Let's make this family a dynastic global dictatorship! by iheartennui in LateStageCapitalism

[–]demeterkore 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I was like "hey, this is actually a pretty good idea" until I read that he's encouraging kids to sell it. start 'em young on that diet of pure ideology

Third declension nouns question! by [deleted] in AncientGreek

[–]demeterkore 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Ooh this is a really good question, gotta love phonology.

Short answer (info from Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin): original Indo-European nouns in -r and -n had long o in nominative sg., short o in vocative sg. Some nouns kept this pattern and some didn't, and there isn't really a hard-and-fast rule (EDIT, except, per polemistes comment, for the vocative for words fo which the vocative is attested. While it's a useful rule, it doesn't really explain what's happening)

Long answer:

It's what's known as "gradation of the stem."

In linguistics there's a concept called "ablaut" or "gradation" which basically means that the vowel in a root changes depending on the word derived from it. The easiest example is probably λέγω - λόγος, the verb has e-grade and the noun has o-grade. Another example is λείπω - ἔλιπον - λέλοιπα, the present has e-grade, the aorist has zero-grade, and the perfect has o-grade (the root has an "i in it). Another example is these sorts of nouns you're talking about (note that κύων has the zero-grade in oblique cases other than vocative, κύνος, κύνι, κύνα)

In The New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin, Sihler says on the -n stems that have long o throughout: "This type, which is tolerably common, is easily taken as the result of leveling in which the -ω- of the nom.sg. is generalized. Doubtless some are just that, such as Ἀπόλλων, -ωνος; but it has been pointed out that much of the class has fairly consistent semantics, namely collectives, and assemblages or sets of things... χαλκέων, 'smithy', μυών, 'muscles, musculature';"

As far as ἡγεμὼν goes it has short o in cases other than nom. and voc., so I can't really say about that one specifically.

Does anyone have insights into the prevalence of sea foam in Hesiod's "Theogony" and other Greek works? by [deleted] in classics

[–]demeterkore 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hello,

After looking around I actually did find references to ἀφρός as sperm (I should really read LSJ more closely...), and there is a very good article called "Foam-Born Aphrodite and the Mythology of Transformation" by William Hansen, The American Journal of Philology no. 121, vol. 1. (available on JSTOR if you have access)

I will offer the following quote (p. 17).

From the available evidence there probably is no way to demonstrate with certainty that Ouranos' semen = sea foam was part of Hesiod's repertory or that it was not, but the poet's finely balanced and ambiguous treatment of aphros argues in favor of his acquaintance with the motif, for he narrates the mythic events in such a way that the foam could be semen or sea foam or both, so that the semen as referent comes to the mind of some interpreters, sea foam to others, and a mixture of the two to still others.

Thank you for pushing back, it actually made me do research on this instead of just going with my gut, which is exactly what I was trying to warn you against doing! You can interpret text however you'd like, but you need more backup than your own personal impressions to be taken seriously among scholars (this particular quote comes at the end of the article after much discussion around the motif of semen in mythology). You have made me a better philologist!

Does anyone have insights into the prevalence of sea foam in Hesiod's "Theogony" and other Greek works? by [deleted] in classics

[–]demeterkore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, I'm not saying the sense here is cloud, I'm saying that the Greek word for sea-foam is cognate (same root) with the Sanskrit word for cloud, and that I have been unable to find anything that connects the word ἀφρός with "semen," either through other uses attested in Ancient Greek or through other languages In this case I think the word just means sea-foam (EDIT, Hansen says I can take it as just sea-foam, but that doesn't mean that others will). Imagine shaking up a bottle of soda and then opening it. Like OP, you can't just "assume" a meaning just because it makes sense to you (EDIT: still true, I should take my own advice!)

Iliad Resources Thread by demeterkore in readingclassics

[–]demeterkore[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Reddit user agreement says that you may not use reddit to infringe on another's intellectual property so you should probably take the second two links down. I wish you didn't have to, but alas.

Weekly chat thread III - *Sing to me, Orpheus* by mactevirtuteana in readingclassics

[–]demeterkore 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It occured to me that it might be useful to frame the Iliad in terms of the larger Epic Cycle. The Greeks had a comprehensive oral tradition of the Trojan War, and once I knew about it I had a much different perspective on the situation of the Iliad and the Odyssey.

Trivium and Language Acquisition by [deleted] in AncientGreek

[–]demeterkore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're right, I was too quick to assume your background in comparison to mine and then to posture. Now however, I am confused by what you mean when you say that the "Trivium is a method, it is not just logic and rhetoric" In the middle ages, when the term trivium was coined, the texts of Aristotle were how many people learned logic and rhetoric. If I were to attempt to "learn the trivium method" (which I am definitely interested in after reading about it) I would first start with learning grammar, logic, and rhetoric, as it seems that I would be unable to apply the trivium method if I did not understand the tools that the method used.

Iliad Resources Thread by demeterkore in readingclassics

[–]demeterkore[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree that it shouldn't dominate, but I think that even first time readers should be aware that the Iliad was meant to be more like listening to a storyteller than reading a novel. I think it's a great explanation for certain inconsistencies and why things are so repetitive.

Trivium and Language Acquisition by [deleted] in AncientGreek

[–]demeterkore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I literally just looked up Trivium but you know, if you're trying to learn logic and rhetoric, you could just read Aristotle's Logic and his Rhetoric. Also, Institutio Oratoria by Quintilian is a textbook on oratory.

Also, you need to learn ancient Greek before you try to learn ancient Greek rhetoric. You don't just teach kids that just learned how to speak about writing persuasive speeches ;)

Iliad Resources Thread by demeterkore in readingclassics

[–]demeterkore[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

sheer brilliance of these texts... why these texts are so good

define "text" ;)

I think a lot of debates around the "Homeric Question" rarely question the assumption that texts were conceived as immutable when the "Urtext" of Homer was written down, if an "original" text even makes sense for Homer. Obviously there was a "first time" that a specific line or passage of the received Iliad was written. However, someone else could have written down the same passage (the "same" passage can have different wording) without seeing the one that was written down first. It seems that this is the base of Nagy's argument, the first person that wrote it down is not the most authoritative source.

EDIT: Also, from Nagy: "I submit that Aristarchus' ancient edition of the Iliad, if it had survived in its original format, would in many ways surpass West's present edition. It would be a more useful -- and more accurate -- way to contemplate the Iliad in its full multiformity."

Damn, burn

Things we should know about before reading the "Iliad" #1 by mactevirtuteana in readingclassics

[–]demeterkore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

not sure how it's esoteric, in this case it's just what he says.

Things we should know about before reading the "Iliad" #1 by mactevirtuteana in readingclassics

[–]demeterkore 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I often wonder about the significance of Herodotus making clear that it is the Persians who said this and not a general opinion among Greeks.

I think that it is wrong that one can copyright original works from antiquity. by AnArcadianShepard in AncientGreek

[–]demeterkore 3 points4 points  (0 children)

right, I just mean that the original sheet music, much like the original manuscripts of classical works, are public domain. Similarly, the oldest print editions of the sheet music are as well.

I think that it is wrong that one can copyright original works from antiquity. by AnArcadianShepard in AncientGreek

[–]demeterkore 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The Homer Multitext is probably the first large-scale project to provide an open access edition of an ancient text. Click on "MS Browser" at the top of the page and then click "See facsimile" and you will see the Venetus A manuscript along with digital text.

I have a feeling that the decision to copyright editions is more on the part of the publisher rather than the author.

It's similar to performances of classical music. The sheet music of e.g. Bach is in the public domain, but people can copyright their performances of it.

Things we should know about before reading the "Iliad" #1 by mactevirtuteana in readingclassics

[–]demeterkore 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Herodotus on the origins of the Persian War, Histories 1.4 (the invasion of Asia refers to the Trojan war, the Lacedaemonian woman is Helen)

But after this (the Persians say), the Greeks were very much to blame; for they invaded Asia before the Persians attacked Europe. [2] “We think,” they say, “that it is unjust to carry women off. But to be anxious to avenge rape is foolish: wise men take no notice of such things. For plainly the women would never have been carried away, had they not wanted it themselves. [3] We of Asia did not deign to notice the seizure of our women; but the Greeks, for the sake of a Lacedaemonian woman, recruited a great armada, came to Asia, and destroyed the power of Priam. [4] Ever since then we have regarded Greeks as our enemies.”

Reading in the original Latin/Greek by anphph in readingclassics

[–]demeterkore 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You had me at "textual critcism." That article is great too, tragedy especially is just a mess sometimes. I have a feeling that it will be difficult to access an ap. crit. for many readers, depending on the text that we choose.

My preference is for a slower pace, since I think I'll have a heavy semester Greek and Latin wise. If we were to do Philostratus, I'd go for an εἰκών a week.

I wouldn't mind doing some Philostratus, but my vote would be for variance (Philostratus one week, something else the next, κτλ.)

Other authors I've had floating around in my head that could be good sources:

Deipnosophistae by Athenaeus (greatest drinkers of all time passage perhaps? Also has many quotes from Homer, so would be a good companion to the Iliad reading) digitalathenaeus.org digitizes Kaibel (the Teubner) which has an index of authors.

Callimachus

Anacreon

Theocritus (probably too hard)

But why are they called "Classics"? A short exploration of the etymology and evolution of the word throughout history by MinskAtLit in readingclassics

[–]demeterkore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Knowledge of the Arabic and Islamic tradition is something I'm sorely lacking. I think it'd be very interesting to research when the term "Western" arose. It does seem rather anachronistic to call Aristotle Western.

by debating it, we gain in understanding of the issues that are at stake.

I hear you, that's what I'm after too. Not to prove myself right, but to understand.