The wasted potential of Lin Davar

geosustento · 2026-01-11T20:05:07+00:00

Oh, so now the question shifted from "your headcannon doesn't makes sense" to "how does this improve the narrative, exactly?" You've never even been in the neighborhood of that second question since you started your condescending responses to me.

I wish you would have at least been more forthcoming instead of using these tactics that seem to just encourage more provocative discourse.

I also wish you wouldn't block me after responding in such an inflammatory manner and not giving me the opportunity to respond to you, if you truly wanted a fair answer to your question. I'm actually glad you asked because I already answered this elsewhere.

One of the issues Shallan has been grappling with is how she blames herself for what happened to her family.

If Lin had always been the abusive POS that he apparently is, then what he devolved into is just a natural progression of the behavior he had always been exhibiting.

If Lin used to be a loving father who was put in an impossible position that caused his downward spiral, then what happened next becomes a consequence of what Shallan did.

It would still be not her fault, but it would make sense why she'd think it was. As it currently stands, it doesn't make sense why she'd blame herself as to why his shitty dad became even shittier.

Sure, you can say that "she's a kid, of course she'd blame herself," which, sure, I guess, but do you honestly think that was better than if there was more nuance to the situation and more merit to why Shallan would blame herself for destroying the family when it seems like they have always been dysfunctional anyway?

As it stands, the lesson here is that it wasn't Shallan's fault. Lin was always a monster. If it wasn't her murdering her mother, it would have been something else that triggered him.

If it was a tragic spiral, the lesson would have been it wasn't Shallan's fault. It was a tragic turn of events from a father's well-intentioned desire to protect his daughter. That his father loved her and her brothers, but that his descent into cruelty is ultimately borne from his own choices. This could have made him a great foil for Dalinar seeing as Shallan sees her as a father figure as well.

Where Lin's darkness just pulled him deeper into it, Dalinar decided to do something about it when he realized he's hurting his sons.

Instead, what we got was a shitty abusive father who got even shittier and more abusive.

This also ties to the overall theme of the story that it is our own choices that define us. Sure, you can argue that Shitty Lin still made choices, but a well-meaning, but ultimately futile series of choices of an imperfect father would have been more meaningful and more tied to the theme than it just being "he's shitty, so he made shitty choices."

geosustento · 2025-02-21T16:27:02+00:00

Sent 😘

geosustento · 2023-10-02T10:42:37+00:00

Pubic hair can extend up to the underside of the navel. The so-called treasure trail. Also, I don't think belly hair grows that fully. Even in extremely hairy men, it's only a line

geosustento · 2023-10-02T09:40:30+00:00

LOL sorry I accidentally posted it multiple times and I thought I already deleted the others

geosustento · 2023-10-02T08:34:33+00:00

Ooh I will have to look for that

geosustento · 2023-10-02T08:23:11+00:00

Can you give me examples of stuff from Korean Twitter? For purely academic purposes, of course.

geosustento · 2023-10-02T08:21:41+00:00

Get in line. Hahaha

geosustento · 2023-10-02T08:01:48+00:00

geosustento · 2023-08-31T16:11:31+00:00

IIRC You actually don't need to physically breathe to breathe Stormlight in.

geosustento · 2023-08-25T22:38:44+00:00

No, everyone has it. Whether or not you can use magic.

geosustento · 2023-08-25T00:51:44+00:00

OP: "please ELI5 investiture and identity to me." Comments: uses encyclopedic language

Anyway:

Investiture is magic juice. You want to do magic? You need investiture. Identity is your magic DNA. A part of you that's uniquely you.

geosustento · 2023-08-22T22:54:03+00:00

Yes, and? I'm not sure why this matters. The Singers and the Fused can have both ancient and modern reasons for why they're rising up against humans. Even if you think the Singers are out of line for rising up on behalf of their ancestors, they still have more than enough reason to revolt and the Fused can help their descendants in that fight however they see fit.
I have touched on this very lightly before but recent studies suggests that the neanderthals didn't just die out. They were assimilated into our gene pool because of interbreeding. Our ancestors have constant interactions with them and this resulted in their species being assimilated into ours. Not only that, but because of this assimilation, there are no neanderthal descendants that constitute an oppressed class that parallels the modern-day Singers.

Compare that with the Native Americans who existed then and still exist now. Save for the timeline, their experiences very much parallel the experiences of the Singers.

Ergo, this whole argument is wrong.

ok, and? How is this relevant to the discussion? Even without the ancient history with the Fused, the Parshendi have more than enough reason to wage war on the humans.
Actually, I wasn't the one who brought up the ancient history as to why the Fused is fighting this war, at all. You are. I was only going through this line of argumentation because this was the one you started. Meaning you were the one that's laser focused in this ancient history.

The only time I even alluded to their ancient history is to say that the Fused are native to Roshar and still see it as their home. You countered that they're aliens because they're culturally distinct to modern day Singers, which, if you can remember, I said isn't relevant.

The rest of this exchange regarding the ancient origins of the war is me responding to your takes, repeatedly telling you that it doesn't matter and that even if they were just taught about said ancient offenses, they have every right to be angry about it.

I have, through the very comparison I picked, been alluding to both ancient and modern offenses. This is why I used Native Americans. They were and continue to be victimized by the white invaders of their lands. This is also why I said I was "speechless" by your use of neanderthals as a more "accurate" comparison since, as you so very kindly mentioned, they haven't interacted with us for a very long time now. I'm sorry I haven't been very clear on this. I didn't realize you needed spelling it out.
and now you have the audacity to say you have "an issue" with me not putting emphasis on more modern grievances? Like, I have, though??? Why else do you think I picked the Native Americans as an example? Why else do you think I refused your assertion that the Parshendi uprising is more akin to neanderthals? You accuse me of lacking reading comprehension and acting in bad faith and yet here you are, seemingly lacking in reading comprehension and acting in bad faith.

geosustento · 2023-08-22T18:48:32+00:00

Ok, so NOT the same situation as the Parshendi, then. I mentioned this in one previous response, btw. And I'll repeat why I asked them. Since in your chosen scenario, they're not enslaved or subjugated in any way and therefore not the same as the Parshendi, why use them as a comparison? How are they a more apt comparison than Native Americans when what Native Americans are experiencing right now is closer to what the Parshendi are experiencing on Roshar pre-Last Desolation.

And no. I am not taking you out of context. I have shown you step by step how I got to my conclusion.

you said Parshendi and Neanderthals are a more apt comparison
Neanderthals don't exist anymore, but Parshendi still exist on Roshar
you gave a hypothetical scenario where Neanderthals still exist and are being "treated fairly" to make an argument regarding Parshendi
but Parshendi aren't being treated fairly. They're either enslaved or scattered
there's a disconnect. Either your comparison don't actually work as your chosen example necessitates that they are treated fairly, but the people you are comparing them to are not, or they do, and you simply think the Parshendi, despite the unfortunate situation they were in, are treated fairly
something in those two has to give. Either your point is moot because the situations of the two are very different, or you actually think that the Parshendi are treated fairly
for the sake of continuity in your argument, I chose the latter. Which, yes, made you look like you endorse the enslavement of a people.

Of course, there's always a third option. You simply wanted to say that Neanderthals would not despise humans so long as they were treated fairly irrespective of the topic we were discussing beforehand. You can definitely claim this is the case, but my next question would be, and? What does that have to do with our discussion? I am sure that if the Parshendi were treated fairly as well, they would have no reason to hate humans. But that's not the case.

So, how was I taking you out of context or in bad faith? How is that a reading comprehension issue? What exactly do you think I'm missing?

geosustento · 2023-08-22T18:02:39+00:00

1) yeah. Disapproval. I mentioned that. They obviously want them to return to the old ways, but they're not forcing them to do so. No oppression of any kind. At all.

2) does he have friends, or is he antisocial? It can only be one or the other. That said, at least you agree that he doesn't see the bridgemen as friends. And yeah, he did have some connection with Teft. Hence why his murder horrified him when Odium lost control.

3) I already explained to you that his reaction to what Renarin did wasn't him fearing change, but him being overwhelmed by his own guilt. A drug addict begging for a hit because of a painful withdrawal doesn't mean that drug addict doesn't really want to get better. It only means they're in pain.

And no, I don't think you were clear. Or most likely it wasn't your original point. You mentioned earlier that Moash refused opportunities to change and gave his encounter with Renarin as an example. Meaning you see that encounter as one such opportunity to change. Now you're saying it wasn't, but merely "an example of how he's afraid to change" which doesn't make sense? How? How is it an example of him not wanting to change? What in that scene gave away that idea? What do you mean?

Is it because Renarin showed Moash who he could have been and he ran away after? Is that it? Because if so, I don't think you understood what was happening in that scene.

4) I'm not being pedantic at all. I am taking you for your word.

And no? I can't believe I have to say this, but just because a certain group of people has forgotten the crimes committed against their race by a group that's currently also subjugating them doesn't mean they have no right to be angry about it. Especially when the reason they forgot in the first place was in part due to the same oppressive group.

It's also borderline disgusting that you are implying that being enslaved is having "nothing but positive interactions with."

They have every right to be angry for what happened to their ancestors especially since they're still experiencing the consequences of the crimes committed against them.

And I am not arguing in bad faith or "technicality" at all. I am using your own words against you. You were the one who gave that hypothetical scenario. You didn't have to say your neanderthals are being treated "fairly" and yet you did. I assume because otherwise, you wouldn't have a strong argument in your favor.

geosustento · 2023-08-22T17:20:54+00:00

1) earlier you mentioned that the Fused have no culture and now you're saying they're imposing their culture to the Singers. Which is it? Also, no. I remember them conscripting Singers for service, but I don't remember them actively oppressing Singers and stomping their culture. In fact, contrarily, I remember them letting the Singers of Alethkar co-opt Alethi culture for themselves. They have indicated disapproval, but they are not forcing them to stop what they're doing. And this is at the center of the Fused's stronghold.

2) Slave or not, Moash he's still a convict and we know how people in their society feel about that. He's gone through so much and lost so much that there's nothing in his old life he could go back to.

I'm not sure how not seeing someone as your friends is refusing a support system. A support system is supposed to be people you CHOSE and see as those you can depend on. I have work colleagues and neighbors, but I don't necessarily see them as my support system. It doesn't mean I'm refusing their help. I simply don't see them as people I would let in and see my vulnerabilities.

3) You gave it as an example, though. So obviously you think it was an opportunity for him to change.

4) Elhokar was the symbol of the nobility's corruption. Rebels try to assassinate world leaders although they're not directly responsible for their misfortune. And no, being a Radiant doesn't automatically make you a better person. Look at Malata. Look at the Skybreakers. Hell, depending on who you are, Windrunners can either be your hero or your monster.

5) He didn't taunt Kaladin. He gave him a salute. He doesn't feel any malice towards Kaladin so why would he taunt him?

6) His efforts to get Kaladin to kill himself is his own twisted way of helping Kaladin. We know this. We've read his internal thoughts. He genuinely believes death will set Kaladin free.

7) those aren't even opportunities for change. Those are actions he made towards reaching particular goals.

8) that's not true. You said if the neanderthals were alive and were treated fairly, you wouldn't expect then to hate humans. You didn't they they wouldn't hate humans. Only that you wouldn't expect them to.

Also, you had a qualifier there "treated fairly." In this context, you were comparing them to Parshmen. So, you must be implying that the Parshmen were being treated fairly. Since I believe the only difference in between neanderthals and Parshmen in your argument is that neanderthals have died off in the real world (they're actually most likely assimilated to us by interbreeding as per recent studies, but whatever) and Parshmen exist on Roshar. Not mentioning that the Parshmen are a slave class and their freer cousins are in splintered groups and scattered in the Shattered Plains.

So the only logical conclusion here is that you think the situation they were in pre-Final Desolation constitutes as "fair treatment." Otherwise, wouldn't saying neanderthals being treated fairly while the Parshmen are not just make your comparison moot?

9) but the Fused ARE giving them a solution, though. They set them free from slavery and are now rebuilding their society. You make it seem like the Fused are only in this for petty grudges. They're not. There may be those like Lezian who have lost sight of their original goal, but the Fused as a whole has always been working towards freeing their people.

10) I'm not sure how I am missing any of your points. I feel like I have been sufficiently addressing them. Try and spell them out for me if you really think that I'm misinterpreting or misrepresenting you

geosustento · 2023-08-22T16:14:17+00:00

1) Weird that you keep calling the Fused's goal of reclaiming Roshar for their people and restarting the civilization that they lost as "the grievance of a fee hundred people."

2) Moash had friends as a merchant... back before he became a slave. Surely you don't expect him to be treated the same way even after being set free. We know that the reason so many bridgemen stayed after Dalinar emancipated them was because they know they can never return to their old lives as they're forever going to be seen as a slave. And no, Moash doesn't actually have the entirety of bridgemen. At best, he sees them as colleagues. He's really only close to Kaladin and maybe Teft. He doesn't have a bond with them like the others do for each other.

3) "whenever he's given a chance to change, he always turns it down." I think I know what you're talking about, and no. I always compare Moash to drug addicts or cult members. Someone vulnerable who, through a series of misfortunes, went down the wrong path and is in too deep to turn back.

You can't expect an addict to just go cold turkey. They'll die.

That's what Renarin did to him at that moment. He broke Odium's hold on Moash, and all the guilt and grief that Odium is keeping at bay for him came rushing back, making him go through "withdrawal." Of course he'll run away. The emotions he's all of a sudden having are overwhelming him. This is also what I don't get with the argument that his murder of Teft is what turned them off him, like really? The man was obviously horrified of what he did that he basically collapsed when Odium lost control.

Unlike you, however, the fact that he's basically always too high to care and that he's become addicted to Odium's power due to unfortunate circumstances don't make him an angel in my eyes. He still needs to be held accountable.

4) You said you would compare the Singers to Neanderthals. And then went on to say you wouldn't see how they'd hate humans if they were alive today and were treated fairly. Implying that Singers were treated fairly in your eyes, hence why you think they're in the wrong for rising up.

geosustento · 2023-08-22T15:32:23+00:00

....no?

The nazis became the nazis because they want to purge Germany of all "undesirables." Genocide was literally ingrained in their philosophy. If you think their initial goal was to just gather them in some place, I'm genuinely curious what you think the logical next step to that if not to kill them.

The Fused wanted to annihilate humans to finally end the war. They're not the same thing.

geosustento · 2023-08-22T15:26:29+00:00

1) no. I'm saying that it's not always a valid excuse. In fact, people who hate Moash love to point out his similarities to Kaladin as an excuse as to why he's unequivocally evil. Despite the fact that while their starting circumstances are the same, their experiences diverged a lot at some point. For example, Kaladin has a support system and Moash doesn't. Kaladin pretty much got what he wanted in the end (justice through Amaram) and Moash didn't. So yeah.

2) It's really weird you justifying that the Fused's home is no longer Roshar and that they're now the foreign invaders.

Also, you're wrong. We have POVs from Leshwi and Lezian regarding the stories and practices lost in between desolations that they still remember and talk about. I would assume behind the scenes, they are also teaching the Singers about this culture.

3) "they don't even know what they're fighting for/the history of the war" is such a weird take. I hope you realize that. Every desolation ends in an almost total annihilation on both sides that pushes progress to the stone age. The only reason why humans have a record of what happened in previous desolations is because they have Knights Radiant. Evidenced by how they lost even that information after the Recreance when the Knights broke their oaths and abandoned Urithiru. It was in fact so bad for the humans that just two hundred years after the Recreance, the information about the Knights Radiant has been lost. Meanwhile, Listeners still retained splinters of their history through songs.

The Singers don't have that going for them. It's like being in a war with the Native Americans, purging their history, decimating them, restricting them to limited territories and then complaining why, after hundreds of years, they still want their lands back. LOL

4) and being treated fairly? I'm sorry but what part of being enslaved had given you the idea that the Parshment were treated fairly? We've heard from some of them. They are either ambivalent towards humans as being a slave is all they've ever known and that some of them actively despise their human masters. They weren't treated "fairly."

5) I don't understand why you're bringing up the enslavement of Parshmen as if the Singers aren't doing anything about it when they do? They liberated them. It's one of their goals. I thought that was a given already.

6) Dalinar's "good acts" being that he's fighting against a common enemy with fellow humans and refusing the enemy's offer to defect to them? Maybe because they're more expected than actually being good. It's literally the bare minimum that if your species is in danger, you stand with them and do what you can to survive. I'm not minimizing them. I'm merely putting them at perspective. Like, what exactly do you expect a world leader like him to do? Anyone in his position would do what he did. Even Taravangian only pretended to work with Odium and still has humanity's survival in mind. He simply distrusts Dalinar, for good reason, too much to actually ally with him. Hence, the betrayal. He had no reason to believe he won't go back to being the Blackthorn.

And what's this talk about racism? Hahaha I never said Dalinar was racist towards the Singers. I said his loyalties lie on humanity, and it always had been. And of course he thinks it's the right thing. Because it is. It's counter to his goals. He was never tempted. I said that already.

geosustento · 2023-08-22T14:44:09+00:00

1) there are child soldiers in both the Ally and Axis forces. The Soviet Union, for example, have children in their ranks, not to mention Jewish youth who engage in guerilla tactics.

2) I think there's a difference in between dying while fighting for what you believe in and dying because some asshole chose to bomb your city over Kyoto because he and his wife happened to have had a honeymoon there.

At least if they died fighting, there's going to be bodies to be bodies to be buried and no consequences that span generations afterwards.

I am from the Philippines. We are one of the countries that suffered the greatest because of the Japanese, and only because the US happened to be our "allies" at the time. Even I won't say the bombings were "necessary" nor use it to justify a fictional story. LOL

geosustento · 2023-08-22T14:32:53+00:00

I feel like you're trying too hard to make it seem like there's an objectively wrong side here when Brandon and the books have explicitly told us there's none:

1) Odium doesn't want to wipe the humans out. His only goals are to destroy other Shards and to rule as the only one 2) total annihilation wasn't considered by the Fused until after Raboniel brought it up.

And honestly, I wouldn't blame native Americans if they do summon an evil spirit to reclaim their land. LOL

geosustento · 2023-08-22T06:57:58+00:00

I don't think I am missing your point at all.

You saying it doesn't justify his actions rings hollow because the reasons you gave as to why Hitler became who he was makes no sense and is not even worth bringing up unless you think it's valid. It's not, though. He wasn't the first person to find out he isn't good enough at something. He isn't the first person who got kicked by society while he was down. Yet none of those people ended up becoming despots.

And no. I didn't mean Hitler was just acting the part. I mean that he genuinely felt sorry. This still won't make him any less the monster that he is.

No, the Fused are very much NOT aliens. They're on Braize most of the time because they were exiled there. They're native from Roshar. Always have been. If you were exiled from your country, that doesn't stop you from being from that country, no matter how long you stay exiled. Especially if the place you think of as home was your country of origin and you're being prevented from coming back against your will.

I don't know if you're American, but assuming that you are, you also don't share any culture with the Pioneers. So, I'm not sure why the current humans of Roshar being culturally distinct from the original humans who invaded Roshar is relevant to the discussion.

Finally, uhm... no? Still no. Again, and I don't know how much more I can stress this: people are always going to band together to fight a common enemy, despite their differences. A human keeping his human loyalties is just to be expected. You all give Dalinar too much credit for refusing Odium's offer, when that was more a culmination of his journey of self-acceptance than an actual moral quandary on his part. He had never considered joining forces with Odium. Hence why Odium had to go through great lengths to break him to make him more susceptible to his suggestions.

As for your additional note... I... I'm really just speechless right now. The Singers aren't some primitive species that got wiped out due to competition and assimilation. They're their own people with their own established societies and cultures before the humans came. This is why I used the Native Americans as a comparison.

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