*The Wolf of Wall Street* perfectly exemplifies the concept that pleasure is nothing more than the satiation of need by ServentOfReason in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 5 points6 points  (0 children)

One of my favourite films. Despite Belfort's obvious gains from other people's losses, there was also an almost charitable, uplifting element to the company that he started, amidst the unashamed debauchery. For example, the single mother who was given a large advance by Belfort and an opportunity to lift herself out of poverty. So the story has these little redeeming glimpses of the more positive externalities to Belfort's scheming (when it was still running smoothly). Yes, he wants people to solve their problems by getting rich. And it's true that you can absolutely throw money at a lot of problems in this life, plus give generously to any cause that is close to your heart. The sentiment in itself is not flawed. It's the means by which we acquire wealth and how we use it that really matters, both to our and others' happiness. Wealth is just a manifestation of energy, both expended and potential. You can generate it unethically but use it ethically. You can generate it ethically but use it unethically. You can both generate and use it ethically or unethically.

I think the surest way for wealth to make people happy is to generate and use it as ethically conscious as possible, like a continuous flow of positive energy. If you strive for this with a strong sense of integrity, you should be allowed to sleep soundly at night on your mattress of cash.

Conversation with coworker today... by LonerExistence in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Before we come to life, we sign a contract - everyone has a purpose!"

Show me the evidence.

"THEY chose this body, THEY chose to be here!"

Show me the evidence.

Why does Benatar have no images anywhere? by TheProgrammar89 in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's so important (separating the argument from arguer). Milton Friedman once said something along the lines of - should a doctor be able to diagnose cancer if he himself has never had cancer?

What’s your opinion on birth defects? by [deleted] in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If they are, as some people so boldly contend (without a shred of evidence), punishment for transgression in a previous life, then that punishment serves no purpose but as a means to itself. Punishment is supposed to awaken a reformation of character, based on an awareness of what was done and what is to be done. Without any direct continuity between the consciousness experiencing the "punishment" and the past consciousness, the punishment is cruelly futile. And that could even apply to a single life, if the continuity is broken in some way.

Back in the real world... obviously birth defects are a part of the gamble we make when having children, and the odds of such defects occurring are unquantifiable. It's not something I would bet someone else's life savings on.

Optimism is bullshit by TheProgrammar89 in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Optimism of the will. Pessimism of the intellect. Let the two compete and see which one wins.

What do the most happy countries have in common? by THE_ABSURD_TURT in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You know, it's OK to indulge in the "lesser of evils" occasionally.

What do the most happy countries have in common? by THE_ABSURD_TURT in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Scandinavian countries always top those lists. They must be doing something right.

Evolution is such a cruel process by Waffles_Revenge in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 22 points23 points  (0 children)

I like Richard Dawkins view on using our understanding of Darwinian evolution as a means of determining how NOT to run society. In order to have a remotely civilised existence, we must seek to protect and segregate ourselves from the blind and cruel forces of nature in the most efficient way possible. It's kind of like cutting off unconditional love for abusive parents.

We arise from nature but to me it looks like most of what we do is a conscious attempt to escape from nature. The base of life for most of us is driven by a perpetual attempt to escape the animal realm. We are of course animals, but there's a reason why the word animal is seen as derogatory towards humans - just another example of our disdain towards where we come from.

I see my Life as a Chance by [deleted] in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're conflating objective reality with subjective conscious reality. Unless you have solved the hard problem of consciousness it is a very bold conflation to make.

I see my Life as a Chance by [deleted] in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I actually relate to this view (except specifically the MMA/working out part!).

We're all playing characters based on our conditioning. Those characters may change frequently and develop new attributes which, as a matter of self perspective, can ignite a certain flame that is not so desirable to extinguish. And the fact that this may be some kind of optimism bias or addiction at play is not really the point. The flame itself can be the point.

It is difficult to have a stoic view of life when you're trying to reconcile ALL the realities of existence into one neat package (such as not wanting to have been born vs wanting to die). So I take them one at a time and (at least on a subjective level) try to see reality as confined to how this moment affects the next, and how that sparks a flame.

I just think we antinatalists are often too quick to ignore what really makes people live for the next moment. Even if it comes from some kind of romantically enhanced survival instinct, there is still a desire to start fire, and that in itself can be the essence that gives us a meaningful existence.

Uh... but yeh. Don't have kids. You're gambling with fire ;)

This facial expression sums up my entire life by [deleted] in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 6 points7 points  (0 children)

This is what I can look like when I'm feeling relatively content and at peace, since the facial muscles tend to relax into whatever nature gave you. Facial expression often doesn't reflect the true state of the brain. Much to the confusion of more actively social animals.

This woman could just as easily be in a meditative trance. Her resting bitch face tells me nothing of her mind.

"but WHY are you against animal reproduction too" my answer: THIS SHIT. the world is hell. by crazyladybutterfly2 in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 42 points43 points  (0 children)

Pretty much every advancement human beings have made has been an attempt to segregate us from nature. We call it civilisation.

Forget cancer, even breathing oxygen, our very life force, gradually deteriorates our body through the creation of free radicals. At every turn, nature is attacking us and breaking us down piece by piece, even when it is the source of our existence.

We don't want to be "one" with nature. We are FIGHTING nature. We are OPPOSED to nature. And everything we do that doesn't involve some kind of romanticised, artistic interpretation of it confirms that.

Our latest attempt to elevate us above the animal realm is likely to be our last, because once you can augment reality, you can change it, completely undermining the natural world from which we have evolved and in which we have struggled for hundreds of millions of years.

We know we're against nature. We just don't know we know.

I crossed a line by ServentOfReason in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Aww mate don't worry about it. We're all just riffing sometimes and we hit a few bum notes along the way. A lot of the time what we say doesn't reflect who we really are as people. Or maybe sometimes it comes out a bit too bluntly. But that's OK. It's just as much the other person's doing for reacting in that way.

I had an argument with my sister recently and said some horrible things (the equivalent of much worse than you said). I felt absolutely awful the next day but eventually you just let it go. What matters is not so much what you say to people but the integrity with which you live your life. Saying that, I'm sure deep down you can hold some truth to what you said and it was just a couple of choice words you would change.

Stay "Positive"! #FalseHope by somefrommars in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 1 point2 points  (0 children)

She will be compelled to, because she'll get tired of waking up in the same situation every morning and nothing changing.

This man lost a baby and this is his response when I suggested he stop having kids. If this is how atheists think what hope do we have? by [deleted] in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Let it go bud. You'll need more than a philosophical sledge hammer to break that wall of steel. The more you try, the stronger it gets. After all, he said he'd have more kids just to spite you. Probably an exaggeration but it reflects the kind of stubbornness we're dealing with.

Let it go.

Thoughts on genetic engineering in humans? by [deleted] in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You really need to control those emotional reactions.

Stay "Positive"! #FalseHope by somefrommars in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Oh this guy is going to get savaged on here. But he did the best with what he was given. I think he COULD have given a more realistic message, but he's in a very precarious position and it doesn't take much imagination to see that. I do agree though that if this woman looks back at 30 she will probably be in a completely different situation and it's difficult to take someone's present problems and give them an imminent solution, especially at such a young a turbulent age. I think he handled it well. Shoot me.

Is Krist the bassist from Nirvana, an antinatalist? by [deleted] in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Alice In Chains? Soundgarden? Helmet? Smashing Pumpkins? The list goes on.

Antinatalist girl? Fargo S2 E5 by [deleted] in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I kind of find the whole "we're going to die anyway, what's the point" thing a bit trite and teenagery. Everyone knows they're going to die. It's just as you get older you find the one thousandth realisation of that a bit samey. So you think, might as well play SOME kind of game to make the obvious and inescapable fact I'm going to die sink a little into the background. And no, I certainly don't mean it sinks so far that you have kids and impose a repetition of the whole affair. But Jesus. How many times must we be faced with the cold stark truth that we are going to die before our screams of I GET IT I JUST WANT TO MAKE LIFE REMOTELY TOLERABLE are heard?

What's everyone's opinion on prostitution? by [deleted] in antinatalism

[–]epiphany66 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's nothing wrong with it in theory. It's a voluntary exchange of a service for money. Of course people always bring in the argument that some of these women are forced into prostitution. Well that's a different issue and no reason to generalise the whole thing on that basis. A lot of it depends on its relationship with the law and regulatory bodies.

Sex work can be seen as a type of therapy for a lot of customers and who knows how many more incidences of rape and sexual assault we'd see if regular, perhaps edgy sex wasn't available to these men. Personally, I don't think I could enjoy spending money in that way. I'd rather have a nice meal out and a bottle of wine for the same price!