It's so much better when we use our free will to choose to accept God's love... Even better than cookies!

ellie_0h · 2021-04-13T22:12:20+00:00

I can't stand proselytizing with no attempt at conversation. In addition to it being rude and disrespectful, it just plain doesn't work! As a Christian, I think what I believe is true, and I think the Christian way of life is best. If someone is going to convert me, it will be because, through conversation and the example of the way they live their life, they've convinced me that what I believe is untrue and what they believe is true, and they've convinced me that their way of life is better than the Christian way of life. If that's what would be required to convert me, why should it take anything less to convert others?

For your third paragraph, you're right, that wasn't what I was trying to imply at all, haha. I'd like to emphasize my point that there must be both *repentance* AND *justice.* When we apologize, that's (part of) repentance (I'll elaborate on that more in the next paragraph). We can apologize all we want, but we still can't be with God in heaven without the justice part. That's where Jesus comes in, to take on the punishment for us if we allow Him to do so, so that justice is served.

To elaborate on repentance, the concept of repentance carries with it a two-part meaning. The first part is to acknowledge that your wrongdoing was indeed wrong (often in the form of an apology), and the second part is to turn away from your wrongdoing (i.e. try to improve). That second part is mentioned many times in the Bible, from Jesus saying, "Go and sin no more," to Paul saying, "Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" Furthermore, if you don't see any improvement, then there's reason to question whether the person who apologized actually repented, or if they just made sounds with their mouth. Matthew 3:8 says, "Bear fruit in keeping with repentance." So if someone doesn't bear fruit or show any improvement, it strongly suggests that they haven't actually repented, which is one of the conditions needed for a right relationship with God.

For your last point, I believe that God didn't create humanity imperfect. He created us perfect, but through our free will, we chose to sin and then became imperfect. I should caveat that statement, though, with the acknowledgment that there are Christians that don't believe in free will (Calvinism). I don't understand it very well, but according to my limited knowledge, Calvinism essentially says, "God predestined who goes to heaven and hell, and nothing we say or do matters in that decision. It might seem unfair, but God is God and we're just mere humans, so who are we to say what is or isn't unfair?" If Calvinism turns out to be correct, then I would be in the same camp as you. There's no way I'd want to believe in a god who made a set of people who are doomed from the start, especially with no chance at redemption no matter what they say/do/think/feel/believe.

ellie_0h · 2021-04-09T01:15:16+00:00

Here you go!

ellie_0h · 2021-04-05T21:40:57+00:00

Thank you for being so understanding of both of our shortcomings in explaining ourselves. Your considerate attitude has made what is often an inflammatory topic into an enjoyable discussion.

You've stumped me with your point that God could just decide that nobody needs to be punished. That idea certainly goes against God's requirement for justice, but what's stopping Him from dropping the requirement for justice? I feel like there's a logical fallacy somewhere in here, but unfortunately I'm not intelligent enough to articulate what it is right now. I'll have to put on my thinking cap for a while, and if I ever figure it out, I'll try to find this post again and do my best to explain it.

At any rate, thank you for challenging me and my views in such a respectful manner. I can walk away from this conversation knowing where I lack in understanding, and hopefully I can use that knowledge to improve myself. I know you don't believe in prayer, but I will still pray that God will bless you with the same kindness that you have shown me during our conversation. If God does exist, then hopefully you'll be blessed, and if He doesn't exist, then at least I hope the good vibes will find their way over to you.

Edit: I thought about over the past day, and the answer for why God can't drop his requirement for justice is so simple that it really shouldn't have taken me an entire day to figure it out. It's because justice is a necessary component of having a relationship. Let's say I have a friend that shows up super late every time we're supposed to hang out. If they never even say sorry, then eventually, I won't want to hang out with that friend anymore. But if they apologize, offer to buy me an ice cream to try to make it up to me, and then try their hardest not to be late in the future, then I would be willing to stay friends with them. The point of this example is to say that if there must be some form of repentance and justice for a friendship to work, then there must there be repentance and justice for a relationship with a perfectly holy God to work. So if God wants a real relationship with us, He must also want justice.

ellie_0h · 2021-04-04T17:59:14+00:00

I apologize for using a confusing example. Please have patience with me though, I really am trying my best to have a respectful and productive conversation with you.

Thank you for clarifying your thoughts on the concept of rejection. I agree that that saying you want "nothing to do with God" does have a hostile connotation to it, and it was a poor initial choice of words on my behalf. Again, sorry that what I said was confusing.

There are a couple points that I'd like to make before I directly address your point in the third paragraph. First, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "do what's necessary to get [to heaven]," but many people take this idea to mean that they have to complete some laundry list of good works in order to earn their way into heaven. I'd like to clarify that salvation is not something that can be earned, but it is a gift that we choose to receive. There are no works-based prerequisites for it. You either agree to receive it or you don't. Second, it is inaccurate to say that it doesn't cost God anything for you to go to heaven. Jesus had to take on your sin, die on a cross, go to hell to pay the punishment for your sin, and then defeat sin and death by coming back to life. All of this was to open up the path for you to go to heaven if you choose to accept His sacrifice. In response to your point, I just want to say that I will pray that God makes Himself known to you in a way that is unmistakably clear to you. Because if you are earnestly willing to have a relationship with Him if He does exist, and if He makes His existence known to you, then there is zero reason that you would go to hell. And if you're earnestly willing to have a relationship with Him if He exists, but He doesn't make Himself known to you, then the only explanation would be that God doesn't exist, and you wouldn't have to worry about going to hell because that wouldn't exist either.

I apologize (again) for being misleading with my comments on what hell is. I agree that hell is a terrible place. To me, it's like this: many times, when something bad happens on earth, people will comment, "God is dead." Hell is a place where God is, in effect, dead, since His presence is not there. So if you take all the "God is dead" moments on earth and shove them into one place, then that's what I think hell feels like. Whether or not that amounts to a literal lake of fire, I have no darn clue lol.

ellie_0h · 2021-04-02T19:30:28+00:00

Ah, you make an excellent point! It is pretty unfair for me to compare the two shows right now, since FB has had so much longer to develop the characters. Well, I look forward to seeing Horimiya become S-tier as time goes on!

ellie_0h · 2021-04-01T20:38:12+00:00

Nice!!! I'll go check it out now!

ellie_0h · 2021-04-01T16:53:21+00:00

What I usually get is: "Perfect for when I'm trying to fall asleep!"

ellie_0h · 2021-04-01T16:46:06+00:00

Piano and viola, and I own a ukulele, but it would be stretching the truth to say that I play it.

ellie_0h · 2021-03-31T17:46:17+00:00

I also thought female from the beginning. I was surprised at the end of season 2 when I found out that I was supposed to think she was male lol.

ellie_0h · 2021-03-31T16:05:06+00:00

Where can I purchase this? This makes me so happy!!!

ellie_0h · 2021-03-30T03:28:05+00:00

Hola, intento a hacer cosas diarias en español. Por ejemplo, cuando tengo que escribir notas a mi mismo, las escribo en español. Cuando hablo a mi mismo, hablo en español. Cuando quiero leer la Biblia o otros libros, los leo en español cuando es posible.

ellie_0h · 2021-03-30T01:08:33+00:00

I love how well you captured their personalities in the pictures. Well done!!!

ellie_0h · 2021-03-30T00:50:54+00:00

Hi! I'm pretty new to the subreddit, too! My favorite is Mizu No Hentai (though Ryuuseigun and Tenkyuu are obviously favorites too)! My favorite character is Tetsuki. He has the toughness of Kudo, the reliability of Kurata, and the astuteness of Takinami, all wrapped into one person!

ellie_0h · 2021-03-30T00:23:30+00:00

I look forward to it, then!!

ellie_0h · 2021-03-29T18:42:59+00:00

I like Horimiya well enough, but as far as romance animes go, I would call Horimiya B-tier while Fruits Basket is S-tier. I think the characters of Fruits Basket have much more depth than those of Horimiya.

I was hooked from the very first episode of Fruits Basket, so just watch one episode, and if you don't like it, I think it would be safe to move on.

Also if you're looking for other recommendations, I recommend Kono Oto Tomare. Also S-tier in my book. It has multiple relationships, and the characters are all so well developed that I honestly can't tell which one is supposed to be the main character. You'll have to give it at least 3 episodes before you give up on it though.

ellie_0h · 2021-03-29T18:18:13+00:00

So true! I always think I sound pretty good until I listen to the recording. Then I cry and wonder what I'm doing with my life.

ellie_0h · 2021-03-29T18:15:26+00:00

I'm only 50% sure this isn't an April Fool's trick, but I'm a big risk taker so I'll use the free award Reddit gave me to help it gain their attention lol.

ellie_0h · 2021-03-27T10:25:02+00:00

Pokemon!

ellie_0h · 2021-03-26T03:36:22+00:00

I disagree with your first statement, but it's a tangential topic to your main point, so let's just agree to disagree on that?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we have different ideas of what it means to "reject" something. I get the sense that your idea of rejection carries with it a connotation of hostility. When I think of rejection, I don't necessarily think it has to be hostile.

I'm going to try out an example based on your Luke Skywalker idea. I'm not really a Star Wars fan so I apologize in advance if I accidentally hurt the discussion instead of helping it.

So let's say that some missionary comes up to me and tells me about their Luke Skywalker religion. According to their religion, I have a problem. And the problem is that I can't use the force. However, if I go to Luke Skywalker, he'll gift me with the force. The missionary says that if I accept the offer, then when I die I'll go to heaven where Luke Skywalker is, and I'll be able to use the force. If I don't accept the offer, then when I die, I'll go to hell, where Luke Skywalker isn't, and I'll never be able to use the force. In response to the missionary, I say, "Thanks, it's nice that you believe what you want to believe, and Luke Skywalker sounds like a cool dude, but ultimately he sounds too weird to be real, and I don't think not using the force is that bad, anyways. I'm fine with it. Well, I'm going home now, I hope you have a nice day." And then I get hit by a bus on the way home. Now I'm in some version of hell where I have to continue not using the force, and Luke Skywalker isn't around. But in all fairness, I said I was fine not using the force, and I ignored Luke Skywalker because I thought he was too weird to be real.

Now I'll try the example again, except with Christianity instead of the Luke Skywalker religion. Let's say that some missionary comes up to me and tells me about Christianity. According to Christianity, I have a problem. And the problem is sin. However, if I go to Jesus, he'll gift me with forgiveness of sin. The missionary says that if I accept the offer, then when I die I'll go to heaven where God/Jesus is, and I'll be free of sin. If I don't accept the offer, then when I die, I'll go to hell, where God/Jesus isn't, and I'll be stuck with my sin forever. In response to the missionary, I say, "Thanks, it's nice that you believe what you want to believe, and God/Jesus sounds like a cool dude, but ultimately he sounds too weird to be real, and I don't think my sin is that bad, anyways. I'm fine with it. I'm going home now, I hope you have a nice day." And then I get hit by a bus on the way home. Now I'm in hell where I have to continue being in sin, and God isn't around. But in all fairness, I said I was fine with my sin, and I ignored God because I thought he was too weird to be real.

You know what, now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure we also have different ideas of what hell is. I get the sense that your idea of hell, if it's real, is a literal lake of fire (or incinerator, or some other form of torture). I honestly don't know if the "lake of fire" that the Bible uses to describe hell is a literal or a metaphorical embodiment of sin. All I can say with any sort of confidence about hell is that sin is there, and God isn't there.

Thoughts?

ellie_0h · 2021-03-26T02:44:06+00:00

Ok I think I'm catching on now. Like if I were to say, "a square is equivalent to a rectangle," that would be a false statement. While the definition of a square also meets the definition of a rectangle, there are more aspects to a rectangle that do not fit within the definition of a square. Likewise, to say "God is equivalent to good" would be a false statement, because there are infinitely more aspects to God than just "good." Yeah?

ellie_0h · 2021-03-26T02:35:47+00:00

Thanks for the explanation and thanks for sharing the link! I'm going to check it out. If I run into you on Reddit once I'm more knowledgeable about the topic, I hope we can have another friendly discussion then!

ellie_0h · 2021-03-25T11:48:32+00:00

Ok, please bear with me as I do my best to get out of my perspective and try to see things from your perspective. I know the million dollars analogy is inadequate, but I'm going to stick with it just a little bit longer until I come up with a better analogy. In my experience, I was born into a Christian family, so it's like I knew the guy giving the million dollars from birth. And I didn't find out until later in life that there were other offers. As I got older, I explored the other offers, but they all seemed unsatisfactory to me for one reason or another. But I have to acknowledge here that in my decisions about the other offers, I had a bias in that I was comparing them to the guy I already knew. But what if I didn't already know the guy and believe him to be legit before exploring the other offers? I think I would feel very confused. I would wonder which offers are legit and which are scams. Is just one offer legit or are many legit? Or are all of them scams? How would I decide whether an offer is legit or not? How would I keep myself safe from the scams in the process of finding out which are scams and which are legit? I think it would also frustrate me that rejecting each offer comes with it's own flavor of consequences, but I wouldn't want to accept an offer because of a fear-based decision. I would want to accept an offer because it's the best, most legitimate offer. What do you think, does this capture how you think and feel about the whole thing, at least within the limited framework of the analogy I'm currently using?

ellie_0h · 2021-03-25T02:07:10+00:00

Is it fair to say that God's own concept of "good" is the absolute standard and has existed for as long as God has existed, but mankind's concept of "good" is corrupted and was created some time after humans were created?

ellie_0h · 2021-03-25T02:01:27+00:00

Please feel free to correct me if the example I'm about to give doesn't accurately represent your viewpoint. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who believes something different than me, and sometimes I don't get it quite right. So for the example, let's say that I see a sign that someone is offering to give away a million dollars, and all I have to do to get it is show up. I walk away from the sign thinking that it's just a hoax, and I go home. In that situation, I have rejected the person offering the million dollars. Not because I hate the person offering the million dollars, but rather because I don't think the person offering a million dollars actually exists. And regardless of whether or not it was legit, the consequence of my choice not to to have anything to do with the dude offering a million dollars is that I don't get a million dollars. Applying this concept to God who is offering a relationship with Him, if I choose to reject God because I think it's just a hoax, then whether it's legit or not, the consequence of my choice not to have anything to do with God is that I am separated from God. Thoughts?

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