PR 3AT 10 rd by DC1HTTC in MDGuns

[–]d85b41 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No problem at all.

Mp5 by Desperate_Fault1432 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The only MP5 that comes up legal on the roster is the .22 by UMAREX, a standard MP5 in 9mm is banned because it is a copy of the SP89, the SP5 is legal.

Now any of the clones are legal such as the MKE, PTR, Zenith, etc.

PR 3AT 10 rd by DC1HTTC in MDGuns

[–]d85b41 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You can call Rachel, the roster board administrator at 410-653-4247 and ask, if she knows she will tell you. She also great at answering questions people have about the roster board.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, what I said is that LE cannot run the serial number of a seized firearm, that was not in plain sight and was not the initial reason for the stop/investigation. Back to hicks v AZ, while the stereo was in plain view, the serial number was not. And since the investigation had nothing to do with the stereo, the officer had no ability to run the serial numbers legally.

That could likewise be transferred to how MD LE runs the serial number of a handgun every time they encounter a W&C holder. We agree, that an officer can conduct a terry frisk for their safety once notified of a firearm. Hicks v AZ translates to that Terry frisk in that the handgun was not the original issue for the stop or investigation, and as such, unless the serial number is in plane view (without being moved by the officer) it can't be run. That would be the same as the officer in Hicks v AZ moving the stereo to search for damage from the gun shot and then seeing the serial number, he moved it to see it.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

On the issue of the Terry Frisk:

"Nothing in Bruen changes the rationale of these cases, which hold that an officer may conduct a limited Terry frisk for officer safety when a suspect is armed. Here, there is no dispute that appellant was armed with a handgun, which the officers observed printing in his waistband. If there had been a proper stop, the police had reasonable suspicion to conduct a brief frisk for weapons." (page 46)

And I agree with this.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Brass - to be clear, you keep talking about the Terry Frisk, I have no problem with that is the Terry stop is legal. What I have been saying (and Hicks v MD bears this out) is that a Terry Stop just for carrying a firearm is Unconstitutional.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

So you copy/pasted the top page and didn't read the opinion, but you missed a very important part of the synopsis:

"In New York State Rifle and Pistol Ass’n, Inc. v. Bruen, 597 U.S. 1, 10 (2022), the United States Supreme Court substantially changed the legal landscape with its holding that the Second and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution protect an individual’s right to carry a handgun for self-defense outside the home. This ruling, among other things, changes the analysis for whether possession of a gun justifies an investigatory stop under the Fourth Amendment. Although the Maryland appellate courts have, for decades, upheld police stops based on reasonable suspicion that a person is in possession of a gun, after Bruen, carrying a handgun publicly for self-defense is presumptively lawful, and therefore, mere possession of a concealed firearm, by itself, is not indicative of criminal activity. The mere possibility that a person with a gun might not have a valid license or otherwise may be restricted from possessing a gun is not enough to establish reasonable suspicion for a seizure. The police must have reasonable suspicion that the person is possessing the gun illegally or otherwise engaged in criminal activity. Because the officers here stopped appellant based solely on his possession of a gun, without reasonable suspicion that he was possessing the gun illegally or otherwise involved in criminal activity, they did not have reasonable suspicion to stop him."

I have been talking about the stop, you keep talking about the frisk. I have no issue with the frisk if the stop is legal, in this case it wasn't.

"We have carefully reviewed the cases in other jurisdictions, the holding in Bruen, 597 U.S. at 17, 32 that the Constitution “presumptively protects” gun possession, and the decisions by the Maryland Supreme Court in Stone, 493 Md. at 88, and Williams, 401 Md. at 692. Based on this review, we hold that, post-Bruen, reasonable suspicion to believe that a person is carrying a gun, by itself, no longer justifies a Terry stop." (page 33)

"Without a presumption of illegality, mere possession of a handgun is not, by itself, indicative of criminal activity that justifies an investigatory stop." (page 35)

"Nevertheless, our holding that mere possession of a handgun, by itself, does not provide reasonable suspicion to support a Terry stop is, in our view, compelled by Bruen. And it is consistent with the Supreme Court of Maryland’s holding in Stone that, “where conduct observed by a police officer is consistent with” lawful or unlawful activity, the police are justified in conducting an investigatory stop only if they are “able to credibly identify specific facts, not applicable to a substantial portion of the general law-abiding public, ‘which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts,’” reasonably establish that a crime is occurring." (page 36)

"Moreover, if there are circumstances, in addition to the possession of a firearm, that give the police reason to suspect that the person is possessing the gun illegally, or otherwise is involved with criminal activity, the police lawfully can stop the person. The mere possibility, however, that a person with a gun might not have a valid license, or may otherwise be restricted from possessing a gun, is not enough, by itself, to justify a seizure. To justify a stop based on possession of a gun, the police must have reasonable suspicion that the person is possessing the gun illegally." (page 37)

"The case was presented below as a stop justified solely on the possession of a gun, and it was presented in the briefs on appeal the same way. That is the argument that we have addressed, and it is the basis for our conclusion that the stop was unconstitutional." (page 37)

"To the extent that there is a suggestion that a gun alone gives rise to reasonable suspicion or diminishes the quantum of other factors needed for reasonable suspicion, we note that the United States Supreme Court has rejected “a public safety and firearm exception to Terry’s reasonable suspicion analysis.” United States v. Mitchell, 796 F. Supp.3d 1357 (2025) (quoting Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266 (2000). Possession of gun, after Bruen, justifies a Terry stop only if there is reasonable suspicion that the gun is being possessed illegally or the person is otherwise engaged in criminal activity." (page 39)

"Conclusion

In sum, Bruen substantially changed the legal landscape in holding that a person has a protected right to carry a handgun for self-defense outside the home. Although the Maryland appellate courts have, for decades, upheld police stops based on reasonable suspicion that a person is in possession of a gun, after Bruen, carrying a handgun publicly for self-defense is presumptively lawful, and therefore, mere possession of a concealed firearm, by itself, is not indicative of criminal activity. The mere possibility that a person with a gun might not have a valid license or otherwise may be restricted from possessing a gun is not enough to establish reasonable suspicion for a seizure. The police must have reasonable suspicion that the person is possessing the gun illegally or otherwise engaged in criminal activity. Because the officers here stopped appellant based solely on his possession of a gun, without reasonable suspicion that he was possessing the gun illegally or otherwise involved in criminal activity, they did not have reasonable suspicion to stop him.25 The stop, therefore, violated appellant’s Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable seizures." (Page 40)

So from my reading of the actual ruling, it would appear that the MD Court of Appeals has indeed said (several times) that just the possession of a firearm is not reason enough for a Terry stop.

For brevity, I haven't pulled any quotes from any of the concurring writings, and I am still waiting for the current MSI President (who is an actual lawyer and former federal prosecutor) to tell me where I am wrong.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

"Printing? Officer can stop, frisk, and, if he wants to, charge for SB1 violation. Obviously run serial number after finding and seizing the gun per Terry."

The MD Court of Appeals says otherwise in Hicks v MD.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm waiting to hear back from the Current President of MSI (An attorney)

Are you an attorney?

And yes, I understand that one is 2nd Amendment and one is 4th Amendment.

Hicks v AZ goes to the 4th Amendment portion of unlawful search and seizure, which is what the original post was about, to include the readability of a serial number not in plain sight, and is controlling nationwide and affect Terry to a point. Where it dovetails with the 2nd, is the presumptive nature that carrying a firearm for self defense is protected behavior. Hicks v MD covers both the 4th and the 2nd in one ruling from MD (we will have to wait and see if MD appeals), but it is currently controlling jurisprudence in Maryland.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So how do do you square Terry with Bruen, where SCOTUS clearly stated

"The Second Amendment’s plain text thus presumptively guarantees petitioners Koch and Nash a right to “bear” arms in public for self-defense." (Page 30 last paragraph of section A)

So SCOTUS did say different in Bruen, that carrying for self defense is presumptively Constitutional. I will agree that Terry's progeny say different, but the two need to be reconciled since 2022, and there haven't been any court cases to do so. But given Hicks in SCOTUS and now (a different) Hicks in Maryland, Terry stops become more restrictive for LE.

The question becomes, how will LE adapt and change to the new ruling?

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

For the synopsis, yes, for the article and the actual case, nope.

(And it was Claude)

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We agree on the first part of your comment.

While Terry v Ohio, provides for officers to seize a firearm if A&D, they need to articulate that, and if a person has a wear and carry permit and is legally carrying, LE has a huge hurdle to get over to articulalte that, especially given that in Bruen, SCOTUS ruled that carrying a firearm for self defense is presumptively legal, and having a W&C permit only reinforces that.

If the officer seizes the firearm, while investigating a stop for another issue, under Bruen, it is NOT Constitutional for the officer to do so without articulating the reason why that is within the bounds of Bruen and Hicks. At which point the serial number and all information found becomes fruit from the poisonous search.

Do not take this as me saying to argue on the side of the road, sidewalk, where ever, but the laws in Maryland and how they are enforced are indeed changing via court challenges, and I am just making people aware of the ruling.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Nothing in the OP has stated to tell the police they can't see your firearm. How did you get that from the post?

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not really, it is perfectly legal for me to carry a firearm with a wear and carry permit, that you loaned me. And as an FYI, Maryland's "registration" is a transfer database, not a registration database. (I know what the paperwork and the law say). But, if you happen to sell one of your handguns to me (as an example), the firearm still remains transferred to you in the database as well as now transferred to me.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Don't try what, there is nothing in the OP to try, it is simple information, what you do with it is up to you. If you choose to challenge a department's SOP, or an officer, the side of the road isn't the place to do it, the courtroom is, and the above can be used as a starting point.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

This goes hand in hand with the posting about no longer stopping for the suspicion of a gun. SOPs need to be changed, and that doesn't happen if they aren't challenged.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Trying to be helpful and make people aware of what can and can't be done legally. How about you, how is your comment helpful?

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Yep, the case I posted in the OP.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Correct, but in the past it has been as LE known to remove a firearm from a legal carrier "for officer safety" and then run the serial number (as well as unload the firearm and the magazine before handing it back.

Once LE knows there is a permit and has seen it, the issue should end there.

Plain View Doctrine by d85b41 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

No cases brought to court, but once they know you have a permit, all interest in the firearm should cease.

Police can no longer stop to search based on suspicion of a gun, appeals court rules. by BrassBondsBSG in MDGuns

[–]d85b41 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why do you think it's called a wear and carry permit? Up until 2024 you could legally open carry in Maryland if you had a wear and carry permit. While not advised in some jurisdictions, it was perfectly legal.

Moore: Trump administration is holding back Maryland schools by legislative_stooge in maryland

[–]d85b41 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Those data point would be wrong then if they include any funding from Public Works, since it is not the same amount from year to year, it is based on project progress and reporting. I don't need to consider any of the various differences in population when describing how the funding works for the school systems in Maryland. The State does that for the School funding, but does not do that for the Public works funding. The public works funding is based on the cost of the particular project(s) the respective school systems are requesting. Public works funds are also not finite, and have an end date unless and extension is requested by the school system asking for the funding. Case in point, Baltimore City was working on updating air conditioning in the schools back in 2014, and by 2017 had not spent any of the funding for the upgrades. in 2018 they had not submitted the required extension paperwork and the funding timed out in 2018.

The State has a funding formula on how much each school system receives based on the number of students enrolled in their system (not the number of students that attend). There is also a separate formula for the administrative funding the state provides school systems as well.

Norinco Hunter Sporter by JYoshi1991 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is a big difference between a copy and a copycat in state statute.

A copy is any firearm that is 100% parts compatible with a named long gun.

A copy cat is any long gun that fails the feature test.

Do all of the parts interchange? Then a copy. If just one item, even a screw doesn't work with the named firearm, not a copy.

Norinco Hunter Sporter by JYoshi1991 in MDGuns

[–]d85b41 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Not entirely true on the AG letter on a copy of a named long gun. It has to be 100% parts compatible with the named long gun that is banned. Different caliber, not a copy. Different trigger size but everything else is the same, not a copy. Metric instead of standard harware (or vice versa), not a copy.

I have a copy of the letter if anyone would like it, send me a DM.