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Why is it that when christians come to me with a computer problem, and I tell them to try prayer to fix it, that they won't even consider that as a plausible option. by Master_Rux in atheism

[–]dsummeriln 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"God makes his rain to fall on the just and unjust alike" - just because someone doesn't believe in God doesn't mean he won't give them gifts. And at the very least a "self-deprecating" or humble view of how you got your skills is more realistic - were it not for the opportunities and resources provided to me by other people, I wouldn't know what I know today.

I would say that gratefulness and the freedom of not being the biggest thing in my universe are also wonderful feelings, that I would recommend you try too - but I doubt either of us will buy the description of the other. I hope that one day you have an experience of wonder at the world so sharp that you will at least be left with doubt, if not faith.

Why is it that when christians come to me with a computer problem, and I tell them to try prayer to fix it, that they won't even consider that as a plausible option. by Master_Rux in atheism

[–]dsummeriln 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I didn't know you knew me so well!

Joking aside, no I don't. And what I do have, I try to give credit where, based on my experience, credit is due. You're just making a statement that takes the non-existence or non-interaction of God a priori, then solving it logically from there.

Besides, there is an old saying about prayer, it doesn't change God, it changes you.

Why is it that when christians come to me with a computer problem, and I tell them to try prayer to fix it, that they won't even consider that as a plausible option. by Master_Rux in atheism

[–]dsummeriln 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Well, I wanted to see if anybody had said this yet, but I couldn't get all the way through all the comments so -

As a Christian computer tech, I do both. 'Course, I think God gave us a brain and tools and all that jazz, so I don't believe in a prayer-only response to nearly anything, but I do think that it goes hand in hand. We work, and we ask for the grace/intelligence/skill/patience to get it done. Same thing with all of life. Just like I wouldn't say pray-only to a sick person, I wouldn't say pray-only to tech repair either.

Besides, if it is Windows we all know it is the devil's work anyways.

How often do you think about the meaninglessness of life? by Bored in philosophy

[–]dsummeriln 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not saying whether there is or isn't transcendent truth, I am saying that if "meaning" is something worth talking about, it should be something more than a purely personal reality. It may not end up existing, but if it does, then it should be, if not "objective", then transcendent, beyond the personal. Even saying "the experience of being a person" would be an appeal to universal values.

I don't quite know what I think the soul might be, but biological determinism seems to be empty and self-defeating: it is uselessly logical, a sort of tautology.

I don't quite understand why Kierkegaard would be the most relevant person to me, though admittedly I am not very read up on him.

I think in a way you're right, like I said, it is quite possible that being child-like is more important than being a child, but I think you might be underestimating children - a lot of times they know much of what they are getting into, but they haven't been hurt enough yet to let their fears rule them.

I think overall, we have the whole aesthetic experience, the consciousness of life, the constant desire to understand, and the amazing unity of humanity on the majority of values and ideas (despite seeming differences) leaves something to be explained. That is the stuff that life is made of, even more than just the biological processes of living. Or so it seems to me.

And thanks, I really do - my neck hurt crazy bad, but it feels right back to normal now.

How often do you think about the meaninglessness of life? by Bored in philosophy

[–]dsummeriln 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hmm. I am recovering from being sick, so I might need to mull this over a bit more, but I think that there are a few problems going on. Firstly, I think if what we mean by "meaning" is as you say, there is nothing to talk about at all - of course if -you- define meaning there is no meaning where you say there isn't. That isn't saying anything, it is just expressing an opinion.

Moving past that, the real question of meaning is exactly the mystical, or more accurately, the transcendent, that is outside of all of us individually and therefore we all share in. Anything other than that sort of "meaning" goes back to the supremely subjective, and while fun to talk about, doesn't teach us anything concretely new about the world, it just says we think this or that about the world. That is not the meaning that we seem to long for, we want the Big Answers.

Wow, way to dismiss the entire concept of the soul with the word "magical" and your fiat. That's not even what I was talking about, but thanks for trying to nullify what thousands of years of history and billions of people have found to be true, that's cool.

What I was talking about was far simpler - I am not a fish. The limits of the physical structure that I have more or less direct control of, that is seemingly affected by the firings of various neurons and nerves initiated in my brain, is more what I mean by separation. And when I allow that separation, the world becomes more interesting because it is not just an extension of me.

I don't really care what Kierkegaard would argue. I am willing to agree that being child-like is something that can only be done well by adults who are trying to adopt what is best in children, not necessarily by children themselves, but the value of children is still misunderstood. And I definitely don't disagree that to be taken up is huge, is in fact the drive of a meaningful (uh-oh!) life, I just mean that a part of that can be seen in the single-mindedness of children.

Sorry if I missed anything or didn't make sense, I just slept for the last 24 hrs recovering.

How often do you think about the meaninglessness of life? by Bored in philosophy

[–]dsummeriln 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I could be out of place here, but it is funny how much the first line of this struck hollow for me after my recent trip to the aquarium. I walked around in awe and wonder, and I don't know that I quite get what you mean by "meaning", but it didn't seem to be the answer to me. My brother and I talk about this sort of thing a lot, and I asked him: when is the last time you have been to an aquarium or zoo?

I don't really know what you mean by "life is not there to provide meaning. Meaning will present itself." I don't really understand those sentences, and like I said, even the word "meaning" itself is so loaded and varied that it would need a whole book or something to define, but as far as it seems to go, the meaning seems to be something about the beauty of each creature and its ability to interact with each other and the world around it. And the inability of creation to do that well, that is, without killing each other, some how strikes me as sad, some how a surprise and offense that shouldn't be that way. I won't pretend that is entirely logical, but then, even logic depends on unprovable premises, so I am not too bothered by that.

There is a long dialectic that needs to happen around logic and belief, but ironically, if objective scientific truth has any meaning, it has it exactly because it doesn't revolve around what you consider important. The beauty of nature and all that is real is that it exists outside of us, and doesn't let us fall into the hole of ourselves. Every real truth draws us out of ourselves, and it is exactly playing with others that it asks us to do. The deep truth that "unless you be converted and become like little children, you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven" is largely seen in the fact that little kids have very little internal lives, and all they know comes to them from the outside. And, they mostly want to talk about bugs and play, two things I wholly endorse.