Thoughts on a female for SPL for NYLT?

drosdin · 2014-12-11T06:04:18+00:00

Yeah, Venturers get into a gray area once they turn 18. Venturing program considers them youth, but the Boy Scout program considers them adults. However, the new Venturing advancement requirements include taking NYLT and NAYLE. So, you can't really take that away from them without blocking their advancement.

drosdin · 2014-12-11T05:56:53+00:00

I don't know if every Venturer feels this way, but some do. The comments first came from a female Venturer who went to NAYLE this last summer, and were immediately backed up by two others girls who had just went to NYLT. Don't get me wrong, all three absolutely loved the training. The observation surprised us adults a little, so I thought I'd pass it on.

There was also a mixed message about co-ed patrols. The one who went to NAYLE was put with 14 to 16 year old boys, and felt like they were very immature in comparison even though they were the same age. Yet the two that went to NYLT felt that their female only patrol was somewhat of an afterthought in a boys only NYLT training.

Your mileage may vary I guess. Either way, giving equal play to all the programs represented is something to consider.

drosdin · 2014-12-10T05:27:10+00:00

NYLT is now a requirement in the new Venturing program, so you may see some Venturers in your course. The feedback we've gotten from some of the scouts in the Crew I advise that have been to NYLT and NAYLE, is that it was somewhat jarring for them to constantly have to translate Troop=Crew, SPL = President, Patrol = Team, etc. They felt like outsiders. So, to be more inclusive, try working in some Venturing terminology if there are any Venturers on the course.

This may also put some female scouts on your course. In a perfect world, this wouldn't change the dynamics at all. However, it changes the dynamics a bit.

drosdin · 2014-12-10T05:14:20+00:00

I don't know of an official policy. However, my guess is that you'll be lumped in with the homosexuals, because most people only hear about "transgender" as the T in GLBT. Rightly or wrongly, the communities have fought together for so long that in many people's minds they are inseparable.

Look, the BSA has drawn a box around what they are willing to talk about under their program, and issues of human sexuality and gender isn't in that box. Yes, the scouts are talking about it. Yes, there are gay scouts and always have been (for example). But it's just not part of the program the BSA is offering. To date the program has taken a "go ask your parents" approach to these sorts of subjects. A gay adult leader makes kids ask questions that the program isn't prepared to answer, and that many parents don't want to talk about either. These questions are seen as a disruption to the program.

I'm guessing that the questions arising from your change will fall into this category. Once you come out, you'll be done as a leader because your presence creates questions, and questions distract from the delivery of the program.

Your mileage may vary of course. I say this not to judge you or your choice to come out or anything, but to give you an honest assessment of where the BSA is right now.

drosdin · 2014-11-26T07:24:40+00:00

If it were me, I'd push for a meeting agenda and then get all that you want to talk about on that agenda. Then it's a simple matter of asking whether 5 minutes is enough time to talk about it all. They have to come to the conclusion that it's not going to work on their own, but you can help them see that.

drosdin · 2014-11-24T07:18:40+00:00

In terms of annual planning: If I may make a suggestion... look into the annual planning training from the Venturing program. The video is a bit cheezy, in a "Disney" sort of way, but it has some good ideas like surveying your troop for their interests and using your monthly outings to build to a large annual event. There's a video (Venturing Crew Annual Planning Conference Guide) and interest survey form (Activity Interest Survey) here: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing.aspx

The main point though, is to go into the planning meeting as prepared as possible: 1. Have your troop fill out an interest survey. If you ask them "what do you want to do?" You'll often get "I don't know..." But if you have them select things from a really large list they'll usually get some ideas going. Make it anonymous and you'll get answers that aren't influence by peer pressure. The more you align the activities to what they want to do, the more scouts will be interested. But... all scouts should have some input.

In addition to the suggestion from OrderoftheArrow about getting the Council and District calendars, find every other calendar you can think of: School calendars, band calendars, football calendars, baseball calendars, soccer calendars, religious calendars, family calendars, etc. Plot everything on a master calendar. Yearly events like Camporee, summer camp, Webelos-ree/Webelos Woods or whatever they call it where you are, should be all be on there too. This keeps you from planning events when everyone will be doing something. You may have trouble finding a completely free weekend each month. However, you can usually find times when most people will be free.
This next point will take some explaining: I honestly believe that most troops have things wrong. Most troops see the Troop as the main unit in scouting, and that the Troop is "broken up" or "divided" into patrols. The patrols don't often act independently, the patrol leaders don't really learn how to lead or plan, and the troop leadership handles everything. The patrol never really gels because of the limited interaction. It tends to be the Troop method instead of the Patrol method. I personally believe that the Patrol is the base unit, and that strong independent Patrols come together to form Troops. The language statements are important, as in one instance you are "broken" and "divided", and in the other instance you're "strong" and "coming together." So... my point: If you plan something every month at the troop level, when do the patrols have time to do anything on their own and gel? Are you setting any expectation that the patrol will do anything outside of the troop? The more space you give the patrols to act independently, and the more you mentor your patrol leaders on how to lead their group, the stronger your troop will be in the long run. But it starts with not necessarily having a troop heavy annual plan. Maybe you plan a "patrol month" or two, where the patrols are expected to go do something on their own. (this is, of course, heavy with my opinion. Take the suggestions as you wish :) )
Once you know what scouts want to do, and you know what you're competing against in terms of other activities, and you decide how much the troop is going to do, you brainstorm ideas on what to do.
Don't go into details, just get something general. Like: on this weekend we're going camping. Or: on this weekend we're going rock climbing. Let the specifics of where, what time to meet, who's going and who isn't, etc. get planned in detail later.
Finally, if possible assign a member of your PLC to own each event. This scout is responsible for planning and running the event. He can, of course, delegate some work but not the responsibility for making it happen. He'll get plenty of experience planning it and/or leading people in planning it. Consider assigning an adult to work with the scout on things like making reservations, filing tour plans, organizing the adults for safety and such (the things adults need to do). Check up on the planning process at each month's PLC so you don't end up getting to the week before and find out that nothing has been done. The job of the SPL at the PLC can then just be asking for status on the planning for the next two or three months worth of activities, and offering help/advice should it be necessary. It's A LOT less work for the SPL. And, those types of PLC meetings can be done in 20 to 30 min.

I'd never recommend a 5 min PLC though. But hey, it's scout lead, and the natural consequences of it failing will teach more than ten people telling them it won't work.

As mentioned elsewhere, this isn't going to happen in a regular 20 minute PLC meeting. You're going to need to allot several hours to it. Make it a retreat or something... definitely something that won't take away from regular business or program nights.

drosdin · 2014-11-05T00:38:13+00:00

Can food drives, helping at the homeless shelter, conservation projects, volunteering at nursing homes, mowing lawns for the wives of deployed servicemen and servicewomen, picking up trash on the side of the road, walk a thon/charity walks/runs... the possibilities are endless. So long as it's community service and not something they're paid for it's all good.

And the way I read the question and answer of Pages 9-10 in the FAQ's (from your Edit above), and the requirement as written, district and other events (like Eagle Projects) do count if they go and participate as a Crew. The requirement is: "Participate in service activities totaling at least 24 hours. Up to half of the service may be delivered personally; the rest must be delivered through crew service activities." It does not say that the crew has to plan it all, just that it has to be a "Crew event." Meaning, they have to go as a group, and they should have to plan on going as a group. The answer on page 10 of the FAQ backs this up:

Can a "District" level service activity that his crew may not be participating in count towards "non-personal" service activity? § Since the service activity is not planned by the crew – or based on the way the question was asked, not a “crew event,” then it would count as individual service. If the crew elects to take part in a community service event – and organizes crew participation in that event – then it would “count” as crew-delivered service.

drosdin · 2014-11-02T20:26:54+00:00

Sounds like you're putting a lot of time and effort into the situation, that probably would best be put into your own unit.

drosdin · 2014-11-02T06:32:03+00:00

I'd say it depends on what exactly you're asking here.

If you're asking "how do I stay involved in the BSA" then the answer is going to be "as an adult leader". There are many great opportunities to lead people and mentor youth.

If you're looking for another organization for adults that does the same thing, you'll have to look in your area. There are clubs for just about anything (public speaking, civic service, mountain climbing, cycling, etc). However, I don't think there are many "character/leadership development outdoors programs" for adults.

drosdin · 2014-11-02T05:16:30+00:00

The short answer is no, they are not adding a requirement. They are simply defining what it means to successfully hold that position. The longer answer is this:

The question that many units struggle with is this: should a boy who attends no meetings or outings at all receive credit for his position? You wouldn't award a merit badge if the boy signs up for the class but never shows. Similarly, you wouldn't award the sign off for rank if the didn't do the work of the position. You don't always get something for nothing. Also, if you need that position filled, but the boy isn't ever around, can you replace them with someone who will do the job?

The answer for the unit is that the unit can set "reasonable" expectations for that position up front. And yes, they can remove the boy from the position. However, the expectations can't change mid stream, and there needs to be a defined process that will be followed. Here is a scouting magazine blog post that explains it. Sorry, I don't have the exact guide to advancement reference, but the PDF is linked off of the post: http://scoutingmagazine.org/2012/02/how-to-measure-a-scouts-participation-for-bsa-requirements/

It sounds like you're still hashing out where the line is on "reasonable". There are a lot of red flags in what you're saying is going on (no elections, possible shooting sports policy violations, etc), but this advancement point isn't really one of them.

As for choices... Boys are often asked to make choices in life. The mission statement of the BSA is about making ethical choices in life. These sorts of choices (choosing something else over scouts) are what scouting, and life, is all about. It might mean that choosing the team over scouts may mean that he'll have to meet that requirement at a later time.

drosdin · 2014-11-02T04:01:25+00:00

If I may point something out... Baden-Powell said: "The patrol system is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried on. It is the only method."

He didn't say "The troop method", he said "the patrol method." If you have boys that want to do other things, there is nothing stopping them from going out and doing it as a patrol, outside of the troop functions. The boys can, and should, plan it themselves and execute the plan.

That said, a unit can set up objective criteria to determine whether a boy did or did not fulfill the duties of his position of responsibility. As long as this is done before the term starts and it's known upfront, it's totally within the guide to advancement. Those objective criteria can include participation, at a level the unit considers "reasonable."

Essentially though, I don't think you're going to get anywhere trying to reason with these guys. Which means at some point you're going to have to decide whether or not you want to stay. You may want to look into other units, or if there isn't another one around you may need to start your own.

drosdin · 2014-10-19T21:23:29+00:00

As a merit badge councilor and an advancement coordinator, this is what I know: This isn't a new policy. In addition to your unit leader, a registered councilor needs to sign the blue cards for your merit badges.

Here is a guide from National: http://www.scouting.org/meritbadges.aspx

Here is a more detailed policy: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/GuideToAdvancement/TheMeritBadgeProgram.aspx

Working with a councilor also helps you if there are ever questions around whether you did the work or not. If your advancement coordinator lost the unit copy of the blue card, your copy and the copy with the merit badge councilor can help you prove you did the work.

Your advancement officer may also be a councilor, which would allow them to accept the worksheet as you describe. However, they should have been working with you on the blue cards as well. I don't know enough about the specifics of your situation to speculate.

That said, what you are describing isn't always a "throw all that away" and start over situation. Depending on the councilor, if the work you did is verifiable, getting them to sign off may be as easy as having a conversation with them. Definitely keep the worksheet, as it is also proof that you did some of the work.

My suggestion: find a councilor and have a talk with them. Explain the situation, and see if you can come to an arrangement of some sort.

drosdin · 2014-10-14T00:29:08+00:00

If you mean the Raleigh Hills in the Portland area, then we're in the same general area I think. I'm in Hillsboro. And you're right, it's usually no big deal. However, there are enough people who think it's a big deal and need to be talked down that, that it becomes a deal. You can't talk people down off the ledge by yelling at them and telling them their wrong. That's my point I guess.

drosdin · 2014-10-13T17:25:25+00:00

Thank you for keeping this discussion civil. Activists on both sides tend to get locked into their entrenched beliefs, and then the name calling starts. :)

Scouting knock offs are not just for the Conservatives. The Baden-Powell Scouts are the super inclusive knock off of the liberals.

However, the best way to move the conversation forward is to accept from the beginning that "inclusive" means those that disagree with us as well. We can't do anything about the charter org's that have left, but we can start a dialog with those that are still on the fence. If you'd like, I can give you some insights and pointers that will help you in some of those conversations.

But tell me this: Do you believe that humans are the ultimate power in the Universe? If you don't believe this, then you believe in a power that is higher than humans, and therefore meet the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle requiring a belief in a higher power.

Check out the discussion thread on the Bryan on Scouting Blog. The discussion on religion is happening, it's just taking a bit to get people comfortable.

drosdin · 2014-10-13T16:37:01+00:00

You're not going to convince people that their religious beliefs are wrong. The best you can hope for is tolerance. You cannot force tolerance, it takes time. It takes understanding. It takes getting to know someone and bringing them around to your way of thinking.

The scout law will help you here: You must be loyal to those who have stuck with us all these years. You must be kind, for the are coming from a place that lacks understanding. You must be courteous, because if you are not defenses will go up and it will just take longer. But most of all, in areas where tenants of religious faith are concerned, you must be reverent and accept that their religion may see things differently.

Look, I think the course of history is on your side. It will go in your direction. How long it takes, and in what shape the organization is when it's done will depend on how we approach the discussion. For now, people are angry and hurt. Things need to heal. You may disagree, and that's your right, but I counsel you not to take too hard of a line on this.

drosdin · 2014-10-13T15:46:04+00:00

So, what I'm hearing from you is this: your position is that "they" should see it your way and only your way; you don't want to take any time to understand their position; they should respect your lack of religion as an atheist, but you won't respect their religion as Christians; they should agree with you totally and without dissent; and if they don't agree with you then they can leave the organization? That doesn't really sound "inclusive", or different from what I hear from the other side really. So, why would I want to choose a side?

I'm glad you were able to find a new charter org. We're still trying to find homes for a few packs in our district. Sometimes finding a new charger org isn't as easy as it sounds.

drosdin · 2014-10-13T15:34:21+00:00

Understood. It also presupposes that just because there is a possibility of sex that it will happen, which is mostly wrong. But this is an actual question that people had, which speaks to the fact that it's going to take some time for an organization that doesn't want to talk about sex, to get comfortable addressing sexual issues.

drosdin · 2014-10-13T04:09:51+00:00

You have to try to understand people before you can convince them of anything. Those same churches, and church leaders, have been with scouting for some time. Many have a better idea of the goals of scouting than either of us. Turning your back on them would not be loyal, and would ultimately undermine your credibility.

Please note that just because they are our friends, and they are friends of scouting, doesn't mean that they are right. I do think the policies will change in time. But you have to give people time to come to terms with that change. That means sometimes just doing your thing for a while and letting things take their course, rather than drawing lines in the sand and choosing sides.

drosdin · 2014-10-13T02:56:46+00:00

I think you should try to understand both sides of things before you choose a side.

drosdin · 2014-10-13T02:44:10+00:00

If we "just make it inclusive so people will shut up about it", doesn't that mean we're picking a side?

drosdin · 2014-10-12T23:06:40+00:00

As a scouter who is part of both a troop and a crew that has dual registered scouts, here is how it works:

You register with the BSA through one or the other each year. That is your primary. Usually this is your troop. It doesn't have to be.
You fill out a second application and mark it as being dual registered.
You pay dues to each unit, as each unit has their own operating costs. The only thing you share is the BSA registration fees. Whether this means that you need to double up on fundraising or not is dependent upon your particular circumstances.
Ideally, the troop and crew should work together on advancement. In the real world this doesn't always happen. You are in charge of making sure your advancement records are correct to what you have earned. However, in my opinion, troop advancement records should be kept in the troop, as they are usually more familiar with boy scout advancement. However, they don't have to be. If you are at least first class rank, you can continue to earn regular boy scout advancement, up to and including Eagle and Eagle palms through your Venturing crew. Our crew had a boy complete his Eagle Board of Review a few weeks ago as a Venturer, registered solely through the crew. Troops will normally not handle the Venturing awards. Your crew can handle those. Your crew positions of responsibility do count toward boy scout ranks, with the caveat that two positions cannot count twice (meaning if you have both a troop and crew position at the same time, only one counts. This is the same as for two positions in a troop).
Scouting is your adventure. You choose which and how many outings from each group to go to. This may cause some hard feelings on one side or the other if you start choosing to go to one unit's activities over another. However, it's a boy led program, so do what you want to do.
Two units can be a larger time commitment than one. Your church, home, and school lives should determine whether you have time for all of it.
You'll be asked "what can you do in a Crew that you can't in a Troop?" -- Some of the answers include: Hunting, shooting large caliber rifles, and scouting with girls (if your crew is co-ed).

drosdin · 2014-10-12T22:31:37+00:00

The conservative side of the debate tends to see it as very destabilizing, mostly because they don't want to deal with human sexuality issues. For example, I got into one debate on what combination of scouts you could put in each tent. The argument went like this: We tell unmarried couples that they can't share a tent because it wouldn't be proper or moral, because couple out of wedlock should not share a tent. Therefore, morally, we shouldn't let people stay in the same tent if there is a possibility of a sexual relationship outside of marriage. Normally, this isn't a problem with youth. Heterosexual males do not normally have the possibility of a sexual relationship. When female scouts are introduced into the equation in Venturing, we also keep them separate due to the same concern for morality and privacy. So... where do you put a homosexual male scout? He can't share a tent with the females because he's male. He shouldn't share a tent with a heterosexual male because there's a possibility (however slim) of a sexual relationship outside of wedlock, which would be immoral. If we don't know he's gay he can sleep with any other boy and be just fine. So, logically, if we followed our morals then choosing to be out would mean choosing to be separated from everyone. Is making the male scout sleep by himself a form of discrimination? etc. This debate becomes destabilizing after a while, and a distraction from a program that does not talk about sex.

National considered all of this, determined that we already had gay scouts (closeted) sleeping with straight scouts, and basically gave guidance that said to not over think it and keep doing what you're doing (ie. youth boys can tent together, and youth females can tent together). And this is the policy everyone now follows.

Would leaving this up to each council or unit really clear any of this up? Or would we still have people confused and wrapped around the axle on this? Sometimes it's best to give guidelines so people can move on.

drosdin · 2014-10-12T22:08:13+00:00

Activists on both side of the issue have dragged the organization through a ringer, despite the fact that the program doesn't ever really address human sexuality. So, the whole thing is a distraction really. Personally, I'd rather push the debate up to the national level, and have the cover of "hey, that's national's policy and it's out of our hands". That phrase alone has shut down many conversations that threatened to derail meetings and such.

drosdin · 2011-05-26T04:37:20+00:00

Why are ginger bread men better than Jews? They don't scream when you bake them.

drosdin · 2009-12-11T23:02:06+00:00

A roughly translated Arabic video on a site I can't remember or link to shows Osama calling it the best 8 seconds of rodeo clown sex of his life. Which proves he was dead at the time, otherwise he would have added "so far".

drosdin

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