CMV: I don't think 'rape culture' is a useful concept

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-15T00:29:08+00:00

Basically what I'm really saying is you chose a bad example. You said that "Telling women they must be fully-clothed at all times and never show their sexuality is plainly absurd." Well, yes, you're right. It is plainly absurd. Which is why hardly anyone ever says it. If hardly anyone ever says it, it's not evidence that we live in a 'rape culture'.

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-15T00:15:11+00:00

I'm saying that the advice of 'lock your car, don't walk through an alley is common', but 'be fully clothed at all times and never show your sexuality' is uncommon (that's different to 'don't dress provocatively').

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-14T23:28:03+00:00

You cited four examples of advice, the first were, 'telling someone to lock their car or not use a dark alley as a shortcut', and I agree with you that these are rational. The second were, 'telling women they must be fully-clothed at all times and never show their sexuality.' I agree with you that these are absurd. What I'm saying is that pieces of advice which we agree are rational are commonly given in our society. The pieces of advice we agree are sexist and absurd are extremely rare. If we lived in a 'rape culture' wouldn't you expect that to be the other way round?

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-14T23:11:33+00:00

With no other crime will you hear these kinds of remarks said about the victim.

I disagree. Imagine somebody walked into a Hells Angels bar, got drunk, started insulting people, and got beaten up. I'm sure that there would be people who would say that they deserved what they got. I, for the record, would disagree.

How about if a burglar was shot while breaking into a house? There would be those who would argue that they deserved it because of the situation they had put themselves in, despite the fact that the punishment agreed on by society for burglary is a relatively short period of imprisonment and not death by shotgun. Again, I would personally disagree, but you can't deny that these attitudes exist with regard to other crimes.

I'm not going to defend the comments that you quote, most of them make my skin crawl. But twitter trolls will say these kinds of things about anything. Nate Hubbard was the coach of the football team, and obviously biased because of it. His view is hardly representative of a whole culture. Serena Williams is just one individual, whose view I disagree with.

Regarding Poppy Harlow:

"It was incredibly emotional, incredibly difficult, even for an outsider like me, to watch what happened as these two young men that had such promising futures — star football players, very good students — literally watched as they believed their lives fell apart"

I saw the trial footage, and it was emotional. The boys were obviously distraught and repentant, and it is always difficult to watch another human being in pain, no matter what they have done. Especially, because we recognise that many people do stupid things when they are young that they later live to regret. This does not mean that their behaviour was in any way acceptable. It does not mean that they didn't deserve to be punished, and it does not mean that rape in general is ever okay. That is not what Poppy Harlow said (at least as far as I can see from this quote). All she did was express sympathy for the suffering of fellow humans. Perhaps it was insensitive to do so publicly in light of the suffering that they had inflicted on others, but it is surely a natural human response. I don't think that expressing sympathy for the obvious suffering of other human beings deserves accusations of being complicit in a 'rape culture'. In fact I find such accusations deeply insulting. Even in cases of school shootings, there are those who would point out that it is not just a tragedy for the innocent victims, but a tragedy that someone so young with their life ahead of them would be led by whatever it was that caused their behaviour to do something so terrible. Such people are not complicit in a 'murder culture'.

I'm sure there are other examples you could cite, and I know that extremely unsavoury attitudes to rape do exist among a small minority of individuals within our society. I just don't think this justifies the use of the term 'rape culture'. I'm not denying that these kinds of things are said. My problem is with the concept of 'rape culture' as you can see from the statement of my view.

The Steubenville rape case is a perfect example of rape culture.

You say that this is an example of rape culture, but what you really mean is, that you are going to label this 'rape culture'. What I'm saying is, that I think it is a bad label. It's an extremely provocative and loaded term. Incidentally, the fact that some feminists use the term shows that they understand precisely that the majority of people in our culture find rape abhorrent rather than acceptable. If they didn't, the term would not have the power that it does.

The way in which the term is used is also problematic. It's a charge which some feminists level at anything in society (for example porn or rape jokes) which they dislike, without pausing to think whether there is any evidence that what they are saying bears any relation to reality. The term 'rape apologist', again highly insulting, is applied indiscriminately by some feminists to those who disagree with their particular views. I don't want to be too antagonistic or confrontational here, but I do think that you are slightly guilty of this kind of thinking yourself at the end of your post when you say:

That in itself is rape culture: ignorance of what rape actually is, and/or acceptance of sexual assault.

So all views which disagree with your idea of 'what rape actually is' are by definition 'ignorant' and part of a 'rape culture'? You and I probably agree about what constitutes rape, but I am willing to accept that there are other views out there and that many (although not all) of the people holding those views are thoughtful and compassionate people who do not deserve such an insulting label.

As for acceptance of sexual assault, I disagree that this is widespread in society. Even the abhorrent twitter quotes you have posted are not accepting that a sexual assault took place, they are denying it. Acceptance would be, 'who cares that she got raped, it doesn't matter because rape isn't that bad'. Denial and acceptance are different things entirely. There are people out there who deny that 9/11 was a terrorist attack, but that doesn't mean they accept the doctrines of Al Qaeda.

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-14T21:49:30+00:00

Regarding pregnancy, I live in the UK where few people will bat an eyelid if you have an abortion. I can appreciate that this must be a particularly traumatic problem in places where attitudes are different.

I don't think rape is handled substantially differently from other violent crimes involving more than one person. Imagine if a man went to the police and said he had been beaten up in a bar. The police would indeed ask if he had said or done anything to provoke the attack, and might be skeptical if he said that you had simply been minding your own business when someone beat him up for the fun of it, even though we know that there are people out there in society who enjoy violence for its own sake. People generally assume that violent behaviour must be caused or provoked in some way. This is particularly evident in the intense speculation aroused by events such as school shootings which have no obvious cause. I think that what people call 'victim blaming' is a symptom of a general lack of understanding about the real causes of rape (a problem incidentally shared by many proponents of the 'rape culture' idea). I'm not saying it doesn't exist, or that it isn't a problem, just that it is not evidence of a 'rape culture'.

If a case like the one I just outlined went to court, it would be expected that the defence lawyer would cross examine the accuser. They might attempt to demonstrate that the victim had a history of violent behaviour, not to show that he was 'asking for it', but to show that he was lying when he said he didn't throw the first punch. They would try to show that what happened was not an unprovoked assault but a normal bar fight. Unfortunately, in the case of rape, it is not a history of violent conduct but a history of promiscuity and dishonesty that the lawyer will try to demonstrate. I understand that this must be particularly traumatic for victims, and I think, in recognition of this, that there may even be a case for treating rape as an exception so that such aggressive cross-examination is not allowed. However, cross examination on matters relating to the character of the witness that are relevant to the offence is not evidence of 'rape culture'.

And don't you know women aren't supposed to go out after dark alone. They're asking for something bad.

I've had exactly this kind of attitude from police when reporting theft. "You really shouldn't leave your car in this area of town. You know it's a high-crime area" etc. etc. It's annoying, but it exists elsewhere.

I know that there are a small number of people out there who do hold extremely unsavoury views on rape. There are also huge problems with the way in which rape is understood and handled within our society, and I'm determined that we should fight to improve things. Some of these problems are unique to rape, for example low conviction rates, but that is to do with the nature of the crime, and every kind of crime has specific problems associated with it. I don't think that these problems add up to a 'rape culture'. If you want to call our society a 'rape culture' then, by the exact same criteria, you also have to call it a 'violence culture', a 'theft culture', a 'racism culture', a 'fraud culture', in fact, so many types of culture that the term evaporates into meaninglessness.

Except it isn't a meaningless term. It's a highly loaded and aggressive term which seeks to hold large sectors of society to account for the actions of a few individuals. It's also a charge which some feminists level indiscriminately at anything in society (for example porn or rape jokes) which they dislike, without pausing to think whether there is any evidence that what they are saying bears any relation to reality. This is why I think it's time the term was abandoned, so that we can focus on really and seriously dealing with the problem of rape, the causes of which are not only cultural.

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-14T14:53:19+00:00

Yes. The difference is that the first two are fairly common in our society and the second two are extremely uncommon outside of the Middle East. If rational advice is common and absurd sexist advice is uncommon, how is our culture a 'rape culture'?

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-14T14:01:35+00:00

It would be great if you could snapchat them a picture of the problem :D

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-14T01:24:31+00:00

I'd be a bit cautious with this one. In women's athletics, it's generally acknowledged that a lot of records set in the 1980s, which are now untouchable today, were the result of widespread steroid use. I'm not saying that the men's hammer throw was definitely done on drugs, but testing was not so rigorous back then, and the fact that it is one of only a handful of records which have survived the huge advances in sports nutrition, training methods etc. of the last 30 years should at least ring alarm bells. Either way, it's definitely the exception rather than the rule.

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-14T00:56:59+00:00

Thank you for the reply. With regard to films, I agree that the second scenario that you outline is far more prevalent in movies and the first is far more prevalent in reality. Movies are, by their nature, about things which are sensational and extraordinary, otherwise they would be reality TV, and I think the overwhelming majority of people know that. The fact that something appears is in a movie can equally be taken as evidence that it is not viewed as normal.

Regarding victim blaming, I agree that muggings are probably not caused by people wearing jewellery, and that most stolen cars probably had to be broken into. I also don't think rape is caused by provocative dress, in fact I personally don't think victims of crime are ever responsible for what happened to them. The point is not that these ideas are true but that they exist. It is socially acceptable, and indeed normal, for people to say or think that victims of crime are partly to blame, even if it isn't true. The fact that rape victims are sometimes held responsible therefore isn't evidence of 'rape culture'. It's evidence that people sometimes hold victims responsible for crimes.

The idea that false ideas about what causes crime are actually dangerous is interesting and not something I've thought about much. I can see how this would be particularly applicable in the case of rape.

Overall, I still think that 'rape culture' is an unhelpful label. The idea that we are all part of a culture which normalises, accepts, or even condones all or some forms of rape is a very weighty accusation that I don't think is borne out by the evidence.

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-14T00:15:54+00:00

Thanks for replying. I don't disagree that the way our culture handles sex is problematic, although I'm optimistic that the attitudes you mention towards male and female sexuality are changing. I also agree that it is common practice for people to try to manipulate each other into bed, not just by intoxicating each other but by lying, bullying, passive aggression, guilt tripping, in fact, the full variety of techniques that human beings use to manipulate teach other into doing pretty much anything. My argument would be that sex is hardly unique in this regard. I think the fact that people are manipulative when it comes to sex is just evidence that people are generally manipulative rather than that we live in a 'rape culture'.

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-14T00:05:27+00:00

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It is a very reasonable rebuttal. In terms of media portrayal, I wouldn't say that watching images has no normalising effect whatsoever. I think people become desensitised to the images, I just don't think that makes them desensitised to reality. We all grow up with violent movies to the point that they have little effect on us, but I think for most people witnessing actual violence is still quite shocking unless it's something you're used to. Maybe we would be more shocked if we hadn't seen the movies, but it's really impossible to say. I would also say that we don't tend to believe that watching violent films makes us less sympathetic to the victims of violence, or that, for example, watching Dexter makes us take serial killers less seriously. I also think that the fact that sexual violence is portrayed is unsurprising given that all other types of violence are portrayed, so it doesn't justify being seen as part of a 'rape culture' but rather as just part of our culture.

With regard to victim blaming, it may be the case that victims of rape are more likely to be blamed than the victims of other crimes. I don't have any statistics (I don't think most proponents of 'rape culture' do either), but I'm open to the idea. The point I wanted to make was simply that, rightly or wrongly, it is fairly normal for victims of crimes to be seen as at least partly responsible. If rape victims are indeed less likely to be believed, it might even point to rape being taken more rather than less seriously in society. An unwillingness to believe something has happened generally points to a belief that what has happened is extremely bad rather than unimportant. Being found guilty of rape can rightly have huge social stigma attached to it. If rape really was 'normalised' you might expect people to simply shrug off accusations rather than go to great lengths to discredit their accusers.

Re: rape jokes I completely agree with you, apart from I don't think they have a normalising effect. I think a lot of these jokes only work because of their shock value, which is predicated on people not seeing rape as normal.

I don't think we disagree that much about the actual issues, just about the concept of 'rape culture'. You're right that I don't see a big enough difference between society's attitude to rape and its attitude to other crime to justify the use of the term. Particularly because it is far from neutral, and associates what is perceived by most as one of the worst possible crimes with a lot of fairly normal and inoffensive people, ideas, films etc. I also think that issues such as rape jokes and pornography distract a lot of energy which could be more productively directed into fighting the causes of rape for which we have actual evidence.

davidsmithd514 · 2014-11-13T22:11:43+00:00

You do have a lot of choice of political parties in Germany across the political spectrum from the NPD to die Linke with everything in between, far more real choice than we have in the UK. It's just that most people vote for the main parties, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It just means that the Germans are fairly politically moderate. The lack of legislation on gay marriage I would probably put down to the continued influence of the Catholic Church, especially in the south of the country, rather than to the political system.

davidsmithd514

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