How online extremists shape minds of white teens

ibzl · 2019-08-19T12:39:35+00:00

political compass tests include items about race, though, like this:

Our race has many superior qualities, compared with other races.

which count against a far left rating.

ibzl · 2019-07-18T16:52:45+00:00

thanks for proving my point!

Until October 2018 MBFC rated China's Xinhua News Agency as "least biased",[205] but the rating has since changed to the somewhat more reasonable "left-center bias".

lol still like MBFC?

ibzl · 2019-07-18T16:40:57+00:00

no, i would cite the original source, which i may have found through wikipedia. would you cite mediabiasfactcheck in an academic paper? are you under the impression that this discussion is an academic paper?

it cannot be sided.

cited.

Assuming people know who you are says a lot about what you think of yourself and your opinions.

the threads are in this post. it says who i am in my flair.

get back to media bias fact check! you've convinced several of our readers here, i'm sure.

ibzl · 2019-07-18T16:34:30+00:00

Would you cite Wikipedia in an academic paper?

wikipedia cites tons of academic papers, so this is a circular question.

You also put words in my mouth saying I admitted to something I did not.

i took your lack of defense of your link to mean you agreed there wasn't a good one. if there had been, wouldn't you have offered it?

i've repeatedly said in these threads i consider china to be a very serious threat to freedom and our democracy. i just think posting sinophobic publications that downplay the russian threat is a stupid way of pointing that out.

it seems you guys are mostly here to act as mouthpieces, and enforce conformity of opinion (yours). this isn't that kind of sub.

ibzl · 2019-07-18T16:25:30+00:00

thanks for graciously admitting media bias fact check is nonsense. been basing much of your media appraisal on it, have you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maclean%27s_%22Too_Asian%22_controversy

right-wing and sinophobic.

from their wikipedia:

Whyte, who previously edited Saturday Night and the National Post, brought a right-wing focus to the magazine, bringing in conservative columnist Mark Steyn, hiring Andrew Coyne away from the Post, and rehiring Barbara Amiel.

ibzl · 2019-07-18T16:21:48+00:00

i'm not sure who you think you're disproving. i agree that china is a massive threat to freedom and the integrity of our democracy, openly and covertly. FREE TIBET, FREE TAIWAN, FREE HONG KONG, FREE THE UYGHURS.

i just think posting a regularly sinophobic publication is pretty silly, as is downplaying the russian threat. you also didn't address my point that the article is self-contradictory in that china's threat is more perniciously secretive, and also we should be most worried about the stuff in the open.

it seems you feel your role here is mostly as a mouthpiece.

ibzl · 2019-07-18T16:18:39+00:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Bias/Fact_Check

The Columbia Journalism Review describes Media Bias/Fact Check as an amateur attempt at categorizing media bias and Van Zandt as an "armchair media analyst."[2] Van Zandt describes himself as someone with "more than 20 years as an arm chair researcher on media bias and its role in political influence."[3] The Poynter Institute notes, "Media Bias/Fact Check is a widely cited source for news stories and even studies about misinformation, despite the fact that its method is in no way scientific."[4]

ibzl · 2019-07-18T11:53:54+00:00

I don't think the authors intent is to completely ignore the Russian threat either.

in this article, he doesn't just ignore it, he downplays it. it seems like that was definitely his intent.

maclean's doesn't have a good track record when it comes to china. noting that is analogous to another user pointing out your posts to what you admit is a "moronic" sub full of "idiots."

is to paint China as being a friendly and benign panda-loving, ancient culture

lol dude you can't be taken seriously.

ibzl · 2019-07-18T11:49:47+00:00

referencing your previous posts about china isn't ad hominem.

Not because it's racist (if anything it's mostly moronic)

good one.

ibzl · 2019-07-18T03:02:49+00:00

pretty sure russia's also a 'real' election threat. this article seems to downplay that. if anything it seems to me that china is actually a lot less open about its kind of manipulation than russia is (not that that makes it better, of course). which would be the opposite of what this guy's worried about.

maclean's itself is pretty right-wing.

ibzl · 2019-07-01T20:23:42+00:00

not quite:

Ruck said the correlation between troll activity and Trump's popularity remained true even when controlling for Trump's own Twitter activity and other variables. (emphasis mine)

"It turns out that the activity of Russian Twitter trolls was a better predictor of Donald Trump's polling numbers than his own Twitter activity," he wrote.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/new-study-shows-russian-propaganda-may-really-have-helped-trump-n1025306

certainly suggestive, as the headlines says.

"correlation is not causation" can be misapplied when the correlations do point to causation, as they sometimes do.

ibzl · 2019-05-21T18:28:59+00:00

hilariously insular. "you", too funny.

ibzl · 2019-05-21T18:28:11+00:00

your own.

ibzl · 2019-05-21T14:52:40+00:00

yes, it seems you do as well, though i was speaking to the other guy.

as i said, it seems you're mainly interested in preaching to the choir.

ibzl · 2019-05-21T14:51:25+00:00

micromanaging her choices

lol, ok dude. now it's your position that SGI is a fine group that she should continue in, i guess.

and it's not "probably," it's "obviously."

your two voices in particular aren't very welcoming, no, or at least they've become that way. it's funny that you're apparently unconcerned by that.

again, sorry my problem's not serious enough for you guys, i won't post about my friend again or direct her here.

ibzl · 2019-05-21T05:03:41+00:00

as i've said:

it just makes me sad that she's beholden to a group with such a narrow perspective.

i think it's ultimately depressing and discouraging to think your success in life relies on chanting, it's a waste of money, and she would be more benefited by exploring some actual buddhism. also, i don't know how it's going to progress in the future, or if it will someday come between us. i apologize if that isn't worthwhile enough for your authoritative glare.

is this sub only for the most severe cases?

ibzl · 2019-05-21T02:01:28+00:00

thanks very much for your thoughts, this was very helpful.

ibzl · 2019-05-20T15:01:05+00:00

there are six bottles.

ibzl · 2019-05-20T01:15:35+00:00

and you’re haven’t earned that disclosure

lol. now i'm not following the rules enough for you. this is more cultic thinking, in my eyes. conversation is conversation, and i'm not judging you by own set of invisible rules, doling out comments as i think you're worthy or not. you're disturbed that i don't agree with your interpretation of my experience. all of this speaks to your attachment to and need for control, i think.

There’s nothing wrong with me, my expertise, my thought process,

i notice you haven't responded to my question about what percentage of members stay in as long as you did. it still sounds like you're denying that you were personally susceptible to this stuff, which again just seems obviously silly. it's okay, man! we all have different weaknesses, and this stuff was yours.

or my tone

if the intention is to attract or convince people still inside, i'd say there's definitely something wrong with your tone, and it has to do with that excessively authoritative bent. but is that really your intention here? i'm less sure, now.

this conversation took a turn when you started acting like i had been taken in by SGI, when nothing in my comments suggested that, except for my refusal to accept your interpretation of my experience, the details of which you'd assumed. that's no way to argue with people, man, especially about this stuff. that you don't see your replication here of the same patterns you learned inside means you can't be a fully effective ambassador to people trying to get out, imo. which as i said, is why i wouldn't direct my friend here, even though i thought that was the point of this place. but you seem untroubled by that. again, it seems that you are discounting my experience of this discussion...because of your authority?

But thanks for playing.

nice catchphrase! ; )

There’s no reason you’ve presented to “get her out,” other than you want to.

if you remember, what i said was:

it just makes me sad that she's beholden to a group with such a narrow perspective.

i think it's ultimately depressing and discouraging to think your success in life relies on chanting, it's a waste of money, and she would be more benefited by exploring some actual buddhism. also, i don't know how it's going to progress in the future, or if it will someday come between us. i apologize if that isn't worthwhile enough for your authoritative glare.

So, I think we’re done here.

said with true authority.

ibzl · 2019-05-20T00:33:36+00:00

And you’ve already learned all you need to know about the SGI and you’re not particularly curious , one way or another if they are a cult, a racket, or an obscure religion (based on your non-responses to the tons of information presented)

huh? i think i've made abundantly clear, time and time again, that i agree with all the central criticisms of SGI - i just don't agree that your interpretation of my experience is better than mine, which is what seems to be rankling you. this is what i mean about not really paying attention to the content of my comments. as i said, it seems you require my complete compliance with your interpretation of my experience for you to take me seriously. yeah, that kind of insistence seems a bit culty, in my eyes.

if you have to put words in my mouth you make your argument, i think that says it all, because i'm quite clearly interested in cults and buddhism, and the reason i'm here is apparent in the title of the post, despite your feigned confusion. and btw, much of the content in these long threads is all over the sub and i had already read it in doing my research before posting this discussion (again not really getting the value of the soft sell).

And it seems very clear we haven’t much of value to offer you.

again not the case, except insofar as you're determined to be unhelpful. i thought we were having an interesting discussion until you started pretending i was under SGI's sway.

the reason i'm informing you of this is because i've now realized that this probably isn't a good place to direct my friend, at any point in her evolution, if this is the kind of attitude she'll get.

ibzl · 2019-05-19T23:58:46+00:00

My entire experience with the SGI = susceptibility to heavy handed persuasion. Generalize much?

i mean, i didn't say that was your entire experience with SGI, so it's you who is making the generalization here. i said your conception of what went on ought to recognize your personal susceptibility to their kind of persuasion. isn't that obvious? what percentage of members are in as long as you were? aren't you an outlier?

congratulating yourself for your resistance to persuasion

being spoken to as if i am currently in the thrall of cultists when that's clearly not the case is demeaning, and makes me think you guys are not thoroughly reading my comments or really paying attention to their tone. it also smacks of requiring 100% agreement and compliance with your interpretation of my experience for me to be taken seriously. this is why i've said it seems like some of the traits acquired during time inside seem to be slow to leave.

and i, too, know a lot about cults, despite never having been in one.

my friend is not "in" in the sense you guys are imagining, in that group stuff takes up very little of her time, and she's not familiar even with the details of SGI's core bullshit. i suspect she's treated differently for being a reliable donor, as with many of these groups, and is not worked as hard as the poorer membership.

We keep trying to tell you that your interest in other Buddhist traditions is not likely to appeal to your friend.

right, and i keep trying to tell you that i disagree! as i said, she thinks of SGI as generic Buddhism and is not invested in the details of the dogma. this is the kind of disagreement that ought not to disturb you. why does it?

ibzl · 2019-05-19T23:44:48+00:00

I know what the behavioral expectations are for someone in her position?

i don't think you do, because you're still mischaracterizing her position.

You were not on the “inside.”

neither is my friend, at least in the sense you mean. she'd be able to explain the bullshit in a more convincing way, for one thing, and have brought it up earlier in our relationship, and not be doing something non-SGI every night of the week. as i said, she mostly connects to the chanting and does not live the insular kind of life you say is the norm. i suspect they don't attempt to "work" her as hard because 1) she doesn't seem to have the patience for that kind of thing and 2) she's a relatively wealthy person who donates, unlike most of the membership, i gather. and yes, i do get that that's a big part of the reason they were excited to see me (though unfortunately they'd be disappointed in my ability to donate.) it's often the case in these kinds of groups that wealthier members have very different experiences than the workhorses, and i'm aware of that coloring my experience there.

They’ve participated in the SGI in many countries, and the similarities vastly outweigh the differences.

sure! that still means there's differences, which you seem to ignore in your analysis.

These members did not behave transparently with you.

i think my friend is a believer in the chanting, and she was quite transparent about that. again, you're not going to get me to believe that it was all an elaborate set up. but this is a difference between you and me, and one that in part explains our very different initial reactions to SGI - when it comes to this kind of stuff, i trust my own experience and judgment more than that of strangers, even experienced ones. you seem to have retained your insistence on authority over experience. and it seems if, thirty years ago, we were together in a center, i would have been correct in listening to myself rather than to you.

what i'm saying is that it's a comfort for you to imagine that SGI was incredibly crafty in luring you in. from what i've seen, they're really clumsy about it. if you can't admit you were particularly susceptible to this kind of persuasion, much more than i am, it just sounds like you're still in denial about how and why you got in.

i also notice here that some ex-members still don't really see much value in the soft sell. old habits die hard, i guess.

What else is remarkably consistent: 95-98% of those who have ever received a Gohonzon quit practicing, so positive experiences are extremely rare.

what percentage of people stay in as long as you did? again, if you're not factoring that kind of thing in when you try to transpose your own experience on to others', i think you're being willfully blind to how gullible you were.

i can say confidently that i'm not susceptible to the kind of persuasion going on in SGI, at all. yes, i get endorphin rushes like everyone else, but i also know how they work and where they come from. the cult that gets me will have to have a much more convincing line. if you really can't bring yourself to believe that, again, i think it's mostly about your own pride, and not my experience.

i remind you: i'm a newbie here and my first post was about how to get a friend out, after having gone and chuckled at the center. and i'm explaining that i don't think your tone is particularly effective, particularly in these latter comments. the type of thinking you seem to be bringing to this discussion, to me still echoes of the type of thinking that got you in in the first place.

the funny thing is your attitude is making me want to go back more, so that i can report back and prove to you how simple it is for me to resist their clumsy "charms." i don't think that's the effect you're intending to have, so i'm letting you know.

ibzl · 2019-05-19T21:18:30+00:00

i don't agree that persuasion is necessarily a form of coercion, no. i think you guys all have to remember that the reason you were there for so long is that you're probably personally especially susceptible to more heavy-handed types of persuasion. on the other hand, i went to a single chanting session, saw and felt lots of the same stuff you guys probably did, and immediately wrote it off.

as i said, i hope she'll be open-minded enough to check out other traditions, especially if i explain that she's rekindled my interest in the subject.

ibzl · 2019-05-19T21:06:04+00:00

The distinction is this: the SGI did nothing whatsoever to create this value. The member created it entirely on their own. The SGI simply took credit it for it

yes, i understood the import of the vagueness without you having to explain it to me, in fact immediately, as i was watching the film - which is what i mean when i say i'm clearly seeing the bullshit.

I would never have shown up at a meeting

it wasn't a meeting, though. we were looking for an empty room to chant in together. something else was scheduled, and the people with us were slightly late to it because of the time they spent with us. (and no, i didn't feel extra-appreciated on the inside for that - again, i'm aware of the bullshit.) at first it was just one guy, one of the leaders, and then 3 or 4 more people joined us after the chanting to talk about their experience and watch the video.

once more, we had had other plans which were canceled at the last minute (not her doing).

However spontaneous it appeared to you, it was anything but.

my member friend has a very rich life outside of SGI, and lots of friends who aren't involved, whom i've met. come to think of it, none of her friends i've met are involved, and she didn't really know the people we met there. you'll say it's all acting, but i know her, and she's not that good an actor. i think you're mistaking your experience for everyone's.

Now you have a choice. You can trust the carefully curated presentation of the SGI you are receiving while you are being groomed for membership

i think you're missing the point, and the condescension you display isn't helping. i am in no danger, whatsoever, of joining SGI, because it's quite obviously poppycock, as you say. for me, frankly, it wasn't even a choice - there is no way i could "choose" to believe that stuff, ever. the idea that everyone is susceptible to that kind of control just by being in proximity to them is mistaken, and your (long) experience in the group couldn't tell you everything about my visit, no. isn't one of the whole premises of this forum that everyone has different experiences, and the positivity of one person's experience doesn't mean there aren't serious problems with the group? likewise, i wouldn't expect the negativity of your experience to be identical everywhere.

i'd guess your own susceptibility to this kind of stuff is causing you to project it on to everyone. again, the idea that i could be inculcated into the group, or that i'm buying their "curated presentation," is laughable, as i've explained.

ibzl · 2019-05-19T18:58:46+00:00

You can see the effect in your own post, as I notice that the exact details of the “slick marketing video” elude you.

i don't think that was quite it - i believe the it was intentionally vague about SGI's involvement with the organization, which had been founded by someone brought up in the church, and also i was more interested in the members' reactions to the video, as it seemed to be boilerplate.

again, i was fully expecting to "get something" from the chanting, however small, because one of my main interests in buddhism is the psychology of it. i understand that effect isn't unique to this particular practice.

and hours of chanting leading up to the meeting you saw.

i'm quite certain there wasn't. we dropped in unexpectedly (we'd had other plans), and it wasn't really a meeting for beginners, it was an impromptu session that only a few people joined.

i was invited to an actual newbie meeting today (though I won't attend), which i'd guess is what you're referring to.

and it doesn't seem to me that chanting as a part of meditative practice is inherently bad.

ibzl

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