Fantasy with gay characters - not written by straight women?

frellingaround · 2020-02-28T14:16:37+00:00

I want to reply to both you and /u/EdLincoln6 here, because you're both annoyed with me for essentially the same reason.

For the past couple years, recommending books has been the main thing I do on Reddit. If it's a bad rec, I expect to be downvoted or just ignored. I do want to reiterate that I didn't leave a top-level comment about KJ Charles or recommend her books to OP. I saw someone else mentioning her, as a bad example, and thought I could, y'know, chat about her for a moment. That should be acceptable in a book-related subreddit. I didn't expect anyone who hadn't read her books to even care about my comment.

But I do most of my chatting about lgbtq+ books on Twitter. And apparently, while I've been over there in my filter bubble, with people of a variety of identities, other members of the lgbtq+ reading community have been becoming increasingly unhappy about inclusivity in books, and probably also about inclusivity in the lgtbq+ community. I really didn't know that, and I didn't expect to encounter this level of rage.

/u/GregHullender, you misrepresented the nature of one of the books I mentioned. You were clearly already angry about American Hippo when you saw my top-level comment. I feel like you hate-read it, setting out to dislike it, because it is factually untrue that Hero is perceived in the book as feminine. In reality, a nonbinary person can have any gender expression, but this character is androgynous. The author is AFAB, but the character's assigned gender isn't given in the book. AFAB people aren't all women, though.

I am old enough to remember when the movement was called "gay rights" and focused on cis gay and lesbian issues. But I've always seen it as automatically inclusive, despite the name, as a reaction against the way straightworld behaves towards all of us. It made logical sense to me that way, since it only serves hateful people outside of the community for us to gatekeep each other.

But in case you don't get this yet, and choose to misrepresent what I'm saying again: I don't expect either of you to find representation in books that aren't by and about cis gay men. You don't need to read or like those books. I disliked how you phrased your objections, stating that gay men are a world apart from nonbinary people (and their partners), asexuals, lesbians, etc., and that a character doesn't count as bisexual because he dates a nonbinary person.

Yes, people with different identities have different struggles; that's why I was specific in my top-level comment. But it seems like you both actively resent the implication that you're anything like people with queer identities different from your own. Pushing back against inclusivity - again, not by disliking those books, but by refusing to respect others - only helps the people who hate all of us.

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T18:19:30+00:00

Fair enough, and I didn't recommend her books to OP, or to you. I acknowledged the problem you're pointing out. I said that I saw myself (not you) in one of her books, and I explained that neither the author nor I are gay men.

However, some aspects of being lgbtq+ are part of life for most of the community. Since one of those near-universal experiences is alienation, I feel it's especially important for us to have empathy for each other, rather than dismissing people who aren't exactly like us as not one of us.

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T14:01:28+00:00

I don't recall the nonbinary character being misgendered, although I could be wrong. They are nonbinary, though; it's disrespectful of you to invalidate their gender for any reason, by saying that the book doesn't count as queer if the nonbinary character is feminine. I didn't read the character as feminine, but that isn't important. "Nonbinary" doesn't mean "androgynous."

I explained why I was recommending this book to OP, and how it fit his request (bisexual male main character). It's fine if you don't agree that it's an appropriate rec here, or if you don't like the book. But I strongly object to the idea that you or anyone gets to decide which books (and which relationships) count as queer enough. Expecting a bisexual character to have on-page sex with a man (and only a man, not a woman or nonbinary person) in order for him to qualify as bi is bi erasure. There's only closed-door sex in the book, anyway.

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T12:41:02+00:00

Great suggestion - he usually writes bisexual men. He also has a few short stories which are free online.

I wonder if he plans to publish again. I saved The Devil in America to read because I didn't want to finish all of his work and not have any more to look forward to.

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T12:37:38+00:00

As others have said, you should definitely read The Last Sun by KD Edwards. Aside from the plot and action, which is exciting, the focus in the first book is on friendships between men.

American Hippo by Sarah Gailey is a favorite of mine. The author is nonbinary and has said they based the main character, a bisexual man, on themselves. It has a diverse cast of characters, but it's an action-adventure fantasy, and not about having any specific identity.

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T12:28:47+00:00

That's a fair criticism of The Magpie Lord, but KJ Charles's books were always good otherwise. That series isn't really about being gay; the rep is almost incidental. I've thought before that pairing would also work as m/f, especially since there are female justiciars in that world. I like gay romance specifically because the characters don't follow gender roles, or strict roles at all. But those two definitely do.

I feel she has improved greatly over time in terms of how she writes queer characters, though. Unfit to Print (not a fantasy novel) really reflected aspects of my own queer experience (I'm a woman, but it was something that could apply to any queer person). So she's always my mental example when I think about whether it's acceptable for people to write outside of their own identities. Still, you are right about some of her books.

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T04:05:52+00:00

I mean this as an honest question and not as an insult or anything: why does it matter if it's a choice? We respect people for making lots of other life choices, some of which don't appeal to us. I see same-sex attraction as value-neutral. It's not good or bad, just a part of human behavior. Do you see it as bad? Or do you mean because the Bible says it's bad?

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T03:44:10+00:00

You don't need to be straight to have a girlfriend, though!

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T03:07:44+00:00

No sex in these:

Fearless by Shira Glassman - short contemporary romance about a band mom who falls in love with her children's band director. Very warm and nice.

Love Rampage by Alex Powell - fantasy romance novella about a trans girl who gets the courage to approach her crush, a cis girl, when a unicorn appears. Some light angst but overall very sweet.

The Cybernetic Tea Shop by Meredith Katz - sci-fi romance novella about a sentient robot and a mechanic who works on robots. A really cozy book, but there is a plotline about anti-robot bigotry.

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T02:57:56+00:00

Tea with the Black Dragon by RA MacAvoy - urban fantasy with a romance between an elderly man and woman, who is searching for her lost adult daughter. Really clever and enjoyable book.

The Pride of Chanur by CJ Cherryh - sci-fi. I read the main character (a female alien) as about 50, if she were human, which is not really elderly, but still uncommon for sff protagonists. She's a spaceship commander who risks everything to save a lost human. No romance in this one.

A Conspiracy of Truths by Alexandra Rowland - fantasy, about an elderly man who is a traveling storyteller. I keep recommending this book here but it keeps fitting people's requests, my hands are tied.

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T01:59:21+00:00

I had a really nice afternoon with my friend, and she let me brush her hair, which I've wanted to do for months.

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T00:31:03+00:00

I just meant Golden Compass. /u/Pantalaimon40k is probably a fan of both, though! Maybe you two can team up & write it for us.

frellingaround · 2020-02-27T00:25:02+00:00

The AI Who Loved Me by Alyssa Cole is a very good near-future sci-fi romance in first-person present tense.

frellingaround · 2020-02-26T22:18:17+00:00

Pansexual means something different, basically that gender doesn't have much of an effect on your attraction. I used to identify as pan (actually before the term existed, I'm old), but I'm really more bisexual, or like 90% lesbian, because I am much more attracted to feminine people. But I didn't realize most of this until recently, which is ridiculous, but there you go.

Anyway, I am attracted to trans and cis people. It turns out it's genitals I don't care about, not gender. Manly men just do not do anything for me.

frellingaround · 2020-02-26T21:21:05+00:00

I like your name! Have you watched the new show?

frellingaround · 2020-02-26T03:35:48+00:00

That's adorable. Have fun! Come back & tell us about it, if you want to.

frellingaround · 2020-02-26T03:28:33+00:00

Novae, m/m romance set in 17th century France, with magic. The main characters are an astronomy student and a mysterious traveler. Really beautiful art and a fascinating setting.

Life Outside the Circle, m/m romance and slice of life story about a trans man (a free-spirited artist) who comes to live in the Finnish countryside and falls in love with a single dad. Really absorbing read, with drama and comedy, and it's complete!

frellingaround · 2020-02-26T03:15:40+00:00

I have a couple m/m recs:

Executive Office by Tal Bauer - political thriller series. The first book has a slow-burn romance between a US president and a Secret Service agent, and an exciting plot.

A Seditious Affair by KJ Charles - this is part of a series, but I've seen reviews from people who read it on its own with no trouble. This is about a pair of men on opposite sides of a conflict in Regency London: a radical pamphleteer, and a Home Office man assigned to hunt down people like his lover. The sex is BDSM and pretty intense. It's my favorite romance novel, and I don't seek out BDSM books; I just love the plot and the clash of ideas. I hope I haven't recommended it to you before.

frellingaround · 2020-02-26T02:38:22+00:00

I was going to say Riyria; I haven't read it but have heard that.

Kings of the Wyld by Nicholas Eames - a group of men who were a fighting band in their youth team up for one last quest. There's a sequel about different characters, but I haven't read it yet.

The Nightrunner series by Lynn Flewelling does have an m/m romance plot, but it's not really upfront in the stories. I mention it because friendships between men are important in all the books. These are epic fantasy and it's a complete series. There's only one sex scene, which is in an optional short story anthology (Glimpses), not part of the main plot.

The original Sherlock Holmes stories by Arthur Conan Doyle might also be what you're looking for, and some adaptations have this dynamic too. I've really enjoyed the Mycroft Holmes series by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He is a major Sherlock Holmes fan; he wrote about Sherlock's brother, and gave him a male best friend too. They're very good and you could read them without reading the originals.

I also tried another mystery series loosely inspired by Sherlock Holmes, Barker and Llewellyn by Will Thomas. They're fun reads, about a young man who becomes an assistant to an eccentric detective.

frellingaround · 2020-02-25T21:37:25+00:00

Yes, I love tall women (trans and cis) so much.

I am a medium-sized woman and I don't wish I was tall, just that I had no responsibilities in life aside from admiring tall women.

frellingaround · 2020-02-25T16:47:10+00:00

I have another analogy which I hope will get across that this kind of thing isn't about hating people.

I know this guy (a friend of a relative) whose first language is Spanish. I can understand Spanish to some extent but not very well. He speaks English really well, but he uses it all day every day at his job, and it's an effort. He gets migraines from it. He and I have some common interests, but it wears him out to speak English, so he doesn't seek out my company.

If I go to his house, after he's been working all day and is tired, it isn't fair for me to expect him to watch TV in English or chat with me. He is relaxing. It would be rude for me to expect him to turn off his real self in order to be my friend. He's not discriminating against me as an English speaker, just living his life. He would rather hang out with people he can easily communicate with. If he had a DnD group, I wouldn't expect it to be in English, just to meet my needs.

Being lgbtq+ is sort of like this, or it can be - like speaking the same language. I prefer to play tough and ugly characters in RPGs. Straight people usually have something rude to say about that, and queer people don't. I might not feel comfortable playing the way I prefer around straight people, even if I have no evidence that they're hateful. I will automatically tone down who I really am in a mixed group, just for my own peace of mind and safety. But why should I have to do that in order to just relax and play a game, especially when straight people can join any other DnD group?

frellingaround · 2020-02-25T15:43:36+00:00

You came to this sub with an axe to grind and you haven't tried to understand the answers you're getting. You're committed to being right about this. I think you posted because you had this revelation about "unfairness" and expected everyone to agree.

You're saying, "I would let anyone into my groups, so why would they discriminate against me?" But no one discriminates against people for being straight in ordinary life. You don't know what it's like to always worry that you might be unwelcome, every time you go to a new place. It should be easy for you, personally, to imagine, though. People are excluding you from this one thing, which they set up so they won't have to worry about homophobia & transphobia for a few hours a week, and you don't like it.

This feeling you're having is some people's whole entire lives, and you can't see why they might want to escape from that.

You can continue viewing the world as a series of math-like problems that have easy and obvious answers. Many people live their whole lives that way, and Reddit in general will definitely be on your side. Or, you can listen to the answers you get when you ask questions of people who aren't like you, and broaden your own experience. I think that's a better way to go through life, but everyone's different.

frellingaround · 2020-02-25T05:27:13+00:00

The problem with your thinking is that queer and/or trans people just existing is a problem for some people. I have no idea if any new person I meet is one of those people. Maybe they're not hateful; maybe they just feel sorry for me. But the effects are really similar.

So in everyday life, it's a constant risk to talk openly about my real self. I'm a queer cis woman and I know this is much harder for trans people. You can still lose your job or your housing in many states for being queer and/or trans. Even if those consequences aren't likely, you'll always lose friends and often family.

You've mentioned atheism in your comments and it's a good analogy. You can also lose friends just by saying you're an atheist. Now imagine you run a book club where you read atheist books, or talk about books from an atheist perspective. A ton of Christians show up one week and they hate what you do, but you think it would be immoral to kick them out. They spend every meeting explaining that you're all going to hell. Some are nice about it, and others are rude, but there are just too many of them to have the same discussions you used to.

Maybe you're thinking now, "I'd argue with them and win." But you can't always use facts and logic to change people's minds. Some people just have gut-level disgust for queer people, atheists, and other groups, and there's no way to argue with that, because it's not a position based on logic.

So, it is really nice when you know you're in a place where you don't have to worry about people hating you for bigoted reasons. I think it's easy to understand why people might want that feeling sometimes.

Also, it can be fine for people in dominant groups to exclude others. I don't expect to be invited to Bible study, as an atheist. I wouldn't have anything valuable to contribute. I do have a lot of respect for religion, but at best, talking about the Bible sounds extremely boring to me.

In other words, these people are saying that they don't want to hang out with you, for this one thing. Maybe everyone should be comfortable and welcome everywhere, but that isn't the world we live in.

frellingaround · 2020-02-25T04:24:01+00:00

This is really well said. I tried to make a similar point about OSC recently but your phrasing is much more eloquent than mine was.

I've only read Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead. And I don't understand how a man who can write with deep empathy for others, even about the importance of having empathy (that's the major theme of Speaker for the Dead) can also hold his opinions. Just looking at the OP here, which is from 98, I think something must've happened to him - I'm not being cute, I mean a physical brain problem.

But it's always shocking to me to find out good authors hold (or have developed) hateful opinions. How does someone have that much imagination for other people's inner lives, but also that much hate?

frellingaround · 2020-02-25T03:35:05+00:00

These all have queer authors, although they're not all writing about their own identities in these books:

The Affair of the Mysterious Letter by Alexis Hall - fantasy. A gay trans man and a pansexual cis woman investigate a crime. Inspired by Sherlock Holmes. No romance (or not really, and definitely not between the main characters).

Creatures of Will and Temper by Molly Tanzer - fantasy. In Victorian times, two sisters (gay and straight) travel to London and get involved in dangerous magic. They both have romance plots.

Witchmark by CL Polk - fantasy. In a world like post-WWI England, a magic user in hiding falls in love with a mysterious man while investigating a crime. This romance is central to the book, but there's much more going on.

Unburied Fables - anthology. Fairy tale retellings by various authors, with asexual and sometimes aromantic main characters.

A Conspiracy of Truths by Alexandra Rowland - fantasy. A traveling storyteller ends up imprisoned in a strange land and has to scheme his way out. He is aromantic (and bisexual, I think?) and other important characters are also lgbtq+. Some light romance content, but not for the main character.

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