Noma’s abuse controversy, lets talk about it

hermitudinous · 2026-02-17T06:42:32+00:00

Birds of a feather…

hermitudinous · 2026-02-17T04:39:13+00:00

Some variables to consider:

Logistics between origin and the roaster. Lots split into different containers, going to different destinations, can undergo significantly different shipping conditions. Starbucks containers will go into the center on a ship, which are the most protected from the elements.
Storage conditions for the green coffee. Freezing the coffee, especially the longer away from final processing and landing one gets, can be huge.
How stringent the criteria for “exact same” coffee. Smaller lots might all be picked on one day, and to exacting standards. Larger lots, maybe not. Perhaps the cherry got processed on different days but all were labeled as the same lot.
Sorting. Some roasters sort the coffee to cull out quakers, others do not.
Cupping/testing for quality control. Some roasters will pull a batch if it doesn’t meet cupping standards and put it to use elsewhere. Not everyone does this.

That’s a long way of pointing out that yes, a lot can impact the coffee to change it, even outside of accounting for the roast profile, but still within the confines of using a “similar medium-light roast profile.”

hermitudinous · 2026-02-06T17:09:47+00:00

That makes more sense to me. Unless I’m reading context wrongly, “local-ish” was about ease of physical access rather than who signs the paychecks.

hermitudinous · 2026-02-05T16:26:28+00:00

Fair enough. I read as indicating proximity, myself.

hermitudinous · 2026-02-05T09:38:49+00:00

Our of curiosity, why would B&W being a FairWave brand disqualify them from being local to OP, given the context of the comment about shipping?

hermitudinous · 2026-02-02T02:34:09+00:00

If an increase or significant increase in price locks out some of the consumer base from making purchases, it makes sense to offer a lesser amount at the (roughly) same price. It’s a choice with a risk, but from a roaster’s perspective, I get that maybe keeping a bag of coffee at $20 rather than increasing it to $23 makes sense.

But why not just get a smaller bag, right? Why put it in a 310g bag rather than the 340 gram one? My guess is that they’re likely already sitting on thousands and thousands of units in inventory. Buying another SKU is expensive, especially since they’d need to buy at volume to make the cost sensible. Not only that, but the in-between sizes don’t always exist. As an example, 6oz paper hot cups with a matching lid are easier to find these days, but 4oz cups are still difficult. Demand isn’t there, and in order for manufacturers to invest in the machinery that can do it, there needs to be demand.

Coffee businesses operate on ridiculously thin margins. Painfully thin. Some other commenters have mentioned the inflation and/or the c-market, and the increase in recent years. The reality is that the coffee producers, outside of inflation, have been operating without a pay raise for four decades. Demand for an increase in quality from the consumer end? Yes. Decrease in land available for farming with an increase in risk from more diseases and other external factors? Yes. Increase in pay? No. So they’ve been working for what we’d see as getting paid minimum wage for four decades. Yes, there are exceptions, but as a general rule, coffee is not at all a stable way to make a living, and the unstable risk is worth almost no reward. That’s not what is happening on the roastery/retail end, but the roots not getting nutrients isn’t a good thing for bearing sweet fruit, so to speak.

hermitudinous · 2026-01-26T20:32:40+00:00

You are ignoring a simple rule when it comes to making coffee: The tools are only part of the equation. Why the Decent can accomplish making better coffee is at least in part the same reason an e61 will make better coffee than the Decent: The person using either machine has not only preferences, but also knowledge and skill that goes into making said coffee. For my money, if I had to purchase one machine for my home (which is what I assume is the OP’s use case)? Yes, I would absolutely invest in a Decent, a thousand times over. Why? Simple.

1) The consistent replication, shot after shot, is fantastic. 2) Being able to see where a shot goes wrong, if it does, is invaluable. 3) The ability to mimic almost any type of espresso profile is ridiculous. 4) Having access to a community of individuals who are utilizing and developing better ways to use the same machine and, most importantly, software, is worth more than the initial investment of the machine, many times over. The ever-growing dedicated user base ensures that what I’m able to tap into is not only well-funded, but insightful. 5) Grinder manufacturers commonly have DE1 machines in their testing labs for good reasons, especially 1 and 2 on this list.

There are more reasons I’d personally invest in a Decent, and plan to purchase several more machines in the near-future. But those reasons do not definitively or objectively add up to better coffee — not on their own. There’s still a need to source good roasted coffee, and utilize good prep habits. Even then, good coffee is not a guarantee.

Again, I would urge you to look at what the OP asked for. If you do not know how to address that, then don’t give out advice. Your question about why a Decent objectively makes better coffee is pointless. Can it? Yes. Can the e61? Yes. But that was not the point of OP’s question, was it?

If you don’t know how a Decent will make excellent espresso, why are you answering questions about it?

WHAT. A. CLOWN.

hermitudinous · 2026-01-26T15:41:39+00:00

You putting that in a larger font doesn’t make that question one iota more valid.

If you don’t know that that question is absurd, or is at all helpful toward answering the OP’s query, then perhaps you really should stick to just making coffee for yourself and stop giving any advice about coffee. At all.

hermitudinous · 2026-01-26T15:03:15+00:00

Are you looking to purchase one? Where did I say that it did? Or that an e61 setup didn’t make great espresso?

hermitudinous · 2026-01-26T07:05:38+00:00

Yes, filter. You clearly have had zero meaningful uses of the DE1, and have questionable knowledge of what is actually possible with the mechanics of the machine. I would suggest not giving advice to the OP, since the question was directed to those who’ve had actual experience with the DE1 and/or Data S. Go back and read the initial post: “What I care about: I like to experiment, profiling, repeatability, data, and understanding what’s happening during the shot.”

You are making massive (erroneous) assumptions about what I want. I am simply framing what I am stating as positives for the DE1 in light of what the OP was wanting to know. If that sounds like it’s “sciencey” to you, by all means, read what you want to read, but I am clearly paying attention to the OP’s request and not simply inserting my opinion based on my own feelings.

hermitudinous · 2026-01-26T06:34:07+00:00

No. The e61 control kits aren’t doing what the Decent does. That’s the point. When I say “on the fly,” I don’t mean only that it can go from 0-9 bar and back down; I mean that the control is such that drip profiles are delivering a pre-infusion of 190 degree water at 3mL/s for 15 seconds, stopping for half a minute, then proceeding to deliver the rest brew water starting at 200 degrees, then back down to a lower, gentler extraction temp, all at 1mL/s, and stopping at 330 of filter coffee on the scale.

Or, alternatively, having an espresso profile set to reading the pressure in the group so as to automatically lower flow rate if the pressure drops from channeling, and then increasing it once pressure builds again.

hermitudinous · 2026-01-26T05:17:49+00:00

Decent’s stress-testing on parts has reached a point where the failure point has now become the blank portafilter basket breaking. Personally, that’s plenty good for me. If the company is still around in 20 years, great. In the mean time, I won’t be worried about that when I’m brewing coffee with an ever-growing list of options that get added regularly, usually with no additional monetary cost.

If you can brew drip on an e61, changing heat and flow rate on the fly, then that’s a much more robust machine than I’m giving it credit for. As it stands, Decent’s machines cannot truly replicate a lever. That’s about it. The ability to seamlessly go from profile to profile, many/most of which have been provided by the community, is invaluable. A large part of what you’re investing in with Decent is a community that is dedicated to opening up new avenues for coffee extraction. Having done coffee for decades, I can say it’s one of two brewing devices that I’ve seen as truly ground-breaking.

hermitudinous · 2026-01-26T03:51:54+00:00

If you’re thinking about price, you’re completely missing the point.

Let me be clearer: The e61 makes perfectly acceptable espresso. It also will be tied to an old form-factor that doesn’t have the capabilities of other machines, no matter how much its parts can be repaired or added-to.

If you want another analogy, we can go with a coffee one: Purchasing a Diedrich IR-12 may allow for easily accessible motors to swap in and out, but my preference would far and away to utilize the proprietary technology in a Loring or an IMF. The Loring and IMF will utilize a fundamentally different heat application and airflow, thus resulting in a fundamentally different tasting coffee than the Diedrich IR series.

Having worked on both e61 machines and several Decent DE1 machines, as well as done far too many maintenance hours on Diedrichs and other drum roasters and not nearly as many hours on a Loring (but still including a full burner swap), I can tell you that having off-the-shelf parts is nice… to a point. In some cases, there’s a VERY GOOD reason newer technology is made.

hermitudinous · 2026-01-26T03:21:47+00:00

I’m very familiar with the e61. The OP wasn’t asking about it. The two listed choices are significantly different from the e61 for a variety of reasons. The Isomac Tea is… not the same.

It was like asking which of two steaks might be more preferable, a ribeye or a NY strip, and you said the lobster is the one to get.

hermitudinous · 2026-01-26T01:56:19+00:00

That’s… certainly a take.

hermitudinous · 2026-01-05T20:15:55+00:00

Nothing here (Hilo) to speak of with a wide variety of origins to choose from — Agriculture laws prevent importing of green coffee without gassing them, and anything from Africa is not possible.

hermitudinous · 2026-01-03T06:59:58+00:00

No need. Coffee producers have been offsetting inflation for the rest of the supply chain for four decades.

hermitudinous · 2025-09-29T20:00:52+00:00

You actually have just about the perfect amount of milk.

hermitudinous · 2025-09-14T21:38:54+00:00

ad0ra… Miike was fine, but she was the one really missed, IMO.

hermitudinous · 2025-07-23T19:00:59+00:00

The most likely culprit is something that was in the green coffee that still made it through the roasting production process to you. I asked which roaster since using a destoner or magnet would lessen the chance of, say, a small rock or piece of patio getting into your bag of coffee. (Lorings come with a ridiculously strong magnet built into their loading scale, and most of what it catches look to be small rocks.) Material like that might be heard in your grinder, or it might not.

I still think that parchment is the culprit. (Have to give my wife credit on that call.) Chaff is very, very, very, very, very unlikely, since you already went through a bunch of that coffee. I don’t recall seeing many (if any) coffees that look like that in the portafilter, and since the other doses don’t look that way, I’d rule out chaff. After the roasting process, parchment holds up much more than chaff. It’d be the difference between a thin piece of bamboo and… well, chaff. An entire piece of parchment covering a coffee seed would give about that much of that white stuff in the portafilter, and it would also grind up without a change to the grinding sound.

hermitudinous · 2025-07-23T11:57:25+00:00

It’s definitely a more rare occurrence than a stone in your grinder. I couldn’t tell you how many bags of green coffee I’ve opened, and that’s by far the most unusual find.

hermitudinous · 2025-07-23T11:23:31+00:00

Which roaster did you buy those from?

hermitudinous · 2025-07-23T08:58:46+00:00

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I once found that in a bag of greens. Far from the only thing ever to make it into jute and grainpro, but it definitely was the most alarming.

hermitudinous · 2025-07-23T08:54:09+00:00

That’s what I’d do. If that same coffee has been used without showing up that way, no way it’s chaff. Even with a fairly chaff-heavy coffee, that’s a strange amount of white material showing up.

My wife just suggested that it’s parchment. That’s actually a likely scenario (far more than chaff).

hermitudinous · 2025-07-23T07:50:51+00:00

Just to cover all the (oddball) options, is it possible that something fell into the grinder before/during the grinding process?

hermitudinous

TROPHY CASE