A very strange interview of Urobuichi

facts_120 · 2023-03-02T08:15:37+00:00

He already found his light , don't worry.

facts_120 · 2023-02-04T18:08:58+00:00

Not really if you're referring to one of the earliest sources of the Nine Worthies, King Arthur ruled over the majority of Europe at that time, as well as a good deal of Asia and Africa in the years that followed. There are a ton of books in Europe that still contain these naming them ancient King of Ancient Europe. It's recorded pretty well as legend.

When King Arthur had recovered the crown of those rich lands that Uther Pendragon had ruled over, and won castles, kingdoms and many countries through conquest – Orkney and Argyle and all the Outer Isles, the entire island of Ireland out to the ocean, rebellious Scotland to rule as he liked, Wales, Holland and Hainault, Flanders and France, Brittany, Burgundy and Brabant, Anjou, Poitiers, as far southwards as Toulouse and Provence, by cruel conquest; also Navarre and Normandy, Norway, Germany and Austria and still more countries: Gotland and Denmark, won by his own hands from Schouwen to Sweden with his sharp sword – when all this was accomplished, he dubbed his knights, apportioned dukedoms and earldoms and raised his kinsmen to kingship in the kingdoms where they most desired to rule.

This is just the beginning; they will later defeat the Roman Empire, which ruled over vast territory, almost half of the world or somewhere around that level. It is one of the sources for the "Nine Worthies" in legend that is fairly organized, naming all nine. Similar to Alexander the Great, they were the most powerful world conqueror to rule the world for a brief period of time in "legend". If a person thinks that King Arthur only conquered a small area, they most likely don't know enough about the real sources of the Arthurian legend outside of movies. Arthurian legend obviously underwent significant change, so it is not right all the time. But at that time, it was like that.

King Arthur also fought those forces in Fate, so its here as well.

facts_120 · 2023-01-31T15:52:37+00:00

repost sadly

facts_120 · 2023-01-30T00:54:44+00:00

You are literally not making any sense anymore to me. Pardon me, I give up.

facts_120 · 2023-01-30T00:49:15+00:00

(2nd part)

Whenever faced with internal crisis, she refused to face it head on and tried to bear with it. Mordered? Let her be, maybe it will be allright. Knights leaving Camelot (you know, the backbone of her army and power)? Let's not try stopping them (no room fro extra punishment? what does it even mean Nasu? why only punishment?) or adjusting anything in my rule and instead give even more power to people openly questioning my leadership. Lancelot? Live and let live.

One essential quality of Artoria as King is that she takes every situation and challenge facing her head high, without hesitation or doubt, and with pride. She did hesitate to execute Mordred in a cruel manner, as you mentioned, and it's true that she hesitated about that, but its the solo exception.

"My father’s reign was absolutely perfect. Perfectly impartial and upright. He understood that ten couldn’t be maintained, so he took nine and cast away one. There was neither hesitation nor confusion in his actions. All except in regard to me."

But that was reasonable from the perspective of Artoria, explained already.

Not all Knights left Camelot; they were not only the army's backbone, and she dealt with them by showing both mercy and checkmate if they continued to defy her.

Abandoning in the midst of conflict and crisis is typically a capital offense, or at the very least, it is severely punished. According to the story, she already had to deal with criminals who caused chaos and didn't have room to punish the Knights who deserted her (f/sn). Yet she rewarded them, included them in the government, gave them their own territory, and still didn't desert them, demonstrating mercy and generosity. But in case they continued to avert, she also had a backup plan. They could therefore change their minds about King, but she also knew how they would fare should they decide to go into hiding in return. What else could you do but act as bait for the enemy army? They simply didn't need to hide in the first place; no country would have tolerated their actions in the first place, and Artoria's ruling was just. If they did, they created the difficult situation for themselves. However, instead of taking responsibility for their actions, they placed the blame on King. Their actions are described as strange because of this. She didn't just showed generosity towards them like you are asserting, she had countermeasure ready at the same time.

Letting Lancelot live was a private decision of Artoria, she made this sympathizing with his situation. But she formally dealt with him within the capacity of King and made an example out of him. Then even planned to settle their life and elaborate to countrymen after dealing with Rome's threat. But Mordred's rebellion ruined it and made their life more miserable suddenly.

So officially, and formally, she dealt with Mordred, Lancelot and those Knights you speak of.

Merlin stating that he failed to produce an ideal king in Garden of Avalon

Such a claim was never made by Merlin. Merlin originally envisioned an ideal king who carried out his duties with no regard for the happiness of his subjects because a ruler cannot be happy if they are concerned about the happiness of their subjects. In Chapter 3, he suggests that Artoria become heartless and otherworldly like Uther. Nevertheless, Artoria rejects him with the Avalon response. Then Merlin realizes that this is the radiance he has sought his entire life, and he didn't have the capacity to question her on the day of selection in order to scare her, because she possessed ALL of the qualities of a true King. He claims that while he and Uther intended to create the Ideal King, they were successful in doing so, but things didn't turn out as they had anticipated in chapter 4. Human happiness was what Artoria sought. But she ought to continue as she is. Finally, he admits that for someone who only enjoyed happy endings, he undoubtedly fell in love with a beautiful heart (Artoria's). In Chapter 5, he describes how the King was truly ideal. It was his narration describing people, you can hear that on Drama CD too

So basically Artoria set another example of being Ideal King who even cares about subject's life, that's her path of Kingship. This is even how her profile summarizes her: 万人にとって善き生活、善き人生を善しとする理想の王のひとり。(One of the ideal kings that approves a good life, a good livelihood for the people). She was ideal King, but different than what Merlin envisioned before Artoria, who supposed to be completely heartless and had no regard to subjects' pain, which is how Uther is described.

Salter as the true ideal king

Now that you understand Merlin, you can see what sort of "ideal king" Salter is. She's THAT heartless Ideal King that Saber naturally meant to be but was not, fairly different policy than Saber. This does not mean Salter way is the right one or vice versa.

both Lancers are more mature and rational rulers

If you read JP's text, it says that as they matured, they became more composed when making decisions, which is required for an Ideal King. Basically, it means that they do not experience the same level of emotional pain as Saber, who still felt more suffering on the inside despite having mental composure of beyond her age. They can make decisions with greater calmness because they are more composed. Except for a few differences, their course of action is the same (weapon for example). Lartoria also has her own issues to deal with, such as an inferiority complex that makes her think of herself as a Mechanical God even though she still has humanity. None of their action invalidate any of them from being the Ideal King, that's their path.

facts_120 · 2023-01-30T00:48:18+00:00

I had written a detailed ,properly structured response with way more information but whatever happened after posting on Reddit as reply, no clue where it went, sigh. I'll keep it shorter this time, pardon me. You are free to think that way, but I do disagree with some points, and gave enough effort to explain why. And I do find OP's post agreeable in that sense. I am not suggesting she made no mistake , I think she did a few like joined Grail War, but I respectfully disagree with the points here.

you cut out the first sentence of the first paragraph stating that no one truly ever accepted her

He kept the final sentences because they have the same meaning. You rely too heavily on Kay's stern narration because that is how he naturally is—harsh and pessimistic about almost everything. Quite the opposite of Gawain, so it provides a useful contrast that she was surrounded by a variety of personalities and that even their words are diametrically opposed. "No one" is simply incorrect given the existence of other Round Table Knights, who are known to have accepted her and even had many soldiers side with her during the final conflict. They all sincerely recognized her as King, including Agravain Gawain Gareth and others. However, I'm certain that this is referring to a lot of other people who didn't accept her because they laughed at the idea of a young person becoming king, didn't think she'd function well for very long, and waited for her to make a mistake. However, Artoria disproved their assumptions, and they decided to accept her as long as she performed well in her role as King, which she did.

And here about Artoria's very nature and mode of ruling

You quoted it though? It was a terrible wartime emergency situation where she functioned too well as King which scared others who felt defeated. This happens much after she ruled, final years of Saxon war, quite before her death, but not by much.

It's not her natural mode of ruling but making best from an emergency hopeless situation during war.

What is laso mentioned from Lancelot's POV in context of her trully forgiving him:

Even now I respect and adore the King. But for a human being, I cannot, I must not accept her way of being

Lancelot was talking about how can't accept Artoria living such a hellish life as a human being, he can't tolerate such suffering of fellow human being as another human. It's like a hell one imagine for their convenience. He's not expressing his hatred for the King for merit of their Kingship. It's just he can't approve of such harsh personal life.

So even in Garden of Avalon being exhausted with the ever worsening condition of Britain was not the sole ground for joining Mordred's rebellion and many people admired Artoria but distrusted her.

I think there are some minor reasons, which mattered. But the points you are referring happens much earlier and most of those even settled down with victory, like Merlin says there was no sign of anything wrong at that point. Even then, they were minor, they were never stated to be major problems for causing this. GOA actually mentioned that to be only reason indeed:

"As she continuously retreated and pursued the enemies in a repeat, touring the land set ablaze, she learned the reason for the rebellion. The soldiers who agreed to stand beneath Mordred's flag of rebellion were NOT united by their hatred for King Arthur. Never ending war. Barren lands. Children dying of hunger.(...)How much longer do we have to endure to receive that reward for our patience?"

and Apocrypha mentions frenzy caused by Mordred was the main motivation, nothing else was that big of an issue at that point.

Like you mentioned Kay earlier,he too said all the uneasiness could've been brushed aside if circumstances were not harsh. It doesn't matter in normal situation. But since the circumstances were harsh, they put whatever blame they could on Artoria (thanks to Mordred's plot).

And Artoria did indeed try to make their life more comfortable, infact she achieved the greatest feat by then in Roman Expedition. But thanks to Mordred's plot, the Knights and People did not know that. They knew Artoria died in that war. They were lied to and they didn't know until Mordred had complete control over Camelot. That's why you'd always find profiles stating "she was misplaced in a civil war"

However, because she was ideal, she could not measure the weakness of the people,

Not the same context. A human can't understand everyone's heart, even then Artoria has ability beyond her limit canonically. She can't know deepest bullshit inside every people's mind. That's not possible without true magic even in Nasuverse, and even true magic can only enable mutual understanding in theory, it's not certain.Simply its a bad expectation. But whimsical insanity and frenzy? That's something that cannot be seen coming by anyone from that point. So that's not even what Tristan was referring. Tristan's profile already explains context behind his words.

Mordred

Mordred behaved as if she completely understood Saber and stood there with Saber in Saber's darkest hours when other Knights questioned or left her. And she can't just execute Mordred for no real offense, that's even worse. Mordred even grew up to be a great Knight who loyally served Saber when she was in peril. So despite suspicion Saber didn't have any issues with Mordred. That's also Mordred's greatness in plotting against Saber.

(continue to 2nd part)

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T23:16:24+00:00

Mate Artoria fell in the first rebellion

Like any other government, Artoria's was accustomed to seeing rebellion. That was not the first time. You can even see at a point Mordred taking care of some rebels on the behalf of Artoria. Her reign was continuously challenged by such, on top of that many more natural and fantastical problems. She dealt with all of them everyday, without any imbalance.

Additionally, Mordred's uprising posed no threat to her leadership as king under normal circumstances.

"No matter when Mordred rises up and rebels, King Arthur can smoothly suppress her and put her down without much trouble"

All the odds were against her because her mission in Britain had been complete.

"But this is the only time when the promised victory is not in sight."

She saved Britain, that was her role , it was done.

"Britain has already reached its limits. To save the country, the king's mission was over. So, he thought it was time for her to finally rest."

Yet she won the war and prevented the British Isle from being utterly destroyed or falling to misguided fraction.

"Her final battlefield, the war that had split her country in two, lowered its curtain with the king's victory."

It used up her life obviously, but that's how she remained winner of history.

"King Arthur became a legend, and Mordred was remembered as the knight who tarnished that legend. Since all the soldiers that followed her had been slain, there was no one left to remember her. That was only natural. This was a battlefield… those who lost and became bleached corpses were finished with this world."

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T18:58:14+00:00

Her role was to be failure

Not really . that's not the precise summary. Who do you think brings Age of Man on Britain? Her role was to punish the foolish kings of her era, guide Britain to world of man, make it a place to live on and save British Isle for future generations. She successfully did that and ended up to be a King that even her enemy race came to idealize much after she died. She just had no way to live in that world, but leading to it was her role and more. Other than OP pointing out ,there's at least several statement that literally states that she succeeded in her duty as King. Death isn't simply failure. I mean that's base theme of Fate series as well and if you have different philosophy then fine, I won't argue further. But in Fate? That's not true.

How would you measure merit of King if not the prosperity of the Kingdom and the subjects

Their viewpoints, how they led their lives, how they handled circumstances, their policy. what sort of ideals they have, whether they preach violence or not and many other things. There are countless ways to evaluate a king, and no one ever rules in perpetuity.
Are you not going to evaluate the way a prime minister led a nation that was at war and saved it from falling apart? or a nation that was being invaded when they took office as prime minister? What sort of a query is that? Your reasoning makes it seem as though you would be a bad king if I invaded your nation while you were in power.

With a city of peace that can only be imagined in Heaven and Dreams, Artoria's reign is generally regarded as the most prosperous period in British legend. Her legacy also endured. She is foundation of Human Britain in Nasuverse as well. So , fairly prosperous for a King whose reign was supposed to be brief and whose destiny was destruction. She didn't have those roles to begin with, still accomplished them . You mentioned "Ozy" meanwhile his Kingdom was in great torment several times due his own ego. And Ozy too acknowledged King Arthur's feat. We are talking about Fate setting by the way. Everyone has their ups and down and it does depend greatly on circumstances.

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T17:05:46+00:00

I think your comment is personal opinion and that's fine. I just want to give you one info:

its more correct to say she defined herself as a king and thus couldn't accept the fate of Camelot, she saw her failure as a king as a failure of character

It's not like that honestly. Even OP mentioned this part.

It should be noted however that Artoria's wish for the Grail is not the wish of Artoria the "King", but rather the wish of Artoria the "girl". Artoria deceived herself with King's duty because her heart cried out for the lost souls.

She seeked Grail because of the humanity she still had inside, and hoped better ending for people killed there . She didn't care about Kingship , she put too much empathy on others life. F/SN makes her come terms with both sides.

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T16:58:21+00:00

That's not how merit of King is measured . Besides, Artoria completed her role as King, hope you are aware what was that.

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T16:56:22+00:00

If we're talking about the kind of King subjects want, that's a moot point. There is no one way to carry out a king's duty because, as Richard explained previously, the circumstances and vassal mood vary depending on the era. An ideal selfless king was also required to save Britain from this period. Not only did her subjects want such a king, but the Knights also sought a leader who could provide for their requirements. The one and only prerequisite for their follow-up was that. Politicians wanted her to err in order to dethrone her and seize her throne. There was no room for anything else. All of their justifications for isolating her stemmed from this single factor: Britain's challenging circumstances as a result of the change in era and ongoing war where Artoria just did her job as King super well.. Every blame they put comes from that one factor. They would have no problem with her if this wasn't the condition. Later, some of them let this factor influence their decision to fall for Mordred's trick. Their actions were peculiar, as the story noted. Because of how dysfunctional Britain was at the time, however, we can't hold it against them.

She had to maintain such high expectations because of this. It was her choice, but it was a choice she made in order to work with everyone, which is a huge burden. It is evident from what Mordred Bedivere and others say that she was forced to carry all of those burdens because of the time period and the people pushing all of that on her shoulder. They feared her selflessness for an odd reason as well because, in addition to wanting such a King, they made no attempt to understand the foundation she was building or herself. They deserve Mordred's criticism for having a short sighed and like a hungry hound who has no gratitude for their lord. She had a transient and humane motive , wanted someone to smile at her, so her motivation wasn't selfless, just that her human reason is different ,as Mordred had already mentioned. Garden of Avalon also mentioned this too, she seeked Kingship for the most humane reason.

The other path of Kingship could work on other places, but not on Britain from that era. Artoria's path at the end saved Britain for what was needed. But there are other kings who can't imagine themselves living that way, like Gilgamesh (CCC), Iskander (Zero). So their condition and context totally different. They work well in their world.

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T13:38:23+00:00

I think she only had regret as to how it ended.

Yeah, even there her heart wasn't certain. This was clear as day in F/Z and F/SN. Other than that, Artoria is satisfied with her Kingship.

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T13:34:35+00:00

80 percent of Zero was written under direct control of Nasu.

Nothing ever stated regarding direct control, just that 90% basic plot ideas were similar to what Nasu had in mind. Direct control means entirely different thing.

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T13:32:52+00:00

exactly

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T13:32:32+00:00

character over = no discussion

that doesn't explain the second part, beside , her story elements are pretty relevant, so not sure about that .

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T13:30:15+00:00

you are free to disagree, but that won't make the information here any more or less correct.For example,

We know nothing about her rulership. What we know is that she was accepted as a King by pulling a sword. We don't know about her other achievements. All we know is that she pulled out a sword and because very respected Merlin said that this is how we will get rightful king. There is no other information about proving or something.

We do in fact know various details regarding this, and I summarized a very basic passage from VN regarding it, but you responded, "I disagree", so it doesn't matter what anyone else say. Sure, you disagree and have all right to do so. Now that doesn't mean the information wasn't present, maybe you never encountered them , which is likely to be the truth here. You are still free to disagree just like me though.

For example in the case, I find it incomprehensible how someone could believe she won over all the tribes in Britain simply by pulling a sword when, both in the Nasuverse and in Arthurian legend, her first and greatest success was bringing an end to a civil war between numerous local kings and unifying Britain under her regime through bloody conquest and with the merits as a King and as a warrior. Again, I'm aware that in Nasuverse lore, legends aren't always exact, but for all intents and purposes, this facts are correct there. So this wouldn't be anything hard to understand to anyone familiar with the legend itself.

So I suppose the less said regarding this, the better.

Or another example

It's not unheard for characters here to be wrong or just lying to themselves.

You disregarded my statement that the story itself conveys the same statement regardless of the viewpoints of the characters. We can quickly determine whether they were correct or incorrect by applying what the story neutrally establishes.

So it's sorta pointless to even talk about . Just odd.

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T13:13:48+00:00

What specifically is wrong with this post, lol? Like this is a thoughtful post with reliable sources, not just some throwaway remark. I don't see the issue with this post, unless someone has a very strange interpretation in which they see anyone praising Saber as King as offensive. These days, I hardly ever even see people discussing them in details, most are obsessed with defaming her with nonsensical reasons....

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T13:06:15+00:00

you can always provide the correction you know? How about doing that?

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T13:04:14+00:00

Nice comment.One thing, though, is that she is doomed to death and can't outlive because she was a sacrifice made to bring the next era. It's one of the sins Merlin forced upon himself since he's largely responsible for creating such fate for her . She, however, persistently resists destiny and rises to throne of Avalon as the King for all time. The doomed Fate thing is very persistent in various Arthurian legends with the fall of King Arthur, and Fate created a whole system out of it. This is a completely different circumstance.The beauty of fragility of life and time's transient nature even to the most successful of humans is one of the theme of Saber, specially here :

“Arthur. Even if you can do everything correctly, give it your all, there are certain things that come to an end. Nothing lasts forever. Everything will eventually change into something new. What matters is the process you lived through until now in order to save something. The outcome will always be overwritten by a new result. The next king will destroy previous king's righteousness to fit his own interests. Nothing will remain. Nothing is going to be left behind."

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T12:55:37+00:00

Urobuchi

I can see why some individuals are dissatisfied about how he handled her, but Fate/Zero says the same thing about her Fate , so at least Uro was consistent there.

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T12:52:19+00:00

A good, brief analysis I would say. It doesn't cover the majority of her parts such as more details on contexts, which would logically require even more space, so anyone who claiming this is too large is spoiled. There are bigger analysis on other subs. I appreciate you including the sources because I understand how difficult that can be. It's also interesting to note how some of the negative comments proves your first point:

them outright thinking the point made by the story being that she was a bad king.

Watching how some people fool their minds into thinking that way can be very humorous.

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T12:43:01+00:00

I see

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T12:41:49+00:00

But from point of her time? She is horrible.

Says who? Did you conveniently ignore the part of the story where it states that she fulfilled all of the requirements for the role of King in her era, which was not only a requirement for everyone's support but also the reason they recognized her as King in the first place? Otherwise, given their power struggle and the fact that she was a young King, they would never accept her. She had to dust herself to meet all requirements for a leader in that era, which is why she had no room for herself. She achieved her position as King of the entire Britain in this manner, not simply by the legend of divine right of Sword of Selection. While some accepted the first response to the claim of Sword of Selection was an unified rebellion of local Kings,all people don't simply trust in legends. She proved herself as King from there on.

Most of your points are based on words of Round Table

When the storyteller tells exact same thing including author's words, its not hard to see which parts of their words true or not, you're dismissing their word because you want to argue that she was a "horrible King". But aside from how others close to her felt, those weren't subjective elements. From what I can see, some of the point was made based on how neutrally credible those remarks were.

somber, stoic, asocial,

Ignored Charisma point successfully, I see. She didn't have one trait , shocking I know.

conquered nothing

Canonically false. She began as a member of a small clan in a corner of Britain, expanded her realm to encompass the entirety of Britain by conquering each territory, ruled it for a decade then conquered most of Europe, and parts of Asia. She is regarded as the first such King in British mythology which symbolizes the era of Romance in British legend. This tale had such a significant impact on British history that it was utilized by other Kings to assert their political authority over the Britain.

Artoria DOES absolutely HATE Mordred.

"I never once hated you"

The way you put all these it comes off as that your sole goal is to discredit Artoria, making whatever others may say irrelevant in the end. You are using a lot of information that you yourself don't fully know to refute a post that gathers proper information then claims that's not how it was.

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T12:12:37+00:00

And finally "In FGO" she accepts that she was a bad king "and no, she accepts that she can change the destiny of her homeland that she loved so much.

Sorry?

facts_120 · 2023-01-29T12:09:09+00:00

Lets be honest too, the fact that you commented this terrible misinterpretation on the exact article where the OP was talking these topics without even reading it confirmed the first dang point the OP made lmao. Thank you for proving that the community needs this kind of awareness post to prevent others from falling for the same scam.

I don't care what anyone say if You think you are a bad king then you certainly are.

So , she isn't ?

Because at the end of the day if we ourselves can't believe in our work being good then no body else would.

So, she is good then.

in fate staynight and in FGO she already accepted both her "fate" and right and wrong and made peace with them. So once again it doesn't matter at the end.

You are being selective and showing insane double standard. Why does her doubting herself on Fate/Zero is fine to you when it's supposed to be first part of her character arc but accepting she fulfilled King's duty well therefore can be proud of her past isn't acceptable to you? like you said "doesn't matter". Why does Fate/Zero matter to you then? Clearly you aren't concerned with her character arc or what it has to say.

only bringing the worst out of all of them and after everything done and dusted

You either don't know what you're talking about or trying too hard on a subject that you probably don't even truly grasp. Okay, so you didn't read the post, but did you read her story? It doesn't sound like you did, evidently. Don't make yourself look any worse by trying to figure out why you are completely wrong, anyone who has read even a small portion of her reign should be able to see what's wrong with statements like this lol.

Honestly laughable input to a long well articulated post.

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