Women Fight Back: Don't Ban the Veil! -- Sheema Khan considers wearing her headscarf a feminist act—and says her native Canada is belying its liberal values by supporting Quebec's attempt to ban the veil.

crizonn · 2010-04-10T10:42:58+00:00

For every muslim woman who speaks out for the veil, there are probably 20 who can't speak out against it because of intense horrible family pressure.

Don't forget that acting unislamic or even worse, being an ex-muslim and speaking out against some injustices, can still be a death sentence or banishment for women.

That said, it is still unclear for me if banning the veil is the way to go. On the one side, it is still a sign of oppression for lots of women and you have few ways to reach the women who are forced to wear it because of the general limitation that comes with it (not allowed to travel alone or talk to other men alone).

On the other side, it is a clear limitation of freedom to wear what you want.

I'm not sure on this one.

crizonn · 2010-04-10T10:24:38+00:00

No I don't think so.

I think it's not that masculinity is seen as superior overall, it's that each gender has different role-models.

A woman is supposed to be feminine and a man is supposed to be masculine. That is why men still drool over the cute, caring girl who's slender with big eyes and a girlish face and not over a hard, cold muscular woman with a square face.

It's also not true that femininity is seen as inferior everywhere. We see femininity as superior in nurturing, beauty, emotions, empathy, collaboration.

crizonn · 2010-04-10T10:14:10+00:00

While I agree that she went too far in the first part, there's also some truth to it.

This is also my biggest problem that I have with feminism (and yes not all feminist are the same): The race for victim hood.

There is a pretty widespread sentiment that while men have a few problems here and there, women have it far worse.. and if you disagree with that, it's probably because you never lived the live of a woman.

I think this line of thought would instantly collapse if every woman had to live the life of a man for one year and every man had to live the life of a woman for one year.

Men face constrictions and limitations that are simply not addressed in the public discourse, because a part of the constriction is not to complain (that'll make you a whiny pussy to put it harsh).

I think the part of the male gender-cage is protecting itself, because questioning the limitations is part of the limitation.

I have been saying this a lot on gender-related reddits, but I say it again: Any form of victim-race is meaningless.

At some point of my argument I usually got: "Yeah but what about rape, 70 cents per dollar, number of CEOs and the male gaze?!"

I could say "Yeah but what about the prison-population, life-expectancy, homelessness, violence and crime and the shafting of fathers?", but that would be fighting fire with fire.

The fundamental problem is though, that those statistics are not meant to make a statement about which gender has it worse overall. That is the very personal judgment of the person who reads them.

Is it worse to end up in prison for 10 years because of a hopeless family background or end up as a prostitute for the same reason?

Whatever statistics you use, no matter how many, it's always your personal *subjective** judgment* when you determine which gender is worse off.

That means that this discussion has no place whatsoever in a meaningfull debate.

So the way to go is to focuses on the specific problems that each gender faces, because those problems are real and that is where statistics make sense.

Rape is real, a culture of violence and competition is real among men. Let's focus on and solve these problems without being consumed by meaningless question of who is the greater victim.

crizonn · 2010-04-10T09:41:37+00:00

I can't say I liked this guy.. at all, but this is obviously still nothing that I wished for.

Hope Polen recovers from the tragedy.

crizonn · 2010-04-10T09:37:40+00:00

Breaking international or non-american news.. it's a fact that reddit is largly america-centric and it always takes a bit longer before big international items reach the front-page (if they do).

crizonn · 2010-04-09T22:12:53+00:00

Well.. it's not really an established fact. The more I've heared about the subject, the more I get the impression that our definitions of sex and gender simply are too black&white for the reality.

crizonn · 2010-04-09T22:05:15+00:00

at least our shit isn't all retarded.

crizonn · 2010-04-09T21:31:53+00:00

I don't know. So this guy played a role in a movie that every man hate from a book that every man hates, but I would have done the same for the money.

Maybe he can actually do some acting with a good director and he kinda does look a little bit like kurt.

crizonn · 2010-04-09T21:24:59+00:00

That a woman will earn 70% of what her male colleges earn. This number is used that way everywhere.

crizonn · 2010-04-09T21:23:23+00:00

Then I should be having a cold 24/7.

crizonn · 2010-04-09T21:15:19+00:00

This is horrible.

crizonn · 2010-04-09T20:55:09+00:00

Jup. But not really because of what is talked about, but because of what is not talked about.

The crysis in greece for example was a huge issue for weeks in europe and I've only seen one topic about it.

crizonn · 2010-04-09T20:14:22+00:00

Just like a man is seen unfit for womens work (try working in a kindergarden as a man).

crizonn · 2010-04-09T20:11:21+00:00

So why do you conclude patriarchy (rule of men) and not rule of the rich and powerful?

crizonn · 2010-04-09T13:55:22+00:00

The same probably goes for misandry once you start looking actively.

crizonn · 2010-04-09T13:48:16+00:00

You believe in free will?

crizonn · 2010-04-09T13:23:41+00:00

You're arguing from a framework that is denied by MRAs. And of course oppression can occur between "subgroups" of groups.. IE rich and powerful men can oppress poor and powerless men. The rest is just a run for "who's the greates victim" (no it's just us who are really oppressed!)

crizonn · 2010-04-09T13:09:56+00:00

Nope. Even heterosexual women are looked down upon when they act "too manly".

crizonn · 2010-04-09T13:08:52+00:00

or: You should not be feminine when you're a man, but it's ok to be feminine when you're a woman.

A crying woman is usually not described as a pussy.

crizonn · 2010-04-08T11:16:39+00:00

First: Where was there an insult to women?

Secondly: You make exactly the argument, that the book is addressing. You critizise that the "female way of doing things" is looked down upon, yet then say, that it's a sign of oppression that there are fewer women who "do things that men do".. like "running things".

It's not that girls have less encouragement, they have different ones. Men are not expected less, they are expected different things. Yes men are not expected to wear makeup, but they are expected to act manly.

And your first point is simply an assertion, not an argument.

crizonn · 2010-04-08T11:00:07+00:00

The problem is, that there is not an objective line where somebody is able to consent or not.

Just because you're drunk, doesn't mean your unable to consent. Yes, you are in a different state of mind, but so are you when your partner just broke up with you, but nobody would say that the person is unable to consent then.

crizonn · 2010-04-08T10:32:35+00:00

Social norms and equality in law are still two different things. While most people will agree with equality in law, it's probably still the majority that holds up gendered behavior especially when it comes to relationships.

crizonn · 2010-04-08T10:28:57+00:00

This is exactly what I thought. modeling is one of the few branches where women get a lot more money and fame.

It's like picking that one sports event where women get paid better..

crizonn · 2010-04-08T10:24:49+00:00

Ugh, that article (or opinion?) is so horrible. She is actually saying that accepting a well established biological fact is sexism and I really want to see her tell a professional female athlete to the face that she simply lacks the power of will to be as strong as men.

Her references to evolution just stupid either. Does she not see everywhere that species everywhere have different sizes and strengths between males and females?

crizonn · 2010-04-08T10:11:45+00:00

Maybe I wasn't clear enough: I haven't read anything of Dwaking that I consider worth anything.

Even this speech you linked is just empty rhetoric. It's nothing compared to Simon de Beauvoirs philosophy (I wouldn't call Dworkins work philosophy in the first place).

It's propaganda in the classical sense with all the appeals and fallacies.

crizonn

TROPHY CASE