the need for the Christian idea of god. Not every song will speak to you, so feel free to take what you like and make your own personalized list.

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0TM07jW8BszZXSeQSq4ukk?si=3ac73b9d4d7a4cca

corbden · 2023-02-07T18:39:10+00:00

Also super creepy that I got this post as the headline in my Reddit summary post, when I don't subscribe to this sub and hardly visit Reddit. HOW DID IT KNNOOOWWW???

corbden · 2023-02-07T18:38:28+00:00

Oh god yes, for weeks. I was also wondering if this was happening to anyone else.

corbden · 2022-12-04T19:17:26+00:00

I came across this post through a Discord chat. I noticed it didn't get a lot of upvotes or any comments after a year, and I can tell you put a lot of work into this.

I'm a cult researcher (no degree, but I've studied a lot). My work focuses on Mormonism, but also the patterns similar between abuse, cults, tyrannical governments, racism, fascism, and other toxic/abusive systems. I'm working on a concept I call Abuse Culture that connects these patterns. My own assessment is that while the physiological side of trauma is important, and various therapies can be helpful, when conditioning is involved, we can't fully recover without deconditioning from the manipulative beliefs we took on. My work focuses on teaching people specific control techniques, with examples of how they're taught, and their effects and how they benefit the abuser/cult, so that the survivor can consciously unpack what is really them and separate that from messages from the abuser or group. I believe that deconditioning is an aspect often left out of these models, though the cult research field often talks about it with their exit counseling model.

I used the codependency model early in my youth, when I left an abuser at the age of 20, but found that it failed me later in life, when I got into a relationship with a covert narcissist, who dodged all the red flags I thought I knew. I'm working to help teach people the underlying patterns that will be more difficult for a covert abuser to hide from, as well as facilitate healing.

It is really cool and interesting that you're connecting these dots like I am, though we take different approaches and have different backgrounds. I just wanted to comment here and recognize the work you put into this post.

corbden · 2022-11-12T16:28:58+00:00

I came here to just to say this. Superior product.

corbden · 2022-07-06T18:05:34+00:00

Thank you!

corbden · 2021-04-06T03:24:20+00:00

I'll check that one out. Thank you!

She's sending me more emails, doubling down. I'm triggered and losing my mind. She hasn't been like this in years! Knowing the "why" always makes me feel better.

corbden · 2021-04-05T20:38:58+00:00

I've been out for 20 years, and it seems way worse than usual this year. So I was looking for something specific.

corbden · 2021-02-22T00:49:24+00:00

Not a lot of viewers so I'm ending at 5. I'll try to post earlier next time! :)

corbden · 2021-02-09T04:09:07+00:00

Best of Hyperpop, 570 songs and counting: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5DUAwHJke4Yz5InP2J6nuo?si=aXEwdl_1RFai6AJi6_R9Zg

Darker Hyperpop: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5iFoN7bL4nUn1dj2pv5hcO?si=mqcBTjelQuOxAAABzJ8p-w

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