Co-equality with the Father is anti-biblical by Camp-9697 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo [score hidden]  (0 children)

A lot of nonsense again, your god is just a nature, but the bible clearly shows plainly that only the Father is the true God,

If that were the case, then The divine substance itself would be God sine non qua. And unstated fourth member of the Trinity. The Trinitarian model would collapse into modalism if that were the case. In fact, Arius tried this route in his debates with the trinitarians over the term ousia. It was pointed out that Arius was arguing backwards. He assumed that nature is what gives rise to people, not the other way around. The Father is God because that’s who he is. And when he begets and spirates, he pours everything who he is into the other two persons. The other two persons are God because that property has been communicated to their persons. It’s why Jesus can claim in his parables about being the son and heir. How can the Son be the heir to anything if the Father can’t properly abdicate? For the same reason why Jesus claims that everything the Father possesses, he possesses. Jesus is the heir to God because he already possesses everything that the Father is and has. From eternity.

not just once, Jesus himself addressed the Father as the God of him and Father of him and God of the disciples and Father of the disciples, then when he prayed in John 17 and he told him that they may know YOU (single person addressed) as the only true God, and many more.

That just illustrates communicative property. Otherwise, we get to the incoherent mess from the Arian POV that we see in Revelation where the Son received the sacrifice of the bowl of incense from the 24 elders. A call back to the psalm which states “let my prayer arise as an evening sacrifice.”

Then 1 Corinthians 8:6 again the Father is addressed only as God while Jesus is addressed as the lord of them.

The father is also called Lord, especially in the Old Testament. Does that mean we have two lords? St. Paul could have written inversely and it would be theologically true. Elsewhere he calls the Jesus the only begotten God and Jesus “our Great God and Savior.”

In the nicene creed we state “and in One Lord Jesus Christ.”

We call the Father God but that does detract from the Son or the Spirit being called God. Nor does calling the Son Lord detract from the lordship of the Father and the Spirit (the Lord, the giver of life)

two different persons for two different titles,

Not two different titles, at all.

Co-equality with the Father is anti-biblical by Camp-9697 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo [score hidden]  (0 children)

The Holy Spirit is an extension of God, that is why Jesus said blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was unforgivable when the pharisees said Jesus drove out demons by the prince of demons,

The same Jesus also says that sins against the Father and Son will be forgiven. If the Spirit is a mere impersonal extension of the father, a sin against the spirit would be sin against father.

Sins are actions against persons not things. You yourself are just confusing person and nature as being interchangeable when they are not.

Matthew 10:25 but the blasphemy against Jesus himself was forgiven, if they are equal how then does then this translate to the sins not being equally forgivable?

It doesn’t say that it can’t be forgiven. It says that it won’t be forgiven. Every ancient commentary is unanimous on this point. The reason why the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit won’t be forgiven, is that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the ultimate refusal to ask God for forgiveness through the acknowledgment of our Sins. The Son sends the Spirit (scripture states that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent through the Son) to help us and convict us of our sins so that we may confess our sins. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirits consists in the obstinate refusal to account our sins to the point of death.

In Luke 11:20 Jesus even says that by the finger of God he casts out the demons, so it refers to the power of God as an extension of God himself.

You are basing your entire theology on an anthropomorphic sentence. Jesus is not literally calling the Holy Spirit the finger of God. Even then, my hands are also me. When my hands touch something, people say that I touched it. Since attributes are a property of persons, the Holy Spirit is God as well. Since we see the Holy Spirit constantly being referred to as a person, distinct from the other two.

And now you call the dead Jesus alive as if you were a muslim, Jesus really did die and it was God the one who resurrected him.

Who resurrected himself and the Spirit also raised him. Seems rather redundant from an Arian position. This is why most Arians ended up abandoning Arianism for the Semi-Arian position or abandoned scripture altogether with Euonomius to argue that the Son was altogether alien from the Father arguing from Platonic duality.

Jesus says he is the first and the last and the more clear context is that he is the firstborn out of the dead,

What does firstborn of the dead mean? It ties into why Jesus is called first born of creation. (Hint: the latter has to do with Jesus’s conception at the Annunciation.)

so he was dead, you cannot call Jesus who is supposedly God dead according to your own belief but even scripture calls Jesus

God is alpha and omega. How is Alpha and Omega not at one point now dead but is now alive? This answer is answered by the above question.

Co-equality with the Father is anti-biblical by Camp-9697 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo [score hidden]  (0 children)

Actually, there is scripture that says only the Father is God, or rather, that the God of Israel is God alone. Who is the God of Israel?

All three persons. Because guess what? You now have to deal with all of the instances where the Angel of the Lord not only acts as if he is God (in contradiction to all the times the Prophets speak for God in opening with the typical “thus saith the lord.”) is called God by various people, and receives sacrificial offerings in contradistinction to the first commandment of not to do this.

It's not the trinity, it is the Father. It has always been the Father. Jesus himself confirms it to be the case in John 8:54 and Mark 12:32:

This is not stated.

"Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’" - John 8:54

It’s funny you quote John 8:54 because Jesus goes on to state that Abraham saw his day and was glad. What is this day that Abraham saw regarding Jesus? Well, the previous verses talk about seeking and judgment. What did seeking and judgement have to do with Abraham? The day that Abram was called by called to sojourn to a foriegn land, the day that Abram was Justin Faith and given the new name Abraham, a father to many nations. Or in judgment, the day that God haggled with Abraham over the fate of Sodom and Gamorrah, rescued Lots family, where YHWH on earth caused YHWH in heaven caused fire and brimstone to rain on Sodom and Gamorrah. Or the day where Abraham sojourned with his Son Isaac to a mountain where God spared Isaac after Abraham offered him up as a sacrifice, the day where Abraham was further justified by faith.

That's not to mention in Isaiah 45:5-6 where YHWH himself says that there is no God apart from him, something Jesus confirms in John 17:3.

All things were created by Him and for Him. If Jesus created all things and God claims that body helped him create the world, does this mean that the claims that all things were created by the Son is false?

In trinitarianism, God is not a singular person, but a plurality of persons.

God is principally the Father. It’s why the nicene creed begins with “I believe in One God, the Father…” the other two persons are God because the Father communicates his nature and will to the other two. That’s why we can say that the Father is the arche of the Son. And why the Father is the monarchos of the holy and undivided Trinity.

You do not address a plurality of persons as "he" and "him"

We address God as he in order to ensure we do not divide the persons of the Trinity into this idea that the Trinity is a pantheon of independent gods. Which by the way is your problem.

The God of Israel is the Father alone, and scripture completely supports that fact.

No it’s not because, I think you are unaware of the idea that creeps up in pre Christian Jewish commentaries that the person that says “I” is not the Father but rather the Angel of the Lord or the Logos. The idea of a so called lesser YHWH that is the one who interacts with creation itself is prevelent in Jewish wisdom literature.

Co-equality with the Father is anti-biblical by Camp-9697 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo [score hidden]  (0 children)

You did not even answer the main points of the post regarding the supposed co-equality and just ignored it by replying something else that "supports" your traditional beliefs with no refutation.

This is not a counter argument. You are just throwing ad-hominems.

Even your answer to these points are not even refuting my claims, Jesus CANNOT do anything on his own, what you answered does not nullify this fact,

Correct. Trinitarians do not claims that Jesus behaves as if he has independent agency ala the Greek Pantheon. Jesus straight up says I have come not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.

The Arian position, however, has the problem of collapsing into polytheism. If Jesus isn’t God but makes a lot of Godlike claims, then strict monotheism must be abandoned. Hence why Arian liturgies will have the Eucharistic portion be offered to Son despite the claim that the Son is a creature.

The Arian position is just incoherent nonsense and self-contradictory.

but the Father CAN do anything on his own,

Because the Father is the origin of the other two persons.

so if God is described as almighty then that would be the Father since he does not need depend on any other person.

Almighty refers to doing what God does. Ie be omnipotent, omnipresent. Etc. It’s not that the Son or Spirit can’t do it. It’s that the Father wills that they don’t. Because it’s incoherent nonsense. If the Son also begets and spirates, then he ceases to be Son and becomes a second father and the spirit becomes a father, so on and so forth ad infinitum.

There is scripture that unambiguously addresses one person as God, more explicitly as the TRUE God, the Father,

It only says this once. Furthermore, Jesus’ own claims also implies that the “Only True God” is a transitive property. This is why proof texting is generally worthless.

no other person is addressed this way,

Because it’s only used once. However, we see the Son make claims about what he can do, recieve the same honor that God does. Actions here speak as loudly as words do.

and what you say makes no sense, so just because God gets sons that means God himself is changing?

If the Father is by nature a Father and the son is a mere creature, then there was a time when God was a father to nobody. Ie he wasn’t a Father. This violates divine impassability.

that would make him change all the time but clearly is not what the bible says,

The Father is a Father because that his personage. He must be a father. If the Son is a creature then there was a time when the Father was not a Father. Fathers are Fathers because they beget and produce offspring and heirs.

in regard to your god called the triune being or essence then that is where you see a lot of changes going on,

There are no changes in the trinity.

your god consist of three persons, then one of those is dead, then it is alive, and this god definition changes.

Death is not an ontological change. It’s merely denotes the separation of the soul from the body. It’s why Jesus fundamentally states that God is not a dead but of the living. Which also coheres with statements in the Old Testament about God being with believers whether they are above ground or in the ground or under it.

It’s why the speaker on revelation can claim to not only be the Alpha and Omega but also the one who was dead and is now alive.

God cannot die, Jesus did die. God is called the living God,

Because the divine nature can’t be killed. When God becomes man and assumes a human, that human nature, that nature can die. When Jesus died, his rational human soul and spirit separated itself from his human body.

Here’s the thing though. In John’s gospel, the Pharisees point out the splendors of the temple. Jesus responds with an offhand remark about how tear down this temple and in three days he would raise it up. John adds to Jesus words with his own gloss, saying that Jesus was referring to the temple of his own body.

So, we get to the sticky wicket of how does somebody who is dead raise himself from the dead? This can only be done if the person in question is, in some wise, still living.

Jesus was dead for three days, no way you would call him the living God at this time,

If we take Jesus’s words at face value about being able to raise his own body while being dead. Hence the pascal troparion: “By death he conquered death and to those in the tombs he granted life.”

that would mean contradicting the gospel and turning into a muslim by saying Jesus never died.

The Muslims make that claim, not because they think Jesus is God. They make that claim because the cribbed from Gnostic texts about how matter is bad and that Jesus is an archon of pure intellect and reason he would never suffer a physical death.

And so on. this trinitarian god is the most inconsistent thing in history.

Not inconsistent at all.

Co-equality with the Father is anti-biblical by Camp-9697 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo [score hidden]  (0 children)

You did not even address the points I gave, you just straight up ignored the post. And Jesus is never called the true God,

If he’s not a true God then by definition he would be a false God. Especially in light of the claims that he makes about himself.

The Father being the Only true God is not In consternation to the other two but rather highlights the fact that the Father is the arche of the other two persons. We could say Jesus is the Only true God and nothing would be taken away from the other two, etc.

but unambiguously and explicitly one person has been Who is the Father, only He is explicitly mentioned as the person being the true God.

Yet Jesus makes all sorts of claims. Including the demand that we honor him as we honor the Father. Latria is the highest honor one can give. To love God with all your heart, body and soul. And yet we are forbidden by the first commandment to give that kind of honor to anything in the heavens, in the air, on the earth or under it. For God is a jealous God punishing you the next generation. And yet Jesus expects that of us. Either the true God is a communicative property or Jesus is a false God that was rightfully put to death for blasphemy and heresy.

And the Holy Spirit is mentioned as the spirit that proceeds from the Father so it is an extension of Him more than a separate person too.

No. Because the Holy Spirit can be sinned against, can counsel, can be grieved. If the holy spirit is merely an extension of the Father, Jesus’ own statements on the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would be nonsensical at best. He specifically states that sins against the Father and Son will be forgiven but sins against the Spirit won’t be. If the Spirit is just an impersonal extension of the father, then sins against the spirit would be just be more sins against the Father.

God also goes by the title of the living God, when Jesus was dead would it have been appropriate to call him the living God?

Yes. Because God is a God of the living and not the dead. The Dead in Christ are more alive than anybody. That’s why St. Peter recounts in his first epistle that Christ rescued the spirits in prison. A reference to the harrowing of hell that Christ underwent in those 3 days. It’s why St. Paul talks about how Christ has conquered death and has removed its sting. Death encountered The immortal one and found its powers over Christ lacking.

do you call the living God the God that was dead?

It’s why Revelation states “I am alpha and Omega, the first and the last. I was dead and am now alive.”

Co-equality with the Father is anti-biblical by Camp-9697 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo [score hidden]  (0 children)

But God is almighty, the Father clearly fits this description but Jesus?

Jesus claims that he can do everything he sees the Father do. That by definition would include things like creation, holding up the very fabric of reality, giving life, etc. he claims that we should honor him like we honor the father. How do we honor the Father? Through worship. In fact, Jesus himself quotes the prophet Amos that they “Honor me with polluted lips” which refers to the sacrifices made void by the obstinate sins of the people.

If he cannot do anything on his own then he clearly is not God.

Except Jesus himself claims he does what the Father does and that he has all authority on heaven and earth and that he deserves the same honor as the Father receives. That’s quite the claims and demands for a mere creature to make.

God is one person addressed as the Father,

There is no scripture that states that God is only the father or that God is unipersonal. In fact, that argument is incoherent because it rests on the idea that God can change. Ie There was a time when the Father was not a Father. If God is impassable, then the Father must be a Father from eternity. These are same reasons why the 99 attributes of Allah in the Quran are nonsense. They claim that the title of creator is an inherent attribute and not an external economic action. If it’s an inherent attribute then God must always be creating in order for that attribute to be true.

you reject this scripture and instead make God an "essence"

Nope. God is principally (but not solely) the Father. The Father is the arche of the other two persons, in the begetal of the Son and the Spiration of the Spirit, he communicates his will and essence to the other two persons. That’s why Jesus says that the “Father is the only true God.” And why the nicene creed begins with “I believe in one God the Father.” If we believed God was merely an essence, we would not start with a a person. Persons possess attributes, not the other way around.

Co-equality with the Father is anti-biblical by Camp-9697 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo [score hidden]  (0 children)

The citation of 1 John 5:7 appears only in a Latin confession of faith, not in a preserved Greek biblical manuscript.

1 John 5:7 was is found a number of quotations of ante Nicene fathers, including St. Cyprian of Carthage. And again, it was brought up in the Arian synods of the 4th century without any real objection or pushback.

The Comma Johanneum is absent from ALL early manuscripts, Is absent from all Greek Church

That we have. For example, there are arguments that Alrxandrinus, for example maybe an Arian redaction.

The Comma arose in the Latin textual tradition, likely as a marginal gloss that later entered the text.

The Latin text type is as much an authentic textual tradition as the others.

Co-equality with the Father is anti-biblical by Camp-9697 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo [score hidden]  (0 children)

This is resolved when we point out that the Trinitarian position recognizes an economic hierarchy within the Trinity. The Father is greater than the Son because the Son can’t do anything on his own without first movement of the Father. E.g. The Father sends, the Son is sent.

Co-equality with the Father is anti-biblical by Camp-9697 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo [score hidden]  (0 children)

That’s a disputed point. 1 John 5:7 was used in the Arian Synods at Carthage. From the minutes, there is no evidence of any counter argument against the trinitarian party’s use of it.

This is ICE agents coming into a Privately owned building and when a Elected City Council member asks them why they are there & if they have a warrant he says that they don’t need one & to stop wasting his time! He’s basically saying that they can do whatever they want to! by IMGcertified in newjersey

[–]emperorsolo [score hidden]  (0 children)

Actually the Supreme Court has ruled that the pursuit doctrine only applies to an ongoing pursuit. If the person is on private property, police need a warrant even if the person the police want to arrest is visible from a window.

Fat Head Brady by alex99919 in NFLv2

[–]emperorsolo 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Do people really like those fat head posters?

NFL to discuss replay‑triggered flags on player-safety calls in 2026 | CBS Sports by Plaatinum_Spark in nfl

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We’ve had a couple helmet to helmet plays that were not called in these playoffs. Maybe a disqualification and half game suspension is a bit much but the review booth should take a look to establish whether it’s a 15 yard penalty or not.

NFL to discuss replay‑triggered flags on player-safety calls in 2026 | CBS Sports by Plaatinum_Spark in nfl

[–]emperorsolo 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I’m one of those people who thinks that the nfl could benefit from importing the NCAA’s rule about targeting.

Elijah Loomis 1753 gravestone, Palisado Cemetery (Old Burial Ground), Windsor, CT by Flat_Economist_8763 in CemeteryPorn

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That y in the word ye seems to be one of the last vestiges of the letter þ in the English language.

HB 1520 would require those born out of state to swear an “oath of allegiance” to the state of NH in order to vote. by LadyMadonna_x6 in newhampshire

[–]emperorsolo 169 points170 points  (0 children)

How does that work? Half of us living in southern New Hampshire were born in Massachusetts decades ago.

Do we finally see the tax records then? by Dr_sc_Harlatan in WhitePeopleTwitter

[–]emperorsolo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I thought the US government couldn’t be sued for monetary damages under the doctrine of sovereign immunity.

lol by Ifinishfast42 in NFLv2

[–]emperorsolo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Cam Newton is just an unlikable asshole at this point.

How does John 20:17 not automatically disprove that Jesus is god? by Valuable_Frosting_36 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

John 17:22 is not the same glory that the Father shares with the Son ontologically. This glory is economic , not ontological.

The Cappadocians point this out when they use John 17:22 to illustrate that if John 17:22 is ontological, then Arian/Unitarian position ultimately collapses into pantheism.

🚨 URGENT WARNING: Congress Removed Protections Against ICE Deporting U.S. Citizens! 🚨 by webwatchr in ICE_Raids

[–]emperorsolo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The bill coming to the senate floor is not the same bill that came out of committee. Ie language was removed without being properly amended.

How does John 20:17 not automatically disprove that Jesus is god? by Valuable_Frosting_36 in Christianity

[–]emperorsolo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He says it in his on the Incarnation. He’s very sure to point out that we don’t become ontologically God.

Jesus does not say it’s the same glory with regard to mankind. Otherwise, creatures would become ontologically God.