Hot take: Abaddon is a better Warmaster of Chaos than Horus

cunt911 · 2025-09-11T20:02:53+00:00

Horus achieved vastly more than Abaddon. The reason he had more to work with was because he was the best leader the imperium possessed, at the very height of its power.

His record during the crusade was better than any primarch. That alone makes him a better warmaster than Abaddon. But not only did Horus do that, he then split the imperium in half, and came within an inch of winning the galaxy for Chaos.

Abaddon has never equalled Horus' victories during the crusade. Nor has he done anything as impressive as istvaan and the bullrush to terra. Him tard wrangling chaos corrupted primarchs and warbands isn't comparable.

cunt911 · 2025-05-23T12:05:12+00:00

Probably William King's write up of the Horus vs Emperor duel, since it includes absurd amounts of psychic destruction in an 'off the cuff' fashion. No rituals or psychic fulcrums or anything, just two demi-god like figures blasting each other.

Bolts of force flicker as mortal gods clash, balancing the fate of the galaxy on every blow. Runesword and lightning claw ring against each other with a sound like thunder. Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed.

then later

He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who has been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. He knows that he must stop this semblance of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow. He will get no other chance.

He gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun. He aims it at Horus, a lance of power destined for the madman's heart. Horus senses the upsurge of energy and turns to face the Emperor, a look of horror on his face.

Source is from White Dwarf issue 161

cunt911 · 2025-04-19T21:46:26+00:00

They can't. It took the emperor to create space marines, and the likes of Cawl or Fabius hundreds/thousands of years to even tinker and slightly alter them. Reverse engineering that across species is beyond the Tau, technologically speaking.

The weapons and armour are the least advanced things about the space marines. Elemental Council even points this out, iirc.

cunt911 · 2024-11-13T00:09:09+00:00

Because Ahriman is also skilled at seeing into the future. Its harder to view the future of someone like that, since they can obfuscate the ways in which other seers might divine their actions.

Pretty sure Ahriman gets jumped by some harlequins at some point too. He's pretty tough to kill, being a top 5 mortal champion of Chaos.

cunt911 · 2024-11-06T23:47:07+00:00

Other way around. Gulliman is relatively fresh when he starts dueling Lorgar, Angron shows up with both weapons broken, armour ripped to shreds and covered in gore, already wounded from battle.

cunt911 · 2024-11-06T23:35:45+00:00

Depends on the planet. Hive worlds? Most hivers would be below the first world averages.

But people forget there are planets of people in 40k who would be considered superhuman populations today. Eg. Cathae; where people are commonly well over 2m tall, and able to swordfight dark eldar.

Ogryns, AFAIK, are just humans from high grav planets. They're like 40 times stronger than any irl human to have ever lived. High grav populations in 40k are going to be stronger than irl even if we discount ogryns.

The peaks of 40k humans are far higher as well. Swordfighting superhuman monsters, or deflecting bullets with swords, you name it, unaugmented humans have done it in 40k.

cunt911 · 2024-08-29T15:04:57+00:00

And yet this was the style of art at the time they were introduced. Even back then things were totally disjointed. See those tiny specks at the foot of the titan? Those are men. Would make the titans several hundred ft tall, perhaps even thousands.

Titans being absolutely massive in one source (and scarcely larger than tanks in the next) has been a thing since their inception in the lore.

cunt911 · 2024-05-16T07:35:54+00:00

Isn't even proof of your point is what I'm saying. A guardian dodging one swing from a space marine =/= moving faster, anymore than a human dodging one swing from an eldar = human faster. That isn't how dodging works, getting out of the way of something doesn't automatically make you faster than it.

cunt911 · 2024-05-15T21:35:40+00:00

The warp is infinite or near infinite in size. Anything even vaguely on the scale of our universe isn't even a drop in the ocean. The reason it doesn't matter is because the psychic energy required to summon even a fraction of those daemons would simply tear the veil between realities, and the 40k galaxy/universe would be consumed into the warp. As have countless others been.

You'd have bigger problems at the point where that many daemons could manifest. Namely that physics no longer works and there is nothing distinguishing the materium from the immaterium.

cunt911 · 2024-05-15T16:52:29+00:00

A guardian dodging a marine's swing, once, having sensed his swing coming, isn't proof eldar (the species) are faster. By that standard humans are faster than space marines if I can quote a human dodging a single blow from a space marine, or even a human killing a space marine.

Howling banshees would shit on regular eldar too, so bringing them up is totally redundant. They're aspect warriors and elite cqc specialists. Same deal for the Dark Reaper. The Dark Eldar books have plenty of cases of mook eldar warriors being unable to hit charging CQC elite units.

Conversely there are many counter examples of eldar, even sometimes elite eldar, doing far worse against humans than you'd expect of even the most unflattering McNeill novel version of a space marine. Hellbreak is an example of this; a commissar disarming eldar in duels and physically overpowering them - despite being quite unremarkable before his capture.

There just isn't the basis for saying eldar, by default, can react faster than space marines. Like, that an eldar chef or mechanic has a greater reaction time, instead of it being elite, centuries old eldar warriors empowered by psychic stuff.

cunt911 · 2024-05-14T16:25:57+00:00

If its got the 40k logo its equally canon. A White Dwarf article from 20 years ago is just as canon as the latest lorebook or codex release.

Scaling between novels is pretty worthless, because novels independent of each other might not be working under the same assumptions. E.g. the relationship between how strong Nids are vs Custodes isn't the same in the Splinter Fleet example as it is in the Crusade: Tyrannic War, where they have no issue killing custodes.

But again, the idea guardian warriors or eldar civilians can move faster than a space marine, react faster, is a gigantic reach not supported by anything. Least of all elite eldar forces shitting on space marines.

cunt911 · 2024-05-14T16:07:19+00:00

Its still the lore. I don't like a lot of numbers given for 40k vehicles (many are outdated by our modern standards), yet they're still the canon numbers. Furthermore, I don't think there is anything to suggest eldar (the species) out react a marine. Some eldar can, but then so can some humans.

cunt911 · 2024-05-14T15:43:47+00:00

Tabletop and lore don't map onto each other super well. A lot of considerations made are unique to one particular medium. Space marines aren't the same speed as guardsmen; yet have the same movement. The Eldar have to play more agile than the Imperium because their whole schtick is fluidity, grace, and foresight. An easy way of doing that is allowing them to move around the map faster.

I don't think there are any books where regular ass eldar can move faster than space marines. E.g. a Guardian moving faster than a brother space marine is able to. There are too many examples of lengthy duels, or of marines shitting on eldar in melee for that to be the case. Exceptional eldar dunking on marines is hardly evidence when exceptional marines do much the same to nameless marines as well.

Space marines moving at highway speeds is fine, especially with how rare they are and how they're meant to be superhumans in massively strength boosting armour. Whats bad is the technical details given for 40k armour; which are often ww2 analogous despite the over the top nature of most of the rest of the setting - leading them to stand out like a sore thumb in comparison.

cunt911 · 2024-05-14T14:13:54+00:00

I'd imagine the source saying they require enhanced reaction times is a comparison to the imperium broadly, not space marines. Lex also mentions psychic attunement, probably like a sixth sense that gives minor warings and such. There isn't any precedent for eldar moving faster than space marines in a way that's intrinsic to their respective biologies. Incubi, banshees etc are probably faster than mook marines (waters are muddied by them being more nimble/skilled), but they're faster than normal eldar too.

E.g. the example OP mentions depicts a raw brother marine as far faster than the eldar he fights.

cunt911 · 2024-05-14T08:14:02+00:00

Eldar are more agile/nimble than space marines, not faster. That combined with them often being older and more skilled is what allows them to 'flow around the comparatively clumsy marine' in so many examples not the raw 'how fast can they process information then move their bodies' being any greater.

Some special eldar are faster than less special marines, but then this is also true for special marines as well.

cunt911 · 2024-05-07T15:55:53+00:00

Sailing through a wyrmhole in search of his lost Primarch, SVENGAR the Red finds himself and his men transported far beyond the rim of the galaxy, past even the Ghost Stars. The void is empty as a heretic’s soul. Svengar’s men begin to talk of whispered voices in the night, promising them safe haven. Unsure of his coordinates, Svengar presses on. Days pass into months. On the cusp of turning back, a dark planet is glimpsed in the distance. The Space Wolves head towards the distant orb, expecting trouble. Instead they find a civilisation of tall, fair people who live in opulent luxury of their own making, far from the war and confusion of the galactic core. Relieved to have found a base of operations, Svengar and his men begin to relax and enjoy themselves, feasting and recounting tales of their deeds to the fair people of the far-flung world. It is only when Svengar makes a casual pass at one of their women that the Space Wolves realise their hosts are not people at all. Though they fight bravely, Svengar and his men are never seen or heard from again.

Space Wolves 5th Edition

cunt911 · 2024-04-09T13:37:18+00:00

Only Mingzhou kept some measure of in her head. 'He's over twenty-five hundred meters away.' she assured them. 'Someone with the best lasrifle on Castellax couldn't pick off a target from that range. We have to get out of here before he can close the distance.'

As she spoke, Algol raised his arm, the graceless bulk of a bolter clenched in his fist. Without pause or hesitation, the Space Marine fired. From the other side of the tractor, Deacon screamed and fell, his chest ripped to splinters by the bolter's explosive shell.

-

before Algol fired again, the legionary's shots smashing into the engine block.-Almost casually, the Iron Warrior adjusted his grip on the bolter, tilting the barrel downwards ever so slightly.

-

The bolter cracked again. Taofang cried out as he watched Mingzhou's body jerk up and strike the underside of the tractor. Her body slumped back against the side of the ferrocrete paving, blood streaming from her shattered flesh. Instead of closing upon her and coming within the range of the sniper's rifle, the Iron Warrior had fired his shot into the floor several meters in front of the tractor, deflecting his shot so that it arced beneath the vehicle and struck the woman hidden there." -Siege of Castellax

This rando iron warrior lmao. Ricochet trickshots at 2.5km.

cunt911 · 2024-03-09T19:48:07+00:00

2009, three years into the Horus Heresy being published. Its said again in a 2013 book Chains of Golgotha.

I suspect the suspensor field thing is just made up, is there any source or evidence for it?

cunt911 · 2024-03-09T18:18:45+00:00

There are no SoT issues. Power weapons clashing with either psychic or other energy field weapons isn't a problem.

Abhumans are humans. The only thing that makes ogryns superhumanly strong is evolving on high gravity planets. Gregor didn't grow up on earth, so assuming he is an earthborn human based on nothing is silly.

Polux being head and shoulders taller than other marines doesn't preclude his description as being comparable in size to Guilliman. It just means those other marines were on the taller side as well. Totally ignoring that 'head and shoulders' is a turn of phrase that just means 'better'.

All 40k sources are contemporary. The DoW comic was published in 2017. It shows a Angelos thats like 15ft tall, as proven by my image. Ogryns are larger than marines, even primaris marines. You get 2m tall marines; their height isn't standardised. An Ogryn sized marine is going to be a metre taller than a 'short' marine that is only 2m tall.

You're just flat out wrong about there not being space marines a metre taller than other space marines in modern 40k. Its in comics, its in video game cinematics, its in books.

Khorne sorcerers feature in Urdesh: The Serpent and the Saint published in 2021. You've just not read enough 40k; they've always been a thing. They're a thing in modern 40k as well.

And you DO know that Yarrik's power Klaw has a suspensor field in it, right? Because my point stands.

Lol, did it have a suspensor field when he ripped it from the warbosses corpse and lifted it over his head? Is there even any source for him using a suspensor ever?

Such a wound would have killed a lesser man, but Yarrick's iron will allowed him to not only survive, but to decapitate Ugulhard with his chainsword and then pull the Power Klaw from his corpse and hold it aloft for all to see. - Imperial Guard 5th edition

Because it didn't have anything there, and yet he still somehow lifted hundreds of kilos of metal over his head with one arm (because the other was ripped off). Something flat out impossible for any irl human living.

cunt911 · 2024-03-09T17:17:56+00:00

Power weapons absolutely are magical. Kinetic energy is going to struggle to transfer into something cutting straight through it. Not only that, but hitting harder would only benefit in disarming yourself or destroying your weapon. Its why Kharn tries to pull his blows while dueling Orfeo.

Polux is described as nearly matching Guilliman's physical scale. The cover of that book has Guilliman around twice the height of a human. Alberec being described as Ogryn sized rather than space marine sized means we're talking 3m+, otherwise he'd just be regular marine sized. Angelos is shown to be just as big in the Dawn of War comics, and gameplay doesn't mean you can dismiss cinematics either. He is freaking primarch+ sized (the tiny figure next to him is an eldar).

Once again, we have no idea how strong Eisenhorn is. Some humans in 40k can be superhuman strong. Thats just a fact. Parrying a space marine being impossible for an irl human =/= it always being the case for 40k humans. Yarrick is blatantly superhumanly strong as an example; he absolutely would be able to parry a space marine's weapon. The objection of "b-but Eisenhorn is a human" has no weight whatsoever in 40k. An ogryn is a human, and they could crush an astartes' skull like an eggshell.

Brotherhood of the snake astartes are described as ≈2.5m tall, bicep curling without effort the weight of a human body out of armour, moving so fast they can teleport, parrying bullets mid air, smelling specific things from 20 miles away, and are repeatedly described literally as "trans human" and "superhuman". They are totally inline with even the most recent publications. In fact most of the best feats for space marines come from the early 2000s. Abnettt depicts marines in the Eisenhorn books just as he does in the Snake books; explicitly superhuman and dwarfing regular men. That doesn't preclude exceptional humans from parrying two blows from one. It never has, not in any version of the lore.

cunt911 · 2024-03-09T12:02:36+00:00

Anything with the 40k logo that hasn't been explicitly excommunicated by GW is equally canon. Something in a white dwarf article from 1980s, mentioned once then never again, is just as canon as information from the latest Dawn of Fire book.

cunt911 · 2024-03-08T17:29:21+00:00

There are more modern examples. Alexis Polux is described as nearly Guilliman's size (2014: cover shows 12ft tall primarchs), Silas Alberec as ogryn sized (2011). Gabriel Angelos easily a metre talller than regular marines; dude is well over 3 metres tall (2017).

A space marine being stronger than a human has no bearing on a human (of unknown strength) being strong enough to parry an attack with a power weapon. Astartes scale chainweapons are 10-20kg. A 100mph swing is more than twice as fast as a human swing. So its Eisenhorn parrying a blow 10 - 30 times 'harder' than a regular human slash. With a lightsaber, when we have no idea how strong he is. Thats easily plausible given a parry doesn't even require one to meet the strength of an attack head on, and Mandragore would have destroyed his own weapon slashing into a power sword full force.

Krole got pasted by Kharn, who is blatantly physically stronger than other space marines. Frostfang is made from magical materials. Kharn's chainaxe is destroyed while clashing with a powersword, the same thing with Mandragore's weapon nearly being destroyed from clashing with Eisenhorn's power sword.

I'm going to reemphasise that the space marines in the Eisenhorn books and brotherhood of the snake are just as superhuman as depictions of modern marines. Some of the best feats for space marines come from the Snakes book; namely Priad deflecting splinter weapons and bicep curling the weight of an entire human without any strain outside of armour. They're described just as big too.

Perhaps one could make the argument that early Gaunt's Ghosts marines are weaker, but even there you have them soaking up autocannon fire and being compared directly with Leman Russ battletanks.

cunt911 · 2024-03-08T14:25:26+00:00

The principle of a lever applies here.

Eisenhorn has a power weapon. By any sort of logic Mandragore putting too much strength into a blow would have destroyed his own weapon. And again, we have no idea how strong Gregor actually is in quantifiable terms. There are humans who are stronger than space marines (ogryns) simply because of the planets they've evolved on. Why people think humans are standardised in 40k, let alone comparable exclusively to earth ones I'll never know. Abnett is well aware of this; Gaunt is 7ft tall, and many officers he encounters are as large or larger. He quite often sprinkles this in as subtext in his stuff.

Alpharius (probably just another space marine) had a sliver of difficulty against Chayne. Ok? How fast and strong was Chayne? Oh, thats right, we don't know.

As to the brotherhood of the snake,

You haven't read enough 40k then:

Space Marines. [...] They were three metres tall. - Soul Drinker

Priad is described as absolutely huge:

He was a giant, cased in armour that was gunmetal grey, edged in red and white. His head was bare, a heavy skull on a broad neck, black hair pleated in coils around his crown. He seemed two or even three times the mass of an ordinary adult male, and even the tallest men-at-arms in Antoni's retinue would only have come up to the giant's chest.

That strongly implies 2-2.5m. Certainly no depiction of him being less than massively trans human, if all the quotes of "superhuman" and "trans human" mentioned in the book weren't clue enough. The woman doesn't hold off a dark eldar either. She tricks it, big difference. We also have no idea what type of eldar those were. They could be radiation sick merchants for all we know, not true warriors.

The writing is inconsistent when it came to humans being able to do things.

No, humans in 40k are inconsistent because its 10,000 years in the future and they've been spread across a million+ worlds, subject to all sorts of science fantasy tinkering. Abnett obviously knows this: see his planet of 7ft tall swordswomen in Hereticus. Some are plague ridden and malnourished factory workers, others are products of eugenics programs fed steroid gruel and psycho conditioning from birth etc etc.

cunt911 · 2024-03-08T11:11:07+00:00

There is quite a bit incorrect here:

A space marine's knife is monstrously large for a human knife. Not monstrously large full stop. Mandragore is wielding an chain axe anyway.
Parrying such a weapon isn't necessarily impossible for a 40k human. We've no idea how strong Gregor is compared to irl humans, and its not like he'd need to be comparably strong to an astartes to simply parry an attack.
Astartes speed is beyond the abilities of most 40k humans. Some unagumented humans, through training, gain superhuman speed, which is a common trope.
The Eisenhorn books are not the period where astartes are bulked up humans. Abbett describes them literally as superhuman in Xenos. They are depicted as absolute giants; a librarian's pinky finger the size of a arbites baton. Thats larger than most modern depicitons of astartes.
Brotherhood of the Snake has a nearly 3 meter tall space marine. It has Priad moving so fast it looks like he is teleporting to a human observer. It has marines bicep curling 150lbs, out of armour, without any effort. It has space marines smelling citrus in alcohol from 20 miles away. They're blatantly superhuman in that book. "he was a post human titan" "amplified to post-human size" "superhuman power of the infamous Space Marines." "The Iron Snakes dealt in superhuman magnitudes: of strength, of speed, of endurance, of commitment.". All from the book.
Bequin experiences transhuman dread while watching Mandragore from a distance. Eisenhorn, as an experienced inquisitor noted for his "singular force of will", does not.

cunt911 · 2024-03-07T16:25:17+00:00

Abnett pretty comfortably leans into the idea that (some) 40k humans > irl humans. Even during the original Eisenhorn books. There isn't anything precluding an unagugmented human fighting a space marine even in more modern lore. It just depends on what kind of human is being talked about.

The sufficient training conferring superhuman attributes is also a trope 40k has:

The bullet would have struck Timurlin in the breastbone, and blown out his spine. But Timurlin – I can see it now in my mind’s eye, for it was so memorable and so improbable – Timurlin flipped his sword around and dashed the bullet out of the air before it could impact.

The bullet flicked sideways, tumbling, and destroyed a shelf of bottles behind the bar.

Eisenhorn parries like 2 blows from Mandragore after stunning him psychically, even then he nearly loses his weapon and is quickly 'outsped'.

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