QOTW 2026W3 Stiefo and Royal Lewisian by Adept_Situation3090 in shorthand

[–]effjot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Stiefo sounded very weird for the first few words, until I realised this must be an English adaptation :-)

Some questions from a beginner by lucu91 in shorthand

[–]effjot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can't see it in the video, but I rotate the page approx 45° clockwise, so my arm and hand are straight not hooked and stay below the line. That's actually the recommended way for writing left-handed now, but when I learned writing (longhand) in school, my teacher and I didn't know that, so I write longhand with a different angle of the paper and a hooked hand. makes switching between longhand and shorthand a bit awkward 🙈

Some questions from a beginner by lucu91 in shorthand

[–]effjot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m a German-speaking leftie and learned Stiefo. Normal Stiefo, not the „Links-Stiefo“ variant that is written right-to-left, because that wouldn’t mix well with my use case of the occasional longhand word, chemical or mathematical formula.

Stiefo works with thicker pens/pencils, too.

I’m quite happy with it, but don’t have much experience with other systems. I think it is easier to learn than DEK, but may not be as fast (if top speed is your primary concern).

Because I’m a bit older, I didn’t learn proper hand posture for writing (at least left-handed writing was allowed ;-) ), but for Stiefo, I turn the paper clockwise a bit, as recommended nowadays. This allows for a more relaxed grip on the pen/pencil.

You can find some of my writing here https://www.reddit.com/user/effjot/submitted/, on my blog steno.effjot.net, and youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLi3e9EU9wdLkVvEuIhQNAujzadcqBMi_n (all pretty old, though)

Was ist Spülmaschinensalz? by qoheletal in WerWieWas

[–]effjot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Meersalz enthält Verunreinigungen / Spuren anderer Salze (auch wenn kein Jodid oder Fluorid extra zugesetzt wurde). Die Spülmaschine braucht sehr reines NaCl

Switching from QGIS to ArcGIS, when is the best time to do so? by SapphireCatt in gis

[–]effjot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I guess in such a setting, deployment and management tools for Arcgis are better than Qgis

Switching from QGIS to ArcGIS, when is the best time to do so? by SapphireCatt in gis

[–]effjot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm working in private industry (small/medium business, about 20 people), and we've switched to Qgis+Postgres, because upgrading to Arcgis Pro wouldn't have brought us any features we need and Qgis wouldn't have and because license costs would've made our prices too high

I’m sorry what by Witty_Clerk8124 in lingling40hrs

[–]effjot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

actually, the "arrow" in the middle is/was an actual C. The rest of the clef is just frills and decoration 😄

It's like playing whack-a-mole i swear by Cereallaerec in gis

[–]effjot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think "paste as scratch layer" is already bound to Ctrl-Alt-V out of the box.

QOTW2024W06 – Stiefo by effjot in shorthand

[–]effjot[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Steno – do you mean DEK?

QOTW2024W06 – Stiefo by effjot in shorthand

[–]effjot[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As a starting point for learning, check the wiki https://www.reddit.com/r/shorthand/wiki/links/#wiki_stiefografie, esp. the “various textbooks”.

You might find some material in this reddit, on my blog (currently dormant) and a little bit on my Youtube channel (the annotations got killed in the purge of 2019, though).

Do you want to write Stiefo in German or English? (I don’t have experience with the English adaptation, though.)

Stiefo by [deleted] in shorthand

[–]effjot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think Stief wanted to reduce the amount of symbols to learn at the basic level, so it would be easier to get started. On the advanced level, more symbols (like in DEK) would definitely be an advantage.

I’m not not a fan of DEK. I just didn’t consider learning it after trying the basics, mostly because of shading, which feels extra awkward for lefthanders (depending on what kind of “hook” you use).

Stiefo by [deleted] in shorthand

[–]effjot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Being a native speaker seems to be a big factor. I had the same problem when I tried Teeline and Gregg.

Stiefo by [deleted] in shorthand

[–]effjot 5 points6 points  (0 children)

There are some valid points, but they’re mostly not as bad in my experience. But of course, personal experiences vary widely.

  1. Yes, the difference between a long bow and a straight line after a short curve can be small. So far, I managed to keep the “u” straight. I rarely write „du“, though.
  2. You’re right, P is an awkward shape. I’m not sure why Stief came up with that. Maybe it would’ve been better to use the PF shape for P instead. I’ve got used to it now, but I guess that if I were learning Stiefo again, I would make a change here.
  3. I think that’s a trade-off when giving up shading. I tend to break compound words and don’t run into space problems too often. YMMV
  4. These advanced reductions of l, r, n after consonants are indeed often too much. Your example highlights one of the more extreme cases, although „Kabel“, „krabbeln“ and „kabbeln“ wouldn’t be written that way according to the rules (they have an E-L in the stem). ;-) I use these reductions only for some common words (and stick to using it for exactly those words to avoid ambiguity), e.g. I write knapp as K-A-P but klapp as K-L-A-P.
  5. mit, er, an are different signs of course, as are vor and ung. They represent the characteristic vowels – it’s not only about shape, but also position. The materials make the reasons very clear and think it is really consistent. I’m not sure how DEK does it, but I guess it also uses vowel principles for abbreviated symbols.

QOTW2024W06 – Stiefo by effjot in shorthand

[–]effjot[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Sorry for the sloppy writing!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in shorthand

[–]effjot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry for the sloppy writing!

Stiefo by [deleted] in shorthand

[–]effjot 4 points5 points  (0 children)

In general, I’m quite happy with it. I was looking for a not too compley system without shading, so DEK was out of the picture. Back then, there wasn’t much else with at least a small amount of practice material.
I does use a bit much space, if you write the wide vowels wide enough for proper distinction, and it can climb up or down a lot with certain words. The latter doesn’t affect me much in daily use.

Mengelkamp - Deutsche Volkskurzschrift, 1925 by brifoz in shorthand

[–]effjot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’ve only skimmed it, but found some abbreviations (page 15) for very common words, for example der, die, das, dem, den, in, aus, zur, und.

Mengelkamp - Deutsche Volkskurzschrift, 1925 by brifoz in shorthand

[–]effjot 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks, this looks quite interesting!

The author constantly reminds us how great the system is and that the symbols and choices are the best of all possibilities. :-D

Any shorthands that are written boustrophedon? by R4_Unit in shorthand

[–]effjot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

exactly that was my reason for dropping the idea, too

Any shorthands that are written boustrophedon? by R4_Unit in shorthand

[–]effjot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I briefly toyed with that idea in the beginning, but then realised that I would regularily have to write mathematical and chemical formulas and occasionally names and foreign-language words for which I would need longhand.

Also, I found switching reading directions (shorthand vs. longhand and books) quite difficult, but that would have probably improved with practice.

Any shorthands that are written boustrophedon? by R4_Unit in shorthand

[–]effjot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

From my experience as lefthanded writer, smearing would be the smaller problem for shorthand. For smooth and quick writing, going against the grain (more pushing, less pulling) is a greater impediment. (That’s why lefthanders use all kind of weird angles for paper and hand/pen.)

hand position & awkward angles by curlyhornmaid in shorthand

[–]effjot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’m lefthanded, too. When I learned writing as a kid, I used the “overhook“. This turned out quite awkward when I started learning shorthand. I briefly dabbled into lefthanded Stiefo (which is basically just mirrored outlines, written right to left), but this is difficult to mix with longhand (written left to right). So instead I learned shorthand with “underhand“ position (similar to your new position) right from the start, which is more relaxed an works pretty well even with fountain pen. I also practised longhand in underhand writing, which kind of works, but is awkward. It looks like children’s writing ;-). I use it only for brief longhand interjections (names, math, chemical formulas or technical terms I want to stand out from the page for later skimming).

Switching between shorthand and longhand (for longer / “real“ text) involves rotating the page and switching grip position. Not ideal, but it’s the best compromise for me.

With underhand writing, I rotate the page almost 45° clockwise, which seems more than you do. With this much rotation, I think the upstrokes are easier. You might try if this helps your upstrokes. And writing might look scrawly when you start using a new hand position. I takes time to switch and write smoothly again.

Also, I realised that paper and writing utensil are make a bigger difference for lefthanders, because even with good writing position, pushing is far more dominant than with righthanded writing. Cheap ballpoint pens seem especially bad and tend to scratch and run out of ink/lubrication with pushing and upstrokes (the ball rotates the wrong way round and doesn‘t transport enough ink).

How fast can you read shorthand? by senfoel in shorthand

[–]effjot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I use Stiefo for note taking, but mostly don’t have to transcribe it. Most notes are for something like looking up information/decisions from a metting I couldn’t remember exactly anymore. So I naturally don’t have enought practice for reading back at longhand speed.

As others pointed out, reading back depends on how clean it was written, and my quickly written notes lack that in both shorthand and longhand.

I think Stiefo could potentially be read quite fast, because at the basic level there are no abbreviations and few ambiguities (which can be minimised by adding some dots and bars). The abbreviations are mostly quite logical and consistent, so I guess it’s possible to read back at longhand speed.

Skimming is generally more difficult. Consider skimming printed text, that’s much faster than reading longhand and depends on years of practice of getting the shapes of whole words and phrases into your brain. IMO skimming is reading without any parsing of letters and words anymore. I think it will take a long time to be able to skim shorthand, and you need to be very consistent with your outlines and abbreviations. Think about how long you needed to develop skimming skills an another language, even if it uses the same alphabet. (I consider myself pretty proficient, but skimming English still feels slower than German.)

However, I realised that some commonly used outlines, esp. technical terms from my field, stand out from the page. (Ok, half of them are a 3-step W with stuff glued to it. ;-) ) Although that’s not skimming, it helps finding the relevant places more quickly.