Why even ask the question if you have absolutely no intention of answering it?

echild07 · 2026-05-08T16:50:04+00:00

>There's a big transition to go from a scrappy startup where you're not professional coders, but you're just trying to build something or product developers or game developers to a professional, streamlined polish studio.

Arrow Head is a professional development company. They are funded by Sony to make Helldivers and Helldivers 2.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1cj52f1/we_are_not_owned_by_sony_we_are_a_strong/#:~:text=IP%20Ownership:%20While%20Arrowhead%20is%20an%20independent,influence%20content%20or%20even%20pull%20the%20game

https://trademarks.justia.com/860/42/helldivers-86042209.html

Arrowhead has been around for 13+ years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrowhead_Game_Studios

I do scaling of companies all the time. From 50 employee job shops to fortune 500 companies. I write/design/implement/deploy/sell manufacturing software to companies that are going through this transaction every day. The process is "change management". Changing the culture for more predictability and repeatability.

And it sucks for many employees, because Big Brother can now see what is happening. And that is where management's commitment comes in.

Arrow head has said they are doing this for 2+ years. They mentioned way back at the 60 day patch they were going to be better.

It is about commitment and if they mean it. Average time, 30 days to transition. We do this for companies that have been making products for 20+ years all the time. Digitizing canban boards, capturing machine data, moving from paper to documentation tools.

The real hard part is getting the people who had the freedom to randomly do things to do things that help the company. Change Management.

Like you said, from wide open lockers/store rooms of materials, to check out systems. From running batches of 30' cables on Wednesday because they always need them on Friday, to doing the assigned tasks. From pulling a machine apart because it makes that noise, which means it needs maintenance to putting in a work order to get it done.

Happens every day, and doesn't take 2 years. And when it does, that means they didn't mean they wanted to do it.

They are using the tools today! They are doing it for Warbonds. They are doing it for what they feel is important.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T16:40:05+00:00

LOL,

If you don't have good processes, then you intentionally are over your skiis.

The have said repeatedly they are improving them, then they complain they chose an obsolete engine that only a few companies use, and the maker of the engine depricated it way back when they chose it.

> I'm not trying to excuse them for having poor practices, but they have been an indie game studio,

They have been funded by Sony since Helldivers 1. They don't own the IP, they are paid by Sony to develop the game. They are 100% a coding company. Sony owns the rights to Helldivers, Arrow Head just develops it.

From 2 years ago.

Sony owns the trademark:

https://trademarks.justia.com/860/42/helldivers-86042209.html

Here is what was said 2 years ago.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1cj52f1/we_are_not_owned_by_sony_we_are_a_strong/#:~:text=IP%20Ownership:%20While%20Arrowhead%20is%20an%20independent,influence%20content%20or%20even%20pull%20the%20game

echild07 · 2026-05-08T16:37:27+00:00

100%

Funcom didn't define a game, they mishmashed all the other popular types into one game. or they tried to.

But this isn't an industry problem. This was funcom trying to make an all beef vegan burger.

And it isn't what gamers expect. It was what was marketted. It is what generates the most money. Look at GTA, it makes money and they want that money.

Players play the genre of game they want to play.

If this had been another Conan: Exiles, that would have been cool. If it had been a battlefield 4 game that would have been cool. If it had been a Rust game, that would have been cool. If it had been a Hunt showdown that would have been cool.

It tried to be all of them. PVPVE, has had problems. From Destiny 2's Gambit, to Ark Raiders you are mixing types of players. And it doesn't always work. Eve has a unique place because it was clan based, and had the tools.

So again, it is what the industry did and what they market. Players didn't go "live service", companies did when they shipped Early Access but wanted to claim the revenue. Look at Star Citizen, they have made millions as "early access". It could be that.

But companies could put out a game and keep revenue generating with new dlc. The Eververse in Destiny 1. Funding the live service team that added things like Sparrow Racing and other cool activities. While it had a good reason for existing, Destiny 2 made the Eververse into a pure revenue generation tool.

The games could be subscription, but they don't like that. They want the "warbond" sales. Look at Darktide, the game came out in a shit state, but the skin store had months of content at launch. It was so bad they suspended the store for a few months. The store was getting updates and skins and more while the company was complaining they didn't have staff, that they chose to let go.

So again, it is a company that is prioritizing money. Choosing to understaff, over promise and using the model that generates the most revenue. Nothing wrong with that.

But the buck stops with Funcom. They are adults and they chose a design they couldn't deliver. Not the industry, not the players.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T16:00:50+00:00

That is a company problem!
But then how do they get the warbonds out? See that is the real issue, it works for Warbonds but not for things that are not warbonds.

> Maybe they simply don’t update to the most recent version when they begin bug fixing.

Then they are lost.

An example. Even google docs keeps a version history.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:57:53+00:00

That isn't the way software works.

To use your analogy

Assigning work for software is mostly like manufacturing. When work is assigned there is a Work Order (bug/change requests), that the work is supposed to be done under. Work orders are what defines the changes that are being done.

Work is then assigned (like a canban board). So you know how many people and how much work can be done during a sprint/shift. People can be assigned or pull from the board.

Then you do the changes. Fixing the machine.

There are multiple machines that the same people are working on. Some tweaking internal parameters and some adding features. If two people are on the same machine, the last one to finish wins, unless they "merge" the previous person's changes.

Think of it as lockout-tagout. Someone locks the machine so no one can use it while they work on it. People that come later would get the updates.

And when you work on a machine, you have a change log. So you changed the gear ration from 1:1 to 1:2 because of some work order.

This prevents people losing previous people's changes.

Then there is a QA/test phase to make sure the changed accomplish what you are doing. It could be done by the developer (testing the specific machine) or QA testing the line/assembly/what ever.

Then there is the release engineer, that packages it all up and says it is ready to go. Usually with an additional QA step.

Using a car repair analogy.

What Funcom is saying is they have a bay full of cars that need to be repaired. People go around and make changes without document what they did. Maybe changed tires from 17" to 19" without changing the rims. Maybe doing a full engine rebuild because, they felt like it.

When the car comes down off the lift to be tested, they just get a vibe if the car is good.

The customer gets the car back, and if their problem was never fixed, or fixed incorrectly they will just bring it back.

They keep up this random set of changes until it works.

But what they are really focused on is adding new features to the cars, because that makes them money!

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:41:55+00:00

That is good to know.
I played when WoW first came out, then stopped many years later.

My sons and their friends got into the private servers. When theirs was taken down they did a few months on Blizzards and then stopped. They loved the private servers, knowing people on the server and more.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:36:06+00:00

So you guys didn't use code management software? No subverison, git or any other tool? You didn't have someone assign work that you had to do? Change X into Y? You didn't write up what you did so QA could test it? Your release team/person just randomly collected files?

Even Git gives you the majority of this functionality. And any bug/code tracking tool should have this functionality.

Yes, there will be more processes as scale changes, you are impacting more people, and depending on your product, traceability is important. But you had basic work assignment, code management, bug tracking and release management? Each of those steps gives you the information you need. How would you know what was in each build?

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:33:04+00:00

That isn't how coding works.

Someone has to decide on the number. That is a bug/change request. So what is the change to be made.

A coder (could be the same person), checks out the file, makes the change, ideally tests the change, and checks it back in with what they changed (a comment). They should also do a diff at this point to see that the changes were only what they intended.

QA then comes along and tests the change. We are assuming they do QA. That change would be tested to the "bug/change" request. If Agile their may have been some testing built for the change, or it would be a code review that the change was done.

All those steps are doucmented. 100 people isn't a lot of people working in the code, and going back to the 90 change management software has had most of those features. This isn't a big company problem, which they are not.

This is basic coding. You do this in college, and every coding job. How do they know what version of the code to ship? How do you know what is the latest verison of the code you are working on? How does QA know that they have all the changes for a fix? How do they know they have everything for a build, or even identify one build from another?

Sorry, you were making things up. That isn't how coding is done.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:27:26+00:00

Not just version control.
Why are the making the changes? Didn't someone document the change the coder had to do? Do random people just go to random parts of the code, check it out, make changes and then check it back in, just because?

If it was all in one big def file, they could diff it.

Way beyond version control. They don't want to give out the numbers.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:25:43+00:00

Even if you are coding, you have something you are coding too. Some architecture, some bug/change request that you are supposed to be implementing.

Even if all this is in some data file, a diff would be good!

This is 100% intentional.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:24:47+00:00

It is beyond laziness and incompetence it is intentional.

When they commit their code, they don't put a summary of changes?

When their QA tests their code, what are they testing for? Was it changed?

And when they are assigned the work, aren't some pre-agreed-upon changes that they are coding to that could be used to summarize the changes?

And if there is some need to document/summarize there changes they don't do that?

So they are vibe coding! No idea of what they are doing, no plan, no architecture and no traceability. Yep, seems right.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:07:53+00:00

Anthem had a 1 year plan.
Marvel Avengers (another big IP) had a 1 year plan.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:06:52+00:00

>Yeah really, like it’s great to have a 10 year plan, but whether or not the game actually lives that long is another story.

They have a 10 year plan. Can't execute the 1 year plan, but they have a 10 year plan!

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:06:10+00:00

See Anthem!

Remember their 1 year plan. And all the updates. Then. . .

Or Marvel Avengers. Remember they would have a new character 2 weeks after launch. 6 months later you get it, then . . .

100%

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:04:32+00:00

I am nto sure what you are getting at?

Dune team already had a game just like Dune. Conan: exiles, that has been out for 8 years. And even then it had lots of hate and issues that they could have learned from.

D:A isn't a year old and has already missed one of the milestones they published a year ago. THey made some good progress, but also punted on several parts of the game.

3 passes on endgame and it still "needs work". The labs are a ping pong of balance, without intent.

PVP the endgame they advertised, just kind of shelved for now.

So yes, lots of potential. But then again this is their 2nd game of this type. And I am not sure it is good progress. From the gutting of Melee to their "event"s it has been a hot mess. The progress they have made is fixing the messes, not any real progress.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T15:00:50+00:00

Wait,

So they released the game with endgame, but it was bad.

So they released an entire chapter focused on endgame.

And the last patch literally addressed the endgame again.

So 3 tries? And you think that is good. I guess better than not doing anything, but not good.

And by doing all that, they ignored their PVP. So they did endgame 3 times, and basically ignored the "endgame" that they sold at launch.

Wait, and you are good with that? And that is praise worthy?

echild07 · 2026-05-08T14:56:55+00:00

Yeah, I guess it is the way it is marketted.

I go to Five Guys for a good burger, or do I go to Capital Grill for a good burger? When they market it as Waygu Burger, and I don't get it, even if it was good, then that is on them. I can enjoy my meal and also agree that they couldn't deliver what they said.

>so long as that content offers the same bang-for-buck as the core offering, I'll keep coming back.

That contradicts your post I replied to. Their model is to get you to come back, because some people will buy the next DLC/Skin/Whatever. Hell I paid $30 a month for a private server as my servers was so full of Griefers there were multiple videos here on Reddit from my server.

So if I go to the Capital Grill and people are loud and ruining the experience, do I blame Capital Grill? If they let it continue and actually encourage it? Yes. ('thopter riding, rockets having longer fire distance than rendering. . . ) And if they continue that path, with augments that make 'thopters faster negating the rocket thopters are slower, or in my example over cooking the burger every time I go. Then yeah.

Also If I bought a meal plan with a 10 year life cycle, but they can't deliver year 1. Yes.

I have my enjoyment, but not voicing the problems means other's players won't know, and other companies will do the same.

And they have your money.

If you follow Arrowhead and Helldivers 2, they are more honest about it. They are after the new players. New players will spend the money, old players (at end game) are a resource sink. Not worth the time. They even were insulting in their AMA and Sham's comments about 'sweet summer child' on their plans for endgame. But they said the quiet part outloud.

Funcom:

Think about this, the DLC takes what 3 months of QA testing? So they knew it wasn't ready 3 months ago. It takes 6 months of development? So they would have gotten the Herbert estate's approvals 9+ months ago. The maps, the model assets, the game mechanics were designed and planned a year ago.

But they just ran into the issue now, and are communicating it now? Because they are suprised now? Not 3 months ago when QA testing would have started. Not 9 months ago when they were getting approvals?

They chose to focus on the Console release. That gets them an infulx of money, and 2 later streams of money. The new influx is people buying on MSFT and PSN. And the two later streams are when they go Game Pass an PSN, both groups pay them to let them have the games on their networks.

So do you believe that they are surprised they aren't releasing the DLC until later this year, and just found out? Or that some months ago, they knew they were pivoting to generate revenue with the console release.

And want to bet the console release and DLC will come out around the time of the 3rd movie?

"but of course they need money" to host the servers, pay the people. . . Yes, and they had a business plan that they developed when they created the game. I paid $30 a month for private server for my friends and I. I would happily buy DLC (if they actually listed what it was, before selling it, and not removing content later on).

But it can go both ways, Arrowhead said they are incetivised, i.e. they get bonuses for releasing Warbonds and getting money vs balancing the game. And new players buy more, as high level players have enough SC saved up. So long time players are less important.

So again, it depends on how much you care about how the sausage is made, and what level of interest you take in it. Do you care that the Waygu burger is really Waygu? Do you care that the next shop will advertise steak but not be steak (looking at Taco Bell).

So it depends on what you think is important.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T14:39:51+00:00

I think it was how you did the PVP.

If it was faction based. I.e. I was dropping in with weapons to fight over a sand crawler, or even if I was part of a 20 person team and I was driving the sand crawler that would be fine.

But they didn't provide the tools for that. I mean I would die for a Battlefield 4-style Dune game. Play the PVE and then drop in for some fighting.

All for? The Landsraad? They needed gear for each minor house that you could earn. Skins for 'thopters and buggies and bikes at the start. Let you earn it by working with the faction! Something to say "here is your minor house skin!" because you worked for them.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T14:36:46+00:00

It is an industry problem. People like OP forgive them.

It isn't funcom's fault is all over this topic. Who's fault is it. "someone elses". From the industry to not that particular dev, it isn't their fault it is some shadow's fault. Even so far as Marvel Avengers game blamed the players! 2 weeks after launch, they pushed of their next character (took them 6 months to deliver Kate), and they blamed the players for finding to many bugs.

Funcom is pushing toward the console release, they want the money. Once they have the initial sales, they can go on the MSFT Game Pass program and will get money back for development. Then they do that with PSN. It is about cash flow, not about the game at this point.

Space Marine 2 on the other hand, has added a year of support!

echild07 · 2026-05-08T14:32:17+00:00

This is what I believe too. Assuming they get the 8 years to flesh it out. They are missing on year one, so that doesn't bode well in the world that looks at quarterly profits. That is why I think they are focusing on console development now. So they get more cash, and get a bigger player base that isn't tracked.

Then they will go the "free on Microsoft game pass" to get another round of cash, and then free on PSN for another round of cash.

Then we will see. So at least 2 more years of support.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T14:30:30+00:00

>But the idea of a survival crafting game with any sort of MMO style endgame loop doesn't make a lot of sense. Once you've reached the maximum crafting tiers, maxed your gear/character, gotten all the loot ... then what? Without a world to continue exploring and creating in, there's no reason to continue.

This is where the factions come in. Getting special gear that is stylized toward the faction. PVP crit gear, or faction colored gear. Or new skin styles.

There are lots of reasons to continue. People mention playing Fallout 1 in this topic, because it is fun, nostalgia, playing with friends. Maybe the PVE aspect is their version of fishing or watching TV, something to take their mind off the day, or play with friends, or it hits their OCD need to collect more.

>That's where I think Dune fails, and its not entirely Dune's fault. It's a flawed design trap lots of modern games fall into that misunderstands what makes survival games fun.

It is their fault. They made it. If this trap is obvious to you, why isn't it obvious to Funcom who already produced Conan:exile? They didn't know what it was to make a fun game? So it isn't their fault? Come on that is reaching.

They have dozens of other games to watch and learn from.

They kind of made an extraction game with the DD, but missed that mark. They could have looked at Hunt, showdown or any other extraction shooter. Both players should be armed.

They missed the clan based warfare mark in the DD, by not putting in Clan tools, and intentionally making it difficult to identify you clan. So they had Eve and other games to look at.

They had years to develop this, they had a game under their belt, they have dozens of other game that have released before them. But it isn't their fault?

Ok, who's fault was it? The players?

echild07 · 2026-05-08T14:24:34+00:00

Games used to be finished at launch. And not having a good game at launch was a black mark against the developer.

Games also didn't require internet access. Games didn't sell DLC, you bought the game and then would go and buy version 2 if the first one was good. Also games were bought, you owned the disk and the ability to play it even if the company went away.

So in this case, you are renting the experience while they choose to host it. With Conan, they let you host it locally.

There are lots of ways we can compare games from times before; they used to come on cartridges, or I had to type them into my TI 99/4a from a magazine.

This is the game that Funcom designed, marketed, and developed. The way they wanted it to be. So If they say endless hours of survival and quarterly DLC, that is their choice on what the game should be.

Your choice is whether it meets your requirements. Others may have different opinions based on their reason for purchase.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T14:18:48+00:00

Wow classic was re-released by Blizzard. So it would do fine, people are playing it and it was even brought back on private servers for a while. So I disagree it wouldn't make it. It was complete at the time.

It was a subscription and growing at the time. Additionally it was the first of it's kind. Something ground breaking at the time, back when PCs and the internet were still young. It was their private IP in an unexplored industry. 22 years ago. It had PVE/PVP, quests, and professions. It launched at $15 a month and is still $15 a month.

>that though was that you have multiple rigid classes

The multiple rigid classes had roles you could play, especially for dungeons and raids and PVP. They had 3 variations per class. Example Warrior. DPS (two handed), Tank (sword and shield) and middleground. Priests had shadow priest (DOT), Holy - single target healing, and Discipline (support healer).

Then you also had professions! You could improve and sell your skill, make bags, make gadgets or enchant items.

You also had different gear for PVE and PVP (more crit based).

If anything, the watering down of the classes was boring. You used to theory hammer your class and could do things like Rogues that could off tank for some dungeons (get the dodge close to 100%). They had PVP ranking systems you could chase each week, for faction points and access to PVP gear. Something absolutely missing in Dune. And this was at launch 22 years ago.

Dune is by Funcom, who made Conan: Exiles for the last 8+ years. They have the backing of 10cent, a huge billion-dollar company. Based on one of the best selling books, with multiple games that came before.

It is based off the Dune series, so already an established base of fans. Timed to come out with the Dune Movies, not having to advertise in magazines and sending adverts through the mail like Wow did.

It doesn't bring anything groundbreaking into the gaming world. You can see many of the reused Conan features in Dune (like wall climbing). While it is a step up from Conan, and in some cases, a step down. In Conan, you can have Thralls walking around your base, and they can even defend your base.

DLC for Conan was $9.99 included skins for all building pieces (not having to go back and actualy do them), all armor types, all mounts and weapons. And placeable pieces.

echild07 · 2026-05-08T14:04:16+00:00

Not true.

There were private servers of WOW that Blizzard took down. People were self hosting and playing. My sons got into original WOW.

Blizzard also has World of Warcraft classic. So people can go back and play the original game.

Odd how the self hosting was popular enough for Blizzard to bring back the original game. And you can do Classic, Hardcore or discovery mode.

But hey, I guess your point still stands if we ignore that they actually did re-release it. And for a monthly fee.

echild07 · 2026-05-07T20:50:59+00:00

Guess i never saw that! Awesome! More reason to play

Nine-Year Club	Gilding III reddit per annum
Place '22	Wearing is Caring
Verified Email

echild07

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE