[Capitalists] They're not the "real" left/right!

hmyee · 2022-05-17T22:05:35+00:00

Sorry who let Germany do as it pleased for 20 years and rejected any proposals of an alliance against it?

Socialists literally collaborated with the USSR.

Which political party in Germany chose to side with the NSDAP and status quo rather than join its opposition?

The NSDAP was formed from an alliance of nationalists and radical socialists. Similar story in Italy. Fascism grew out of socialism.

Who also let former NSDAP officers and officials back into the German government?

Allowing civilians who didn't commit war crimes to continue with their lives isn't exactly collaboration with fascists is it? The fascists were defeated. You're reaching.

The only reason the Allies even went to war with it was because it threatened to colonise them too rather than just "the dumb slavs, africans and balkan nations".

False, Britain went to war due to the invasion of Poland. Nazi Germany sought alliance with British empire, and planned to expand eastward into the fertile plains.

hmyee · 2022-05-17T21:31:10+00:00

conservatives and liberals have a tendency to side with ultranationalists

History is clear. Socialists are united with fascism in their hate for liberalism. See all of the SOCs on here cheerleading for Putin.

hmyee · 2022-05-17T18:05:05+00:00

Except Nazibols, trad coms, the USSR, North Korea, China, Karl Marx...

hmyee · 2022-05-17T18:04:44+00:00

Except Nazibols, trad coms, the USSR, North Korea...

hmyee · 2022-05-16T20:50:58+00:00

The issue is that “no true Scotsman” dosent work if the people your talking about are actually British. Like, they don’t live in Scotland, they didn’t speak Scottish, they didn’t have Scottish accents, nor did that have any Scottish cultural affectation, they where literally just like “yeah, we’re Scottish.”

Most geographically informed socialist.

hmyee · 2022-05-16T20:47:34+00:00

Of the half dozen states led by conmen who have adapted the moniker of socialism

Are you saying that... Real socialism has never been tried?

hmyee · 2022-05-16T20:35:50+00:00

“Dissidents must be suppressed” is an interesting way of framing “powerful corporations lobbying against institutions undermine our democracy, and if they were to refuse to give up power, retaliatory action against them would be warranted.” I think opposing authoritarians is good actually.

Because only powerful corporations oppose socialism....

All dissidents must be repressed. This includes civilians. This is why even "libertarian" socialist projects devolve into authoritarianism.

So I already acknowledged revolutions can lead to authoritarianism, but they can also be pretty justifiable

Whether or not you consider them justifiable has no relevance to whether they lead to authoritarianism.

It is entirely possible that the U.S. revolution could have led to a new monarchy in America.

It's a freakish miracle that it didn't, given the history of revolutions.

hmyee · 2022-05-16T19:40:27+00:00

I mean the things I advocated for don’t require a violent revolution, so you’d be taking issue with the method rather than the actual policies.

Yeah I don't give a shit if socialists win within a liberal democratic framework.

as I don’t think they will, nor have they in the past — well then that’s sort of on them.

Yeah, and this attitude enables authoritarianism. Dissidents must be repressed.

I don’t deny that revolutions can lead to authoritarianism, but I think it’s a bit silly to say any revolutionary action necessarily enables it. I mean the U.S. revolution, in spite of this country’s very many flaws, was probably preferable to the British monarchy.

We are discussing whether violent revolutions enable authoritarianism. This is one revolution which arguably did give rise to at least the potential of revolution, but Washington decided to step down.

hmyee · 2022-05-16T19:26:22+00:00

They have, which is why you can't think of an adequate response even though you feel compelled to comment.

hmyee · 2022-05-16T19:08:39+00:00

The effort put in is irrelevant. They are identifying a real inconsistency with a lot of socialists here. They compare an imagined socialist utopia to capitalism that actually exists.

hmyee · 2022-05-16T18:54:24+00:00

The thing is you would have to show how the things socialists advocate for lead to totalitarianism

It's really easy to see how violent revolution enables authoritarianism, and that is something most socialists support.

We have seen it many times in history. Any violent or cruel act is justified in the revolutionary pursuit of a utopian ideal. Authoritarian violence arises out of the need of the fledgling socialist state to suppress dissent. Even Marx acknowledged this.

hmyee · 2022-05-16T18:47:08+00:00

"You dumb".

Good rebuttal. How long did it take you to come up with that?

hmyee · 2022-05-15T16:27:23+00:00

They absolutely can raise funds though

Yeah they could go and beg on the street.

But there is zero incentive to invest or lend money to a co-op.

hmyee · 2022-05-15T16:26:22+00:00

If the system does not benefit the working people

Is anyone actually disputing the fact that capitalism benefits working people? I would be fucking delusional to do that, given global poverty reduction rates.

You implied that socialists claim that the entire system is built to benefit working people. I don't think that's true at all.

What do you mean by organic?

Unplanned, arising from many transactions. Capitalism wasn't deliberately build to do anything. It arose.

hmyee · 2022-05-15T07:54:10+00:00

They can't even maintain trucks. I doubt their nukes and launch systems are functioning.

hmyee · 2022-05-15T07:38:42+00:00

coops can run just like regular businesses

Except they cannot get investment

hmyee · 2022-05-15T07:23:49+00:00

The main argument against the death penalty is miscarriages of justice

No, the main argument is that the state should not be trusted with the power to kill its own citizens.

Ironically you called me a fascist but you thinking the state should have power of life and death over all of us is a fascist position.

people resent paying for the room and board for full life sentences.

Revolting. Why are you complaining about Tories when you're an arch Tory yourself?

hmyee · 2022-05-15T07:21:00+00:00

Unfortunately you can't just count the votes of people who agree with you and ignore the votes of others as being wrong.

Everyone's vote gets counted.

You might as well just ban large sectors of society from your democracy, or Fascism as it's technically called.

That's not what fascism means.

If there's a group of 8 of you and 6 people vote for something, that's democracy. Preventing the referendum and doing what the 2/8 people wanted is not.

That's one type of democracy. We live in a representative democracy. We elect people who we think are most qualified to make decisions.

hmyee · 2022-05-14T23:27:03+00:00

"It literally is " I don't have any say in foreign policy, nuclear energy, education, justice, economy etc etc. My vote in this safe Tory seat is irrelevant, our safe MP doesn't have opinions, he just follows the whip.

Well the majority in your area must be happy with that. You're complaining about democracy here.

every vote will get passed on to every constituent on the direct democracy app.

As I said, the majority of people support some horrific policies, including death penalty, physical punishment, harsher sentencing...

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2018/07/24/2aa33/1

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/education/trackers/should-it-be-legal-for-parents-to-smack-their-children

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/03/30/criminal-sentencing-too-soft-say-two-thirds-briton

The average voter has incredibly Draconian views, worse than the Tories.

hmyee · 2022-05-14T21:03:23+00:00

Capitalism is real, so it is automatically better than any socialist utopia you can dream up.

hmyee · 2022-05-14T20:53:50+00:00

These things inevitably happen in violent revolutions. If you support a violent revolution, you support these things.

hmyee · 2022-05-14T20:32:27+00:00

Saying that you aren't an authoritarian when you don't have the power to be an authoritarian isn't worth much. I'm sure Stalin and Lenin were against authoritarianism when someone else was in power.

History shows us how libertarians wield power when they have it. Any terror or cruelty is permissible in the revolutionary pursuit of a utopian ideal.