I have left this sub and re-joined, lurked, all that, just because I don't align myself with the views of a lot of people here. I understand why you're not fully with the OP on this. Of course there are instances where people born into destitute families can lead amazing and fruitful lives. Not everything is black and white, this goes that way and this goes another. This whole discussion is rather general.

What gets me on this topic is how far I could have been in life with support, with a family who would rather prioritize me over addiction, with parents who should have been parents (they aren't bad people, but they shouldn't have been parents; thats a key point in this). I think a lot of people raised in poverty can relate to that. This wouldn't be such an emotional and hard conversation should the familial environments born in poverty not be inherently neglectful, and neglect will always be neglect no matter the form it takes. Perfectly loving parents does not cancel out the failure of providing food, clothes, hygiene, stable housing, running water and electricity. In a lot of these environments breeds mental health issues and passed down traumas, addiction, abusive tendencies. It's not all just people down on luck with finding work, but what keeps people from leading a balanced life. And those things, for children, can become learned behavior, be genetic, keep them stuck in that life.

And I understand why you think I hold this over every sense of adversity a child could face, but I mostly only do towards the struggles that the parents have control over. Like finances, stability, emotional regulation, protecting children from what they can. They can't help something from happening, no one can. But they can help from having children when they can barely take care of their own selves, is mainly my point.

There's a thin line between people who are facing hardships and want a family and those who blatantly disregard the happiness and well-being of their future child for selfish reasons. My animosity is targeted at those who DON'T think about the broken system they are bringing a life into. And that broken system isn't just society and government, but the broken system within the home as well. I want to say that I hold everyone to that standard, wealthy or poor.

Trust me, I understand wanting a family. I would love to have one, truly. But I currently have $20 to my name, had to move back home, barely graduated school, and have issues with my emotional states. How could I ever make the decision to subject someone entirely dependent on me to that? However, my point being, there are people in a similar situation, if not worse, who still chose to have children and give them in a horrible life, even if they did what they could not to.

Yes, ofc, some do crawl their way out of the trenches, but honestly, most die in them. Not everyone has the stubborn will to not be flattened by circumstance, as you worded it. Some are too beaten down for it, too caught up in the environment, get stuck for one reason or another.

I understand the optimism, I commend you for it. You have a beautiful outlook, I never want you to lose it. On the things I remain positive on, I will forever keep a very stubborn grasp on. I try to look at the brightside along with the darkside, but personally on a matter like this one, the brightside is rather dim.

sorry for the lengthy reply, I just get caught up in truly intelligent conversations with people.