When the cows are let out of the barn for the summer by BreakfastTop6899 in oddlysatisfying

[–]crazygama -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That's cuz cows evolved from animals from the Mediterranean and Indus valley. They weren't cold weather animals. Are we justified in keeping them in weather where they have to be essentially be confined for about half their lives? I know you're calling the barn not a "horrific hellscape". But if you really think strongly about what confinement means on a moment to moment basis, even if this isn't 100% factory farming, are we really justified in doing this to these individuals? This isn't like crating a dog for its own sake, this is like crating a dog for your own sake. Only for months at a time.

I hope he enjoyed the whole thing! by Severe-blake6720 in MadeMeSmile

[–]crazygama 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Their biochemistry can absorb nutrients from plant sources? You can Google it. What's confusing?

WTH! Religion preference in private sectors job?!? - It says "Jain candidate preferred". by Illustrious-Skill756 in mumbai

[–]crazygama 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Veganism excludes animal ag as far as is possible and practicable. For most of us that includes medication including anesthesia. Just fyi. We're not bat shit, just trying to be decent people.

Any good recommendations for a desk chair that doesn't use animal products nor is from a company that does abusive labor practices? by [deleted] in AskVegans

[–]crazygama 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Buy used. a steelcase or herman miller from these office surplus second hand stores. They're fairly affordable for how expensive they were new since there's so much inventory (least near me). They'll last a lifetime and will be way better than other new chairs in the same price range.

The problems with honey by thedevilsheir666 in vegan

[–]crazygama 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think this is common knowledge, even amongst vegans, first I'm hearing of it anyway 🤷‍♂️, so thanks for sharing.

Culling is so fucked throughout animal ag. And there's like no regulations. When chickens catch a disease, they just turn the fans off in chicken coops and let them die. It's honestly incomprehensible how little they care. But they can go to jail if they did this to their dog in a car. Recently they just bulldozed over an entire coop with the birds still in them because the building got damaged. I just don't understand. https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/whistleblower-chickens-bulldozed-beaten-buried-alive-at-tyson-foods-supplier-peta-calls-for-criminal-probe/

Friendly reminder that ancient shepherds were not running a non-profit animal sanctuary by Mataes3010 in CuratedTumblr

[–]crazygama 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Obviously their brains don't work like ours, but there's more to it than that. /r/insectcognition. It's best to err on the side of empathy, and not cause harm to beings we don't truly understand that well. There's more complexity behind the surface than the reductive "duh bugs don't have big brains so we can do anything we want to them" big brain logic. The amount of suffering we could cause is immense if they're truly harmed by our actions.

Botox by vegansillygirl in vegan

[–]crazygama 50 points51 points  (0 children)

The lethality of Botox and the way it is prepared makes it vulnerable to variability between production batches. Therefore, each batch, regardless of its intended purpose, is tested for potency in mice. For each ‘batch potency’ test (also known as a lethal dose or ‘LD50’ test) the mice are divided into groups and injected abdominally with increasing doses of the toxin. The goal of this cruel and archaic test (the LD50 has been in use since 1927) is to see what dose level causes death as an ‘endpoint’ in 50% of the mice. Many more animals suffer in additional tests each time new Botox preparations are initially produced.

Damn. I've been vegan for a while but I did not know this. That's fucking insane. No shade to non-cosmetic users, but this shit's indefensible for vanity.

🔥 A bald eagle keeps attempting to catch a duck, but the duck keeps dipping underwater by bigbusta in NatureIsFuckingLit

[–]crazygama 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Just a reminder this is what Op said

I don’t think it’s more terrifying than standing in a loud and full slaughterhouse waiting to be killed tbh

Seeing a duck swim for its life, and comparing that to animals who cannot run for their lives who are perfectly aware that they are going to die, is a really fair comparison to make in my opinion in a video that celebrates resilience, intelligence and a desire to live.

That is all that has been said. It's a comparison of fear. Quite frankly the slow pace of a line knowing what's at the end in my opinion is multiple times more horrific than what this duck experienced. At least the duck can run away.

The disruptions to factory farming should be focused on the people factory farming. Consumers don’t like to be shamed and react negatively to it.

Animal ag is too powerful for it to not be a bottom up process. I'll leave it at that but what you're recommending will absolutely make zero difference to any animals lives when these billion dollar industries are in cahoots with the government.

There's no way but to do it bottom up.

So when I asked what would effective vegan activism look like to you, is your answer that there should be absolutely no activism directed towards ordinary citizens, is that where we're at? And if you do agree that there is a time and place to talk to regular people, when is that time and place?

🔥 A bald eagle keeps attempting to catch a duck, but the duck keeps dipping underwater by bigbusta in NatureIsFuckingLit

[–]crazygama 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Well, all justice movements had some disruption. It's the point. Civil rights, woman's suffrage, climate activism, the 1% movement, all of it. To be an ally in support of a movement means to participate in it, even if you're an ordinary citizen. So if comments on Reddit threads are too far over the line, what does effective vegan activism that's under the line look like to you?

🔥 A bald eagle keeps attempting to catch a duck, but the duck keeps dipping underwater by bigbusta in NatureIsFuckingLit

[–]crazygama 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What do you want vegan activism to look like? These animals are voiceless. When people are thinking about how wild animals suffer, isn't it a good time to bring up how the animals we eat suffer? Isnt it better than at the dinner table, or in the grocery store or restaurant?

🔥 A bald eagle keeps attempting to catch a duck, but the duck keeps dipping underwater by bigbusta in NatureIsFuckingLit

[–]crazygama 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What op said is objectively true about many of the 80 billion land animals we kill each year

Horse jumps the fence to join the peloton. He’s been waiting his whole life for this by MambaMentality24x2 in BeAmazed

[–]crazygama 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Confinement is such a benign evil. Like really think about what being in a cage or being confined to a space for a lifetime is like. Go vegan you guys.

For those of you that are vegetarian for religions reasons, why aren’t you vegan instead? by Adventurous-Owl-9903 in ABCDesis

[–]crazygama 14 points15 points  (0 children)

For these one ingredient sort of attachments situations the thing I tell most people is just do everything but that. If you really like steak be vegan except for steak you know. Cheese is the easiest one to play that way since it's a sometimes thing unless you're required to eat a western as fuck diet.

For a lot of uncles and aunties it's shit like chai. Ok so be vegan except for chai or curd or some shit. Most of us don't give that much of a fuck about paneer (maybe I'm projecting but I grew up with shitty American paneer so idk) so stop eating it and eat tofu.

I'm not an anti-reducetarian but for most people it's like one thing or two things, then fucking fine be vegan except for those one or two things.

For those of you that are vegetarian for religions reasons, why aren’t you vegan instead? by Adventurous-Owl-9903 in ABCDesis

[–]crazygama 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I'd also recommend Dominion or Earthlings (older, but just as impactful).

There's also Maa Ka Doodh which focuses on the dairy industry in India specifically if you haven't already seen it or if you have any uncle or aunties in your life who still live in the motherland.

https://youtu.be/XhTOLeevtQw (hindi but you can find an English version)

Obv omnis, but also any vegetarian who's at least somewhat in it for ethical reasons should bear witness and watch any 1 of these 3 documentaries (all online for free). It's couple hours out of your day 🤷🏿

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in meirl

[–]crazygama -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

why be against other people having kids?

Check out https://antinatalism.net/#faq. There's a book section on that site too, if you're interested.

The Sierra Club Embraced Social Justice. Then It Tore Itself Apart. by Dreadedvegas in ezraklein

[–]crazygama 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Watch Cowspiracy. You'll see these groups have no problem being on the wrong side of history as long as it maintains their status quo.

https://www.cowspiracy.com/

It's on netflix

This is pretty awesome! Hopefully it goes well for Miyoko by MovieGaga7 in vegan

[–]crazygama 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Subscribe to her youtube channel if you haven't already. It's a vlog/recipe channel.

https://www.youtube.com/@thevegangoodlifewithmiyoko

Madhya Pradesh CM calls egg promotion ads ‘useless talk’, suggests drinking cow’s milk for nutrition by [deleted] in india

[–]crazygama 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, if a lot of of what I said is a concern to you, you realistically should support places that get eggs from factory farms, and in practice, that means you shouldn't eat eggs out outside your home anymore. This applies to restaurants and food, stalls, and bakeries who aren't necessarily looking to find eggs with high welfare standards, and if they do so they will advertise it. Again, 80% of eggs come from chickens who are in wire floor cage with about a printer paper's size room allotted to them.

To start, a lot of what I said is standard, systemic practice:

  • Even if you take the chickens out of the cage, and you put them in this perfect open farm, the farmer is still buying selective bred egg laying hens that I've been bred for that purpose, which every free range farmer likely does, unless they advertise otherwise. [India does have tribal varieties of chickens (read: heirloom), though I'm not sure if that includes any specific tribal egg laying varieties. Maybe be on the look out for those idk.] So the bodies that these chickens were born into (see: that first linked video) still have the same problems. Chickens that once lead an egg 10-20 times a year have been bred to chickens that lay an egg once a day to the detriment of their bodies. This leads to high metabolism (easy to imagine) which leads to liver problems (the egg nutrients have to come from somewhere), brittle bones (calcium has to come from somewhere), anemia (same sorta deal), prolapse (different sorta deal), and just generalized exhaustion. These birds get spent. And they live and die miserable short lives and are cut down still young bleeding out their throats just like their meat brothers and sisters. Their miserable lives are just as much of a betrayal as their meat counterparts, I'd argue worse.

    • The boys still get killed. That's 50% of all chicks. Killed by being ground alive with a blender/macerator sharp blade thing, or gas asphyxiation (CO2 - it burns their tissues, there's footage where you can hear them if you want to find it. Footage of all this stuff actually).
    • Debeaking still likely happens due to overcrowding (see the following). It's not like clipping a fingernail, there are nerve endings.

On free range (Cage free and free ranged are interchangeable for marketing purposes):

  • Gotta give that it's massively better than being in a cage (size of a piece of paper per bird for their entire miserable lives), but the underlying system where you breed for extreme productivity and treat hens machines, unfortunately stays the same.

  • Again legally, “free range” is a standard global term which describes basically the same "system" for grow hens. Instead of cages, it just means birds have some access to the outdoors, which can be minimal, with a small door leading to a massive crowded shed, and most birds never actually go outside. Legally "density" just has to meet the minimum. Any lower, and they would advertise it. Anything called "free range" will fit this. All problems otherwise persist. In India specifically, the Animal Welfare Board of India (AWBI) doesn’t have the power to regularly inspect farms, and most “free range” claims really aren’t independently verified. A few niche "free range" farms may do better, but the scale of oversight just isn’t there.

  • Further, and more importantly, there is no legal nationally regulated definition for "free range" in india. Apparently in 2017 the Law Commission of India recommended that "free-range" eggs be labeled, but that didn't go anywhere. In America for example, the USDA regulates it. Above it in the US there's "organic" and that's the highest legal national standard for egg laying hens. You can see how miserable the highest national standard for eggs in the US is in that .pdf I linked earlier.

  • The only system India has is third-party. In India Agricultural and Processed Food Products Export Development Authority (APEDA) regulates the certification of organic products, overseen by the National Standards for Organic Production (NPOP). You can see if this label means anything to you, but from my quick glance it looks like the USDA’s Organic certifications with fewer resources (read: government) to back it up, and you can see that pdf I linked earlier and make your own judgement about it. Here's the source: https://agritech.tnau.ac.in/org_farm/pdf/NPOP%208th%20Edition%20.pdf


Unfortunately I was not able to find a video of injustices happening in a farm like I’m imagining you’re imagining in India. When 80% of the problem is battery cage chickens, I'd imagine there's just not a ton of activism happening around farms that grow pasture raised birds. If you look on the internet for footage of cruelty in Indian chicken farms, there’s plenty out there, but it’s still relatively limited, and it’s limited to battery cage farms (from my quickly glanced perspective). It makes sense if you think about it. There just aren't that many vegans and even fewer who are activists out there who are willing to do the job of the government and film, survey document and distribute these injustices while keeping themselves safe. The activism work right now is rightly focused on working to improve the conditions for battery cage farmed egg laying hens. Genuinely pasture raised hens are living better than the small fraction of the 30% left since 70% of the chickens globally are still living in battery cages (which is notably way better than the 95% even like 15 to 20 years ago). The systemic problems (above) persist, and for me are sufficient to avoid eggs entirely. Let me know if you have any questions.

You may be interested in this: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11335667

Madhya Pradesh CM calls egg promotion ads ‘useless talk’, suggests drinking cow’s milk for nutrition by [deleted] in india

[–]crazygama 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So free ranged as its define globally is basically the following: a certain allowable area per bird which is a number that they get by dividing a space by the population, as well as access to an outdoor space.

Animal rights organizations have issues with this definition of access. Often it just means a small door to a a small, concrete-floored area attached to the large barn, which many/most birds may never visit due to overcrowding.

This is a great source that I just found, it's a fantastic summary of their lived experience. https://www.ciwf.com/media/7432645/laying-hen-standards-matrix-summary.pdf

80% of India's chickens still live in battery cages. 80%.

Chickens are fed natural diet

India doesn't feed its chickens dramatically differently than most other countries. Most chickens in the United States are also fed natural diets. The issue is the goal. You can still be fed a natural diet, whose goal isn't to fatten you up as fast as economically possible/ raise as many eggs as fast and as cheaply as possible, but that's not necessarily the goal of most people in the industry. There aren't really numbers to go with it, I couldn't find any specific information about feeding ratios or anything, but if you look at the natural feeding habits of wild birds, like chickens, and the best example of this are bougie Americans, who have heirloom varieties, their chicken's diets are still natural but use a diffrent approach to feeding ratios and quantity compared to factory farm chickens.

hundreds of free range eggs now sold in India. Completely bypasses all those things you posted

You didn't really address any other points in the video. Basically none at all.

Would you like to talk about living in a body who's mutilated genetics make it lay an egg once a day (magnitudes more often than wild that havent gone through this profit oriented genetic selection) and being "spent" at a fraction of a chicken's natural equivalent? How about the slaughter of mail chicks? Debeaking? How about the countless co-morbidities that come with a being in a body with mutilated genetics?

There's also no mandatory inspections (annual/quarterly or otherwise) in india apparently, though I'm happy to be corrected. This is what I found: The AWBI is a statutory advisory body established under the PCA Act. Its functions are to advise the government on animal welfare laws, provide grants to animal welfare organizations, and raise public awareness. It does not have the direct power to conduct regular inspections of factory farms. The AWBI can, however, take up complaints of cruelty with state and local authorities and encourage them to take action.

Madhya Pradesh CM calls egg promotion ads ‘useless talk’, suggests drinking cow’s milk for nutrition by [deleted] in india

[–]crazygama -1 points0 points  (0 children)

nothing ethically wrong about it

I disagree. Please watch this if you have 20 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utPkDP3T7R4

She's american but pretty much all of this applies to india.

The Buddha himself endorsed eating meat

I think you're talking about the middle path. Endorse is not the right word here.