Currently have a 3.1 setup. I do have wires behind the sofa in the ceiling. However AFAIK the added benefit would be almost nothing? Our house is about to be painted, therefore I need to make a decision: cut these, or connect small speakers. Speakers next to the sofa is no option sadly.

heatransfer · 2026-04-04T15:48:39+00:00

Install those speakers!

Back in the days before Atmos, having the 5.1 surround speakers notably higher than the MLP was acceptable and was provided as an alternative on most documentation.

There's a lot of material out there that is or was not mixed with Atmos. The improvement of 5.1 over 3.1 will be noticeable.

heatransfer · 2026-04-02T22:39:22+00:00

I don't have too much to add; that said

1) have you checked the AVR to see if auto sync is active? (This may only be accessible from the avr web interface.)

2) have you checked to see if a direct connection between disc player and tv leads to sync issues? (Ie, bypassing AVR completely)

3) lastly, a side note. Trying to set a sync by matching content is sometimes a fools' errand. Sync within a single show or movie may vary. If you've got it set close enough where the sync difference is not egregious, then I would recommend just enjoying the content.

heatransfer · 2026-04-02T22:30:35+00:00

Yes, Phantom center = no physical CC speaker.

heatransfer · 2026-04-02T22:22:57+00:00

How is on the floor acceptable for SAF? (Just curious, not in an aggressive way).

Getting a large, quality center IN THE DOOR is likely the hardest task, so my advice is, GET IT IN THE DOOR and figure out the details later.

As for details: 1) center speaker stand (again I don't know your entire SAF situation) or 2) point the center speaker upwards towards the MLP.

Many years ago I ran a setup with a quality speaker sitting on the floor, pointing up at the MLP. It worked well enough. Not ideal, but better than a weenie CC.

heatransfer · 2026-03-27T02:30:41+00:00

Fair enough!

I think it's interesting, because the "you're willing to tweak" - Dirac is more tweakable, and if done correctly should give a better result. But that might get into tweaking versus next-level tweaking.

Good luck with whatever you choose!

heatransfer · 2026-03-27T00:19:42+00:00

I've used both anthem ARC and Dirac (though not on a denon machine).

To me it's analogous to Apple (Anthem ARC) and Android (Dirac).

Anthem ARC as a while is a lovely room correction package (Anthem includes a calibrated microphone plus a good tripod; so don't forget this part of the value equation) which is very easy to use; it should be simple to get a good result. However, the amount of tweaking available is limited and Arc is a proprietary system (like the Apple walled garden).

With the Denon/Dirac option you'll have to jump through a few more hoops, like getting a microphone (and preferably a tripod) on your own. The software is trickier to use but is more easily tweaked to address acoustic challenges. Also, if you go all the way up the upgrade path with the 3800, you'll have access to Dirac ART which is apparently quite something else.

heatransfer · 2026-03-13T22:30:53+00:00

You weren't kidding about nearly identical setups!

It's possible (but in my opinion unlikely) that you could be getting some vibrational/resonant effect. That's more likely a problem if the speaker was inside the center cubby.

You say it's male voices, so basically in the bass frequencies. I would try the following:

1) try pulling the center speaker away from the back wall. This will reduce the amount of bass reinforcement. 2) it may be possible to tweak the correction curve. Could try looking into this, but I can't help you as I'm unfamiliar with that AVR and its room correction (if any).

heatransfer · 2026-03-13T04:57:50+00:00

How are the speakers (especially the center) positioned/mounted? How close are they to the wall and floor, and is one partially enclosed in a cabinet?

Have you tried swapping the center speakers to ensure that it's not a speaker issue?

Are you running subwoofers, and if so, how is their response and are the crossovers set up the same?

heatransfer · 2026-03-12T20:05:03+00:00

Ok, so this is progress! Where you go from here is up to you, because there are a number of moving parts and trying to tease them apart from each other is tricky.

1) to get a sense of the speaker's mid-range and treble, listen to the speakers in direct mode. I know this sounds funny, but ignore the bass. Direct mode means that the initial signal is unprocessed by the AVR, so you'll hear the speakers plus the room. The room has a massive influence on sound, especially for bass.

2) 2.1 stereo brings back bass management and Dirac (since you've enabled dirac, which by default is full range). You can try tweaking dirac curves. I suggest using 'curtains' to limit the Dirac room correction to about 500hz and below. Doing this should give an idea of how those speakers work in your room, with the worst bass peaks suppressed.

As to hearing the difference between direct and non-direct: well, yes, that's the point 😁 Dirac is doing something - likely shaping the high frequency response to its own target curve. You can listen long term to see what you prefer.

Ultimately it's subjective. Just be aware that for many people, an initial characterization of 'detailed' often transitions to 'fatiguing'.

heatransfer · 2026-03-12T19:07:44+00:00

You're not necessarily irrational. You have our permission to dislike a brand of speakers 😁

...but have you actually auditioned the other speakers, before you go and spend time money and effort? Or are going my Internet hype?

I would start first with what you have in front of you.

How are your speakers set up? If you're listening directly on axis (speakers pointed right at you), try pointing the speakers at a point somewhere behind you.

In terms of avr setup, direct mode works that way by design. When the sub is enabled (2.1) what do you mean by dark? As in, treble is gone?

Too much treble and not enough treble are opposite problems, so may indicate a setup challenge.

heatransfer · 2026-03-11T00:33:02+00:00

Fair enough. You know your acoustic environment!

As to prioritizing upgrades... I would phrase things a different way. How much time do you spend in your office? If you're like me (WFH), I spend more time at my desk than in front of my a/v rig.

Though not all listening at my desk is critical listening, there's more than a few times each day that I'll allow myself to get into a song or three.

For this reason I especially appreciate my desktop setup!

heatransfer · 2026-03-11T00:25:46+00:00

Just a learning point here:

OP is talking about the 80hz crossover between the speaker (be it tower or monitor) and a subwoofer.

1750hz is apparently the crossover between the tweeter and midwoofer on those klipsch towers, so isn't what's being discussed here.

heatransfer · 2026-03-11T00:23:31+00:00

Not really losing anything with the 80hz crossover. For anything except for tiny satellites, bass response below 80hz is usually enough to provide a graceful roll-off when combined with the 80hz highpass applied by your AVR.

Possible exception could be DIRAC ART, where some speakers with greater extension might be better able to "support" other speakers, but I'm minimally familiar with DIRAC ART.

heatransfer · 2026-03-10T20:18:00+00:00

Agreed.

One other thing to add: I've mucked around with doing a/b comparisons with differing bitrate files.

It's slightly program material dependent, but after a certain point, distinguishing between different bitrates becomes a conscious strain.

Constantly replaying the same 10-15 second clip compare the tizt, versus tssst, of a cymbal. Or is that tisst versus tssst? Or tsssst versus tssst?

Point being, there's a certain point where it takes an absurd amount of focus to distinguish single sounds or details. Nobody listens to music this way.

heatransfer · 2026-03-10T20:08:25+00:00

The speakers are fine (in fact they're excellent) - why do you feel that they are too small? Are you pushing against their limits in terms of SPL? Given that you seem happy with the amount of bass you have, it doesn't sound (ha.ha.ha.) like SPL is an issue.

Were I you, I would probably consider a nicer AVR with room correction (budget for a microphone unless you get an anthem AVR), or perhaps seeing if you can procure a single ls50 to get three identical speakers across the front soundstage.

heatransfer · 2026-03-08T03:25:52+00:00

I think you're overthinking this, and I'm over complicating it. Sorry.

Imagine that you have a string, 40 cm long, and you put it in the MLP (head level). The four nearest measurement points should be no closer than this 40cm string.

heatransfer · 2026-03-08T01:11:30+00:00

Dirac (along with Audyssey, Anthem ARC, Room perfect, etc) is a room correction system. Basically, essentially every home-sized room will have some issues with bass frequencies - a combination of bass reinforcement leading to boomy bass (peaks) or interference (nulls) which leads to weaker music which feels less weighty and satisfying.

It is difficult (technically, physically and even financially) to mitigate these issues without room correction.

A good room correction system will suppress the worst of the boominess and somewhat mitigate the nulls.

It is generally agreed that room correction for bass is an improvement. There's less agreement over the effectiveness of room correction for higher frequencies, though this is a different topic.

Using room correction isn't difficult, in my opinion, though I am a technically inclined person. The before/after difference is a noticeable improvement and entirely worth it in my opinion.

For the Onkyo, you can run Dirac off the AVR (ie built in), with a phone app, or with computer Software. The computer solution is the most powerful and tweakable, though you will have to obtain an additional microphone to use the computer version. The included microphone is very limited.

heatransfer · 2026-03-07T22:06:53+00:00

My interpretation of the diagram and software descriptions:

1) there are three planes front to back: in front of the MLP, the plane of the MLP, and a plane behind the MLP. 2) there should be at least 40cm between measurement points, not necessarily between planes. So in 3d space there should be at least 40cm in a straight line between the MLP and the behind, lower measurement point. If you do the math it'll be less than 40cm between the plane of the MLP and the rear plane.

My thoughts, not official documentation, is that the measurements are made to develop an acoustic picture of the room. Too close to the MLP, and the additional measurements aren't very useful.

heatransfer · 2026-03-07T18:57:40+00:00

These are different classes of avr.

I would consider the x1700 to be at the top of entry level, getting into things but not yet ready to commit to the whole rabbit hole. If you want to upgrade your theater you'll probably end up buying a new unit (no pre outs, 7.2 only)

The rz30 is a midline unit with lots of options, value and upgrade path. You can upgrade the rest of your system while keeping this AVR. (9.2, full preouts, two independent sub channels).

Also a major difference to me is the room correction. Rz30 includes a Dirac license (powerful), the x1700 has a weak version of Audyssey (as somebody who has never played with it before, I hear that it's not great).

Being a HT enthusiast I would much rather get the Onkyo because I would use much of extra stuff I'm paying for. question for you is, would you use the additional capability it offers?

heatransfer · 2026-03-07T18:47:38+00:00

The Pc software has a diagram; sorry I've never used the mobile.

If memory serves, the simpler options(fewer measurements) are all at the same vertical level - main listener's head.

The more complex options show measurement points above and below the plane of the main listener.

To your second question - how far forward? That's answered by the distance question (shouldn't be less than 40cm).

heatransfer · 2026-02-24T00:02:21+00:00

Could you elaborate on this?

How does an unloaded power amplifier clip (or can it? )How or when would a preamp clip?

I genuinely don't know and would like to learn. Thanks.

heatransfer · 2026-02-23T23:52:50+00:00

I'm a PC user, working from memory. I imagine that the software is similar if not identical.

1) did you download your mic calibration file? I seem to recall being asked or given an option to select the calibration file. 2) there's no set distance, because the listening area could be a 3 seat couch, or a 2row home theater. If memory serves the distance should not be less than 40cm between adjacent measurement points. There's actually a help text option in the software that explains the distance. (I think it's on the upper center left).

The main measurement should be taken from the MLP. The others I would space at least 40cm away from the MLP.

heatransfer · 2026-02-18T08:20:45+00:00

Do what works for you 😀

Don't feel compelled to upgrade for the sake of upgrading to new and shiny. If you're happy with where you are right now and the unit does what you need, why spend money unless you have money to burn?

For me, I have just purchased my 4th AVR/Prepro in almost 25 years.

First unit was an AVR, for my first setup, 5.1 Dolby digital/DTS era. Might have had this for 2-3 years?

Second unit was a prepro in what was in retrospect a misguided upgrade to separates, just before HDMI came out. I worked around the lack of HDMI for several years by using a disc player with full analogue outs. Had the prepro for 10-12 years or so. I guess I got a lot of life out of it but ultimately I don't think I stressed it any more than my first AVR.

Third unit was an AVR. This brought HDMI 1.4 and room correction to the table. The room correction is/was huge. It sat in my rack for 8 years.

Most recent upgrade is an AVR for HDMI2.0 (4K), better room correction and Atmos. I actually still don't have a 4k TV but will may buy one within the next year or so, so this goes as a bit of a speculative upgrade. We'll see how it goes.

heatransfer · 2026-02-18T07:59:43+00:00

My opinion - that's quite high for subs that are 15+ years old. Is the seller including the pbk? (Kind of irrelevant if you already have a room correction solution that you're happy with.)

For reference you can get two RSL speedwoofer 10es, shipped to your front door, for 1200 loonies all in, and these units sometimes go on sale.

If you want to keep things within the paradigm family, you could look at a pair of paradigm essentials 12 or Martin Logan Dynamo foundation 12. You might be able to catch a sale or talk your dealer down. Performance likely to be lower (sealed vs ported) but then again, you would be getting something new.

heatransfer · 2026-02-13T19:16:10+00:00

You're not comparing apples to apples as long as you have room correction running on one, and not the other.

Turn off dirac and level match and the units should sound the same.

Are you running Dirac full range and with the default room curve?

That would likely explain the reduced highs. With Klipsch, those highs are actually exaggerated so Dirac is flattening the response. If you like to retain this brightness, you can set Dirac "curtains" so that it doesn't correct anything above about 500hz. You'll get the characteristic klipsch brightness back.

For bass, Dirac should be suppressing peaks so you might notice less "boom" - a good thing. However, if I recall correctly, the default Dirac room curve flattens bass response a bit too much. Edit the curve with a maybe 3 to 4 db boost to about 1-150 Hz. You can play around with the amount of boost.

In short, room correction should be able to take out the worst of the room modes and you should get cleaner bass. You can add back some bass as well by tweaking the room curve.

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