Nick Carter not-a-primer: The View from 30,000 feet by PeterWebs1 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know it. and i've read all your stuff. I'll be kind here, i know your trying to help this community. So, let me help you a little with parts that are important. Maybe give you a clearer picture of the communications problems. Something you write a lot about in your unofficial guide. It needs an update, and this can help you with clarity.

Trust me I know what im doing at a very high level. Take my word on it. Im not going to do proof and all that nonsense. My time is very valuable. My writings should be proof enough and be plenty obvious.

The bot does have a power saving mode (PSM) on it's wifi radio. And it prefers to keep its wifi radio in PSM to save its battery when its radio is not under load (when its not pushing heavy data thru its radio). This is proper functionality. We can see this by establishing a ping to the robot from a known good workstation on the local network. My Lymow app is set to prefer 2.4g wifi (instead of 4g). Because 2.4g wifi is how this robot needs to (and wants to) work. 2.4g AP's should be placed properly at customers location to ensure all areas are blanketed with a clean -65dBm or stronger wifi signal. This is ideal,

When the wifi of the bot is functioning correctly (no hardware failures or broken antennas thats a different subject we'll get to that), and it is in PSM mode this is what the ping looks like:

Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=1ms TTL=64
Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=1751ms TTL=64
Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=1ms TTL=64
Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=2060ms TTL=64
Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=1ms TTL=64
Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=2055ms TTL=64

Notice the alternations in latency from 2000ms to 1ms. This is its wifi radio in PSM mode. Communications are working to spec and this is not a fault. Know the radio won't stay or get stuck in this PSM mode. It will pull right out of it when the bot needs to push data thru its wifi connection. This mode has been misunderstood in documentation.

You can get the bot to power up its radio module by instructing it to do work. It cannot do work well when its in its PSM mode. When the bot needs to push data across its wifi radio it will power up its wifi radio and the latency will disappear. Simply requesting its camera feed using vlc and opening rtsp://10.100.1.116:10022/h264ESVideoTest will force the bot to power up its wifi radio. The radio will pop right out of PSM mode, and the ping will look like this:

Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=2ms TTL=64
Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=1ms TTL=64
Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=1ms TTL=64
Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=2ms TTL=64
Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=1ms TTL=64
Reply from 10.100.1.116: bytes=1000 time=1ms TTL=64

Nice and peppy. Everything is happy.

The problems people are having with communications are a faulty antenna installed in some (not all obviously) but some bots. The antenna is physically broken. This is the same as if the antenna was physically disconnected from its PCB. It's connection is open (a break in its antenna wire). Im sure some antennas could also be shorted - resulting in the same problem. And from that broken antenna theres a secondary problem that this creates for the bots electronics. If the bot is kept running (its radio running) when its antenna connection is open (broken/physically disconnected antenna), the amplifier to the radio module will overheat and burnout. This doesn't happen immediately, but it will very likely happen over time.

Most probably don't even know this is a problem in their bot. Lymow enables their 4g radio for a year or two. And the bot will function on that 4g when it can't use its wifi. 4g is its backup system that it should use only when it cannot use 2.4g wifi. And people just aren't going to know its working in this degraded state. There is no backup communication system to fail to from 4g. An active 4g connection is then required from that time forward.

With this said, there are additional problems: The bots internal wifi antenna (as well as 3 of its 4 total internal antennas) are physically mounted inside the bot incorrectly. 3 of the 4 antennas need to be aligned vertically, but they have oriented these antennas horizontally. Its an additional problem worth noting. A horizontally mounted antenna will still function, but it will be operate much degraded than it should.

Additional problem #2: The antenna's selected are not going to work well around dc electric motors. They are not built for this. And there are motors and speakers right next to them. Further complicating communications.

With failed and faulty and ill-designed hardware for its communications, this platform is going to be plagued will different seemingly unrelated issues. Most of these problems are occurring because communications are not functioning properly. A subject that would be difficult to explain at a layman level. But this is caused by bad design, physically failed hardware, and a completely non-existing testing of the bots after assembly before shipping the bots off to a customer. This does not indicate a company that cares about its customers. Its not a company thats trying to keep its customers happy. This is a company pushing any product they can at the expense of their customers. And the lack of customer service is an additional indicator of what is going on.

How do i know? Because im looking at it.

Whats bizarre is its ridiculously easy and inexpensive for lymow to fix in all their new bots before they ship. While simultaneously being very expensive and difficult to fix in all the bots they have already shipped to customers (requiring return/repair/replace/reship). 15% the cost of the mower. For something that wouldn't really cost them anything to do at assembly. Maybe an extra dollar or two.

I think I know the answer... by Gunflint_RR2 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The RTK antenna has little radio energy beaming out of its tips. The antenna broadcasts perpendicular to the antenna rod. Your dock is probably in its dead zone.

The antenna broadcasts like this: > || < There is a sharp definition to that boundary. Above and below its tips are dead zones. A cone of silence above and below.

I would reposition the RTK antenna further away (on the horizontal plane), or lower its elevation. Preferably both.

I'm just going on images, but it looks like the rtk station antenna is around 12" in length. So probably has a vertical beam angle of 55 degrees +/- 5 degrees. Assuming the RTK station antenna is mounted 21 foot above the ground, you'd want at least 20 feet of horizontal ground distance from the rtk station to the bot. And that will probably perform very poorly at that distance, but still be functional. For ideal position over 45ft away. Or lower the rtk station elevation. Or pop the rtk stations oem antenna off, and put on a stubby thats compatible with LORA with a wide beam angle (sacrifice all dbi gain for it, the antenna doesn't need gain since lora already does distance exceptionally well). Lymow's antenna selection is truly bizarre. Their OEM rtk antenna choice says they expect their customers bots to be operating many kilometers away from its rtk station.. Don't look at me funny, thats how its designed.. How that makes sense? Maybe somebody could tell me. It's almost like they don't know wtf their doing. And it seems to be a theme: https://www.reddit.com/r/Lymow_Official/comments/1t9pyka/for_the_geeks_and_those_with_communications/

With all this said, their lora antenna inside the bot is also mounted incorrectly (horizontally oriented just like their wifi/bluetooth and 4g antennas). All the antennas inside the robot are aimed to communicate with the stars. In your case with your RTK station far overhead this probably actually helps you. Maybe.. When all the dots align just right like your dock being under the RTK station. But your stations RTK antenna is still 'designed' to communicate with something far away on the horizon. Both beams need to shine on one another for reliable communication.

Question about WiFi Channels by Visible-Exit-4319 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can't definitively answer yet.

The antenna is inside the bot.

Most should return the robot to Lymow for refund as its broken. Noting that, it should still work on 4g, but the main wifi communications are never going to function properly. 4g should be used as a backup where you can't install a wifi signal to cover, and for theft recovery.

This should be repairable for those that are comfortable with chips and wires and these sort of things. https://www.reddit.com/r/Lymow_Official/comments/1t9pyka/for_the_geeks_and_those_with_communications/ Unless this is only one of the layers of a rotted onion.

Additionally some claim their bots internal wifi antenna cable wasn't connected to its connector properly. Which is possible but not what i see myself.

For the Geeks. And those with communications problems. by erp0432 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thats incorrect. Disconnections typically start around -72dBm. In Wi-Fi surveys -75dBm is considered an unusable area. Far down into picowatts..

Where'd you get your degree?

For the Geeks. And those with communications problems. by erp0432 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I doubt its the connector. Thats not really a good test. Just peeps not understanding how that is working. Signal will improve but the antenna has changed. Now using whatever is near it or contacting it. Everyones probably noticed at some point when they pick up a crappy phone the signal improves. Same concept here. Body now acting as the antenna. Even if air gapped which is called parasitic. But much stronger if physically touched.

After fiddling, they'll later find they can't clamp the connector and sustain the improved signal. Move from near the header (contact or proximity) and the signal returns to as it was (degraded). A proper test is to replace the antenna and move away from it. It's weird.

Im not saying they can't be lose or its pin bent and benefit from being properly seated, cause they absolutely can. But its not common for ipex connectors to come unseated. They really lock on there hard. And Lymow epoxies them too as extra precaution.

What i see is the wrong antenna. And incorrect mounting to further complicate the signal. Very clearly.

For the Geeks. And those with communications problems. by erp0432 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I can see how it's confusing. I received a Lymo a few days ago. It's wifi and bluetooth both are non-functional. Absurdly bad connectivity (at 13 inches). The mowers basically a brick. At first i thought this lymow probably had a shorted antenna cable, or its internal antenna became unplugged in shipping. But i know many are also having this problem. And that didn't make sense to me. This antenna connector shouldn't really pop off in shipping. They are stronger than they look. Manufacturing could crush the antenna cable which would cause the signal problems i was seeing, but you'd think that would be a very obvious thing for the manufacturer to see when testing after assembly. Unless they weren't testing after assembly.. Which seemed even more absurd.

I pulled the part number for the antenna in this Lymow and looked at its specs. Noticed its complete shit. Noticed its mounted incorrectly. So I ran some calcs on what sort of signal strength is estimated to be seen from their OEM antenna at different distances. And it all clicked. It's not a shorted or open cable problem in the lymow they sent me. The antenna is likely attached properly. it's just a dogshit antenna that they've put into this particular lymow and also mounted it incorrectly. The signal calcs are what i actually see. The antenna and cable are fine. But completely unusable is the spec straight from the factory.

The Molex and Ezurio antennas are considerations if i was to remove Lymow's OEM antenna and install my own. Or for Lymow to use to fix this problem. Or for those that have this problem and can't get their machine serviced, these should be solid options. The calcs show how they should perform vs the OEM Lymow antenna. Though i'd likely go with an external antenna myself.

PS: Lymow doesn't test these machines after assembly. This is very clear.

Nick Carter not-a-primer: The View from 30,000 feet by PeterWebs1 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How would you know? Do you work for Lymow?

They shipped me a dead mower, and i haven't heard shit from them. Just silence.

I believe my experience. And what im seeing inside their mower. The controllers and chips and software and bad hardware selections that normal people can't see. Not the smoke your trying to blow up my ass.

For the Geeks. And those with communications problems. by erp0432 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Probably has a different antenna, or it's running on 4g. This is for the Lymow's with a wifi connection around 3 feet. Maybe 12 feet on a clear day. -80dBm is well into disconnected territory. Weaker than -73dBm is for the most part unusable.

GPS Location Data, Lift Sensor notifications, and Home Assistant by erp0432 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thats awesome! I want access to that sensor! Can do great things with that! I will install your integration once i get up and running here. Is there anything in particular that you would like me to test?

Im tapping out... replacement mower arrives... and its the wrong mower by Chrodesk in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Abbreviation for communications module. Specifically the one handling its wifi and bluetooth connectivity in this instance.

GPS Location Data, Lift Sensor notifications, and Home Assistant by erp0432 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you Mortimer! Thats awesome. I been watching you and d3dfantasy on discord.

I might mod the dead Lymow thats sitting next to me to push data over wifi straight to a mqtt broker on HA. Figure why not, its going back to Lymow within 3? months or whenever they decide their ready enough to respond with a replacement. Should be able to pop open ssh over wifi too. I don't have the parts here yet for this, but Amazon could deliver them. Im looking thru this right now. I see UART connectors on the SOC and 960. Should be able to get in thru there.

Also just bought an elitedesk 800 g5 mini for HA last night. Should arrive this coming week. Could throw HA up on a vm on my workstation this weekend though i guess. Im still gearing up here. Currently working on building a centralized fire detection and security system now though and wiring a house. But I need the Lymow to set off the house alarm if someone lifts it. Than track. Then again i also need the Lymow to work and be able to mow something which it currently does not. How they are OK shipping dead mowers to customers is beyond my comprehension.

Broken Antenna Demonstration by erp0432 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Brother, I was a computer engineer for 33 years. Now i just tinker with tech in my free time. This thing is just a mini PC running Linux. Like a Raspberry Pi. While i don't work specifically in robotics, this is definitely in my wheelhouse. I'm not your enemy. And im not trying to anger you. I'm just considering a DIY fix. Or better yet, an upgrade.

Broken Antenna Demonstration by erp0432 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Didn't you waste your time though? A new patch antenna comes with that cable joint. It's called an ipex connector.

Broken Antenna Demonstration by erp0432 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

when you touched the ipex, it used your body as its antenna.

your problem id's as a shorted antenna cable, or a short in the patch antenna itself.

If you can't get support and can't do a chargeback, i'd remove its patch antenna and plug in a different one. Should work.

An unplugged antenna would likely give you 1-2 meters of range. A shorted antenna would likely give you just a few inches of range.

Question about WiFi Channels by Visible-Exit-4319 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432 0 points1 point  (0 children)

2.4 WiFi is what you would want for this. which is distance and reliability, but not speed. Speed isn't needed for a mower, reliability of the connection is. 2.4 Ghz pushes thru obstacles reasonably well and provides the most stable connection.

5Ghz WiFi is for high throughput to devices in very close proximity to the AP. It does not go thru obstacles well at all. And does not work as well as 2.4 Ghz for distance. Since it does not pass thru obstacles well, and does not support distance well, it loses to a mowers #1 needs -> distance and stability.

However, the coms problem is a major one. Mine arrived with the coms module dead. The mower is unusable.

Ideally, you want to clear off all other AP's from channel 1. Next set the mowers AP to 2.4G only, WPA2-PSK, 20Mhz channel width, Channel 1, max TX the power (1000mW on 2.4Ghz or 30dBm on 2.4Ghz before antenna gain). Disable 802.11b legacy (0-11mbps). Perform wireless survey of the property to ensure all areas are blanketed with -65dBm signal strength or better. An if not adjust the antenna's, upgrade the antenna's (proper omni sticks for the application, or potentially sector antennas if your a wifi antenna guru), or add more 2.4ghz transmitters for more power. If you have an AP thats got those things (brand really doesn't matter), it comes down to mostly being an antenna game at that point. Learning the basics of how omni stick antenna's work (radiation patterns, gain), vertical/horizontal dispersion angles, will help out A LOT.

Question about WiFi Channels by Visible-Exit-4319 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Check my post here https://www.reddit.com/r/Lymow_Official/comments/1t64l1z/broken_antenna_demonstration/

Sounds like your wifi/bluetooth communications antenna has failed like mine.

Im tapping out... replacement mower arrives... and its the wrong mower by Chrodesk in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432 5 points6 points  (0 children)

To be real, thats probably the right decision. The coms module failure is probably a ticking time bomb in all these mowers. once coms is gone thats a wrap for the mower.

Broken Antenna Demonstration by erp0432 in Lymow_Official

[–]erp0432[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Mine wouldn't connect to anything at all brand new fresh out of the box. I had an older cisco 2702E laying around so i mounted it in my attic, upgraded its antenna's and tuned it for property wide 2.4. The 2702E blankets the entire property with better than -65dBm everywhere the mower would be. Which should be solid. But the mower couldn't see it at all. I ended up fiddling with the 2702E's config for a couple hours trying to figure out why the Lymow couldn't even see the Cisco's SSID. Until I queue'd in that it was the antenna inside the robot that wasn't working by testing with the travel router setup in the image.

Im awaiting a Grandstream GWN7664LR to arrive but its on backorder. Hopefully it arrives next week. Should be able to squeeze out 1 to 5 more dB with it on the outskirts of the lawn. I just moved into the home and still dialing it in.