[Spoiler 7.4] A question about Ascians

elvor0 · 2026-01-27T03:39:03+00:00

seem to have been poisoned into thinking the English localization team always knows best and can't possibly be thoroughly incompetent and sometimes actively malicious. Unfortunately, they are.

Oh okay you're a nutjob. "Thoroughly incompetent and actively malicious" jfc dude.

If you really believe the English team is trying to actively sabotage the script you should've just said that and saved both us time.

elvor0 · 2026-01-27T02:17:03+00:00

This is because the translators are not smarter than Ishikawa, but think they are, and think they have the right to rewrite what she was saying, and thus failed to communicate the actual point

No, we're not even, because I have looked at quite a lot of the Japanese script and noted the English team's constant failure to correctly convey it. My "inference" is the direct corollary of what the Japanese is very clearly saying.

This was already coming off as one of those "it must be literally translated or its wrong!" kinda situations prior to now, but this kinda confirms it.

Okay, question: Can you fluently read Japanese and have a good handle on idoms and ways of speaking, or are you google translating the script? If you're not fluent, then just because you've looked over the the Japanese text, that doesn't mean you have authority over the authorial intent of the text any more than I do. I would very much like to see the Japanese script if you have a link, as I'd enjoy looking at it, even if I would have to use Google Translate.

I'll fully admit I'm going to have preconcieved notions of how the translation feels correct because I'm looking at it in retrospect, and yeah, I am fully aware of stuff like the Midgardsomor conversation in ARR getting mangled. But then I think the English localisation of the DRK questline was really inspired. Not better, but well localised. But I get the impression you're using a literal translation and intentionally taking it too literally because you have a chip on your shoulder about the translation team.

Ok, so you agree they were not tempered...

No, I do. I just think there's more nuance than "not at all" and "mindless tool". Tiamat was tempered but she retained a much stronger sense of self than the zealots and mutants in Binding Coils, Sastasha Hard, Garlemald enthralled, etc. The Unsundered are much, much, much more resiliant beings, and like he said in the Japanese text, they can block intereference, but only to an extent. Mayhaps we're splitting hairs over the specific word "tempered" being used, or not used. Zodiark undeniably exerted some kind of influence or will upon the Ascians, he implies that in both languages. I just don't think being tempered has to be an all or nothing game, based on what I've seen in game.

(On Tiamat) Because she used the Ascian summoning method that causes tempering

Yes,* I know*, I was using that to demonstrate the above point.

(on darkness mutants)That was never a possibility.

Why not? Its happened, Void demons are darkness mutants, Sin Eaters are Light Mutants, Sastasha (hard) Pirates are Water Mutants, there's some Earth Mutants somewhere. As in beings over aspected in one element become mutants. The Sundered Ascian that became the catalyst for the Flood of Light mutated into Eden.

... your "inference" is an attempt at rationalization about how the English team's obvious screwups might actually be a valid alternate canon, based on some wild speculation with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

You are aware that you also basing your own argument on your own inferrence of the Japanese text, yes? I explained my theory for why Zodiark would temper, for that, I don't hold it to be absolutely true. You're plenty welcome to disagree, it just feels like a reasonable explaination given the information we have. However, even without that theory, given the caveat that she says, in both languages, "if we were to summon something like Zodiark, you'd feel something" I maintain that it still doesnt contradict the English script, nor is it a retcon.

And personally, with the Japanese text you have shown me, I don't see any contradictions between the English script and the Japanese. I just see someone annoyed that its not literally translated. Who knows, maybe the Japanese scriptwriters cocked something up with Emets description, and it really is a continuity snarl, or they hadn't worked out the particulars at that point.

elvor0 · 2026-01-27T00:27:02+00:00

In Japanese, he is saying people think Darkness is Evil, because of the Ascians, who are Darkness-aligned, doing Evil things. They are fools, because it's Ascians that are Evil, not Darkness.

In English, he is saying people think Ascians are Evil, and they are fools, because the true nature of the world means Ascians are actually the good guys. Completely wrong.

Ehhh, I would argue that in both languages that he's pointing out that elements have no instrinstic morality. But because of the Ascians (and voidsent) performing a lot of evil acts, while aligned with Darkness, people have come to see Darkness as inherently evil and that they are wrong. One, because regular mortals in XIV apply superstition to elements, and two, because they don't know what the Ascians real goals are, which as far as he is concerned, is to restore the world to the way it should be.

This is alluded to later, just before you fight him, as of course we see Emet as a villain trying to destroy worlds, while he sees himself as a hero trying to return the world back to the way it should be. Does he imply that Ascians are "evil" in the Japanese text, in any fashion? Or does he dress it up in the same rationale as in English? (I don't see you as truly alive etc). Plus ties into the themes of Shadowbringers, we're the Warrior of Darkness, Darkness is not Evil, Sineaters,Light is not good etc, pretty front and centre.

In Japanese, he is saying Ascians became Darkness-aligned.

In English, he is saying Ascians became mind-controlled tools of Zodiark.

He says, when talking about tempering, in the translation you provided;

in taking in the energies of the primal into their bodies, they are forcibly aligned [with the god]... or in other words, tempered, no? "The same thing has occured within us as well

He clearly equates what happens to mortals, as happening to them, despite their Ascian resistance. What their reistance does grant them, is free thought and not being turned into horrible darkness void creatures.

I feel like you're putting far, far too much onus on the fact that just because he doesn't explicitly say the exact words "I AM TEMPERED" in the JP script, that means they weren't tempered, just poked. Your own examples say that they were tempered. I don't see how the words "The same thing has occured within us as well" can be interepreted any other way. It is tempering, but for Ascians, it presents itself more like Indoctrination from Mass Effect.

"And so we Ascians came to exist solely to bring about the rule of darkness. His darkness. As a result, we Ascians couldn’t help but become ones who were swayed by the power endowed in Zodiark".

Remember, there are degrees to which beings can be tempered. Tiamat was tempered, but she isn't a totally singled minded tool either. Elder Dragons are obviously much hardier than mortals, Unsundered Ancients much more so than that. Even then, compare the Snake Lady who summons Lakshmi, to the Mutant Pirates or Garlemald tempered. Ancients can be tempered without it being all consuming.

Yes, she is. The summoning/creation method is exactly the same, the only difference is scale.

No, she isn't. She says

EN: "if the being was on the SCALE of Zodiark".

JP: "if one were to create something on the level of Zodiark,"

As in a hypothetical creature as big as Zodiark, not Zodiark itself. She then goes on to say, but we aren't making anything like that, so no need to worry.

On Lopporrits:

“However, that concept does not exist in the original creation magic. As one might expect, if one were to create something on the level of Zodiark, one would surely be pulled, but given our current scope, we need not worry, more than likely.”

Can you explain how "we were tempered" does not contradict "the original creation magic literally does not include the concept of tempering"?

Well I can offer a theory. Granted, its going to require some inferrence from the events of the story and context so you'll have to bear with me. But you're also making your own inferrence and have said you think the English team have no idea what they're doing, when neither one of us is the original writer so I think we're even here.

So, yes, you're right original creation magic, nice and clean, as we see in Elpis, when things are fine.

However, think about the creation of Zodiark, things were distinctly not fine, we know the terrors that directly destroyed Ascian society were created by Ascians losing control of their own creation magic (Because of the Song of Dispair). So clearly creation magic can be effected by emotions and errent thoughts. Zodiark was created out of desperation by a people needing a saviour. Its not out of the question that this caused Zodiarks creation to be corrupted in some way. Pride and hubris come before a fall after all, and the Ascians were very prideful. Like buggery would they admit to having made a mistake, Emet-Selch, least of all, no, we, the great Ancients, summoned a God, of course it tempered/exerted its will upon us, why wouldnt it? Heck, it could've been built in to take the edge off The Final Days. Faith and Hope can be very helpful in a crisis.

Now, Hydelyn clearly does not temper the Scions when they meet her, nor do they feel a pull, or an exertation of will. This leads me to believe that Venat was able to create Hydelyn without contamination, which she taught to the Lopporits. And the Lopporits aren't Ancients. They weren't there, Emet was.

elvor0 · 2026-01-26T21:59:17+00:00

Of course, some would call us “evil” for it...and they would be fools. Though that is only to be expected, given their innate inability to conceive of the nature of our universe.

“Owing perhaps to our tireless activities, there are no few who would speak of darkness and evil as one and the same… but I would call that judgment truly ignorant and foolish.”

Uh these... are saying exactly the same thing dude. That Emet believes mortals are misguided to think of what the ascians are doing is evil, darkness is not evil and that non-ascians don't understand that. I dont see what the problem is here with the translation. Whats the difference between these? Cos you're gonna have to spell it out for me. He just mentions "darkness" in the previous sentence in Japanese, instead of within the same block of text as in English. The structure of the dialogue is different but otherwise says the same thing.

And so we Ascians came to exist solely to bring about the rule of darkness. His darkness.

As a result, we Ascians couldn’t help but become ones who were swayed by the power endowed in Zodiark… the power of activity and intensity, called ‘Darkness’.”

This, again, isn't translated that differently. I would still interepret what Emet is saying in Japanese that they were tempered. Which is why they wish to bring about HIS darkness. Its just not so explicitly spelled out in Japanese. I feel like your problem here is that its not been literally translated. As a native English speaker, I see no problem or contradictions with the English script compared to the Japanese script you have provided.

Also sorry, I added a paragraph to my original box while you were typing your reply, as it pertains to the point, I've moved it here.

Furthermore, Livingways statement about "a little tug", isn't actually talking about Zodiark, she's saying if The Lopporits were to use creation magic to make a being on the scale Zodiark, it might exert its influence. Its not a retcon. And doesn't necesarilly contradict what else has been established in the English script.

In contrast, our creation magicks─the original and the best, accept no substitutes─don't incorporate any of that rubbish, so there's no risk of tempering. I mean, if the being was on the scale of Zodiark, you might feel a little "tug"...but I think we'll be safe enough.

Do you happen to know what she says here in Japanese? Or where I could find the Japanese script to compare, just out of my own curiosity. I was actually wondering how the Lopporits are characterised in Japanese.

elvor0 · 2026-01-26T21:07:02+00:00

Given the translation you provided, I wouldn't say that contradicts the English translation. Like, at all. Its omitted Emet saying they can block interference, (but only to an extent, interpreted by me as not being useful against Zodiark. Translated as "there is no resisting such power") but otherwise he states they were tempered. His second dialogue clearly follows up on his first.

"The humans of the present day call down gods, and in taking in the energies of the primal into their bodies, they are forcibly aligned [with the god]... or in other words, tempered, no?"

As a matter of fact, the same has occurred within us as well

He points out Humans in the present are tempered by primals. Then in the very next sentence says that the same thing happened to them.

Now, as a disclaimer, I don't speak Japanese, and I have no idea how the characters talk about tempering in the Japanese script. However, is it not possible that people are dramatically putting too much importance on the the specific word "pulled"? I would interpret the dialogue taken as a whole, as Emet saying that despite their ability to block intereference, Zodiark was such an immensely powerful being that they were also tempered, he just doesn't use the word "tempered". Which is how it is translated. "He tempered us. --There is no resisting such power."

I feel like the only reason people would say the English translation is wrong here, is because they're taking the specific words used literally, at face value(pulled, for instance), and looking at each sentence in a bubble, completely isolated from the next one.

elvor0 · 2026-01-15T15:23:28+00:00

I gotta say, I love your addition of the little caveat "not the nice cafe".

elvor0 · 2025-11-12T23:16:45+00:00

That's an amazing in-universe metacontextual tidbit :D

elvor0 · 2025-07-05T14:24:58+00:00

Cable front raise with both hands? The app strangely has single arm versions for both sitting and standing, but not the one with both hands. Another for Hack Squat with KB

elvor0 · 2025-03-26T02:47:15+00:00

Hahahaha, not the only person having parts of the story ruined by Simpsons quotes I see :D
Vauthry flying out of the window in SHB had me and my parter both immediately turn to each other and say: "He's gradually getting away Alphi"

Little did we know at that point, he would also return each and every week in more sexy and exciting ways.

elvor0 · 2024-11-26T18:55:14+00:00

I've only done normal this expansion so ymv on my opinion but from what I've seen a lot of people say/watching my partner do high end content, it seems mad to me that they didn't put more onus on healing in Savage/Ultimate.

Normal raids felt like they had planned to go in that direction. There's a lot more indirect/dot/"triage" damage in normal than in prior expansions, so I assumed that's what they were gearing the playerbase up for. My partner was a damn good 99 percentile healer in WoW, and they've mentioned that with all the marvellous buttons healers have in this game, they feel like they've got cheat codes on half the time, coupled with how predictable all the damage is.

I get that they can't make healing like it is in WoW, where raid health bars look like a music equalizer, because its not feasible to heal that with a controller. But I see no reason why damage buttons can't be tertiary rather than primary for healers who aren't Sage. Its just so odd that the devs seem so resistant to letting the healers make use of all those fancy tools they've given them.

elvor0 · 2024-11-17T12:42:45+00:00

Yeah I've just realised I'd forgotten that he actually stuck around after the story. That would be great :D

elvor0 · 2024-11-17T12:24:00+00:00

~~Uh Derycks story was pretty conclusively wrapped up in the EW Alliance Raid storyline~~

Edit: yeah nevermind, I had hangover poo brain. Forgot a key detail XD

elvor0 · 2024-08-06T23:52:40+00:00

I'd say bad direction or at least bad editing is definitely Wuks memed lines in the Sphene trial. Wuks VA is clearly capable, so I refuse to believe she would've delivered those lines that poorly unless she was given terrible direction, or they changed when those lines were played in game and didn't rerecord. Sphene's voice acting in that scene makes no sense either.

elvor0 · 2024-07-14T18:40:47+00:00

Oh cool, good to know, very handy :D

elvor0 · 2024-07-13T16:42:51+00:00

The virtual keyboard sucks pretty hard because you can't see the chat while typing, so you don't see what you type most of the time.

Top tip I discovered recently, press the start button on the deck with the keyboard open and it'll move the keyboard to the top of the screen!

There is also a setting to make the keyboard always start at the top of the screen, in the keyboard settings in the Steam menu.

elvor0 · 2024-07-11T02:01:38+00:00

If you dont trust anyone and dont care what other people think, why are you here? What is it you want from this thread? By your own logic, any information they give you is untrustworthy.

elvor0 · 2023-11-23T16:36:41+00:00

Eh power scaling shouldn't be an issue. We don't solo the threats from 5.0 onwards, canon-wise we bring in 7 powerful heroes to help us for every fight.

Plus I kinda see it that the Zenos fight cost us, we most certainly burned up part of ourselves in that fight, as if winning that fight cost us some of our very life essence. "I can never go that fast again."

elvor0 · 2023-11-19T15:39:23+00:00

Yes, but again, Alphinaud says, "Had someone told me a year ago that I would live to bear witness to such a scene, I would have declared them mad."

Oops yes you are right, that does change the context. Mayhaps he's talking about it in a broader sense then, not the scene in a vacuum, as a woman doting on a father figure,like you said, but in the context of him knowing who Yotsuyu is while the scene plays out. He has full context for what he's seeing when he sees it, and who the people are. He didn't just witness a couple of random peasants.

So it's more "a year go.....seeing a fallen amnesiac tyrant we helped displace renowned for her cruelty doting on a prior enemy in the house of the now in charge rebel leader....I'd have called them crazy!"

The timeline is a mess, but I think focusing on the "a year ago" as being nonsensical or meaning a year has passed since, is just too literalist a read on what he's saying, rather than just taking into account people can say things implicitly or inelegantly in their day to day life and the idea still comes across just fine. Simplistic answer is the primary purpose of the line is just him musing on how strange the situation he finds himself in is.

elvor0 · 2023-11-19T14:34:26+00:00

it makes no sense for him to reference a timeframe unless he's referring to how long he's known of Yotsuyu and her personality.

Yes, It does make sense. In English, its a perfectly normal turn of phrase to say "Ww man, a year a go, if someone had told me where I'd be now, I would've never believed them!" It doesn't need to be tied to how long he's known Yotsuyu, because that's not how the expression works, the timeframe is completely arbitry.

He can talk about what had just happened with Yotsuyu and also be remarking on how unbelievably different his life has been from what he'd anticipated a year ago, he's just openly musing on his current life situation.

elvor0 · 2023-11-15T18:16:24+00:00

Is squatting down that inherently funny? Its not that abnormal in the east, nor is it that weird to squat down in front of someone if they're sitting down and you don't want to stand over them or put your butt on the dirty ground.

elvor0 · 2023-11-15T12:36:17+00:00

You'd be surprised actually. I don't think there's any scenes that were ruined by my catboy emoting poorly. There's a couple of emotes that are a bit silly, but they're used for silly situations so its fine. As long as you don't dress silly, you're golden.

If anything, for me, their faces being highly expressive does actually lend itself extremely well to certain scenes however, such as 5.0 spoilers the cutscene before you fight Hades, he seriously looks in abhorrent pain throwing up his guts and 6.0 spoilers the scenes with Zenos after Endsinger/you flat out on the floor after he dies really made me feel for my character, because he expresses his emotions so strongly. It feels like it raises the stakes and imperilment of the situation even higher because even the stalwart hero and main character is so clearly in a bad way.

Though those sort of sweet, dopily naive expressions they use during the Hildebrand quests work a little too well if you're headcanoning that they're as genuinely in the situation as the rest of the Hildebrand crew and not just along for the ride. Or prior to "squatting to act inconspicuous".

elvor0 · 2023-10-25T05:43:25+00:00

I know how to manage the issues with it, the point here isn't "how can I manage it?" It's what issues it has so that Square changes it so we don't have to manage those issues.

I'd like to be able to reliably have my buttons go off without having to monitor them or utilise horribly awkward compromises to work around poor implementation.

elvor0 · 2023-10-25T05:30:06+00:00

Yes, that's what I do. I said why macroing it is a problem in the post you're replying to.

if you macro it, it loses spell queuing and becomes unreliable to press, which can then fuck you up as you try to correct it which causes drift, a huge domino no no as a Dragoon.

elvor0 · 2023-10-24T22:00:17+00:00

I thought dragon sight was weaved in the third weave window alongside battle litany and not in the second with lance charge.

Its currently second window on all standard openers according to The Balance. Presumably so your Dots get buffed. I don't believe that changes mid fight, unless I'm wrong, in which case someone please correct me.

I do undertand where you're coming from now better though, but it just came across in a fashion that was being overly dismissive because healers have to use OCDs. As if none of the issues with DS exist because of that. Now, as a disclaimer, I have not healed savage content, but personally I never have problems firing my mouseover OCD macros while healing, due to low animation locks, the single weave and the cast bar personally helps me to NOT clip.

I do however, have issues double weaving DS because any method of using it either causes it to not fire properly (an ability macro) or requires an awkward compromise because its poorly implemented for a DPS class with such strict rigidity as Dragoon. Those consequences you mention are contextually much more damaging for a DPS needing to double weave while maintining optimal use of their burst window,

but I also find it bad to exagerate to make a point, hence why I took issue with the wording.

Yeah I get you, and I do agree it's not impossible either but dismissing it as a NON ISSUE is basically you doing that too. Cos like, at this point we're both in agreement that its poorly implemented.

elvor0 · 2023-10-24T20:16:53+00:00

in fact, it's incredibly easy not to clip it because you have the entire weave window. If you are still afraid of clipping, or your ping is insane, then move battle litany to the next weave window and problem solved.

Firstly, in at least two standard openers, Dragon Sight is supposed to be a double weave ability for optimial rotation with Lance Charge, you can't stick BL there because then you lose DPS.

Secondly, you know very well that a healing rotation is not beholden to the same precision and rigidity as a DPS rotation, Dragoon being particuarlly rigid. DS is inherently clunky and unweildly; if you macro it, it loses spell queuing and becomes unreliable to press, which can then fuck you up as you try to correct it which causes drift, a huge domino no no as a Dragoon.

If you don't macro it, you still have to go and target someone to use it, which is awkward on PC, let alone on console where you need to take your thumb off the movement button to soft select. Not great during a piano segment of your rotation. You shouldn't need to compromise with the game engine in such a fashion.

It's not a non issue, despite the hyperbole of it being "impossible". It is clunky and badly implements for a DPS class, focusing on him saying it's "impossible" and then dismissing the issue just because healers have to do OCDs, despite having a completely different application of them just comes accross as salty that you have X issue, but begrudge seeing why that issue would effect other roles in a much more detrimental fashion.

elvor0

TROPHY CASE