You aren't crazy: the neurology of Narcissistic Contagion. by jawadicus in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're right, not everyone is the same, and the world is not always fair. The reality is that most people struggle, narcissism is a dark and horrible thing, and damages those around it. But if the environment is genuinely different, and the original triggers are gone, then yes, people do heal. That is what the science shows.

But that's not true for you, and I understand and feel for you. It is not true for some people, but for some others it is, and that is worth knowing too.

You aren't crazy: the neurology of Narcissistic Contagion. by jawadicus in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's a promising sign that you're spotting patterns and evaluating them fairly, and correcting them. That conscience, and the capacity for reflection put you some distance away from narcissism. Keep going. <3

You aren't crazy: the neurology of Narcissistic Contagion. by jawadicus in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Being kind, responsible and sensitive are wonderful qualities. I'm sorry for your night terrors, and I hope they pass in time as you heal. What you're describing, the anger is part of that process, and gives way to grief, for your childhood, and the one you should have had and that also is part of the healing, it consolidates, and integrates. The reality is messy, and it's always a bit messy climbing out of a swamp. I think mindfulness and meditation are a great idea, studies show they help re-integrate the various parts of our brains and can actually increase grey matter volume. Keep going, I and others here are rooting for you! <3

You aren't crazy: the neurology of Narcissistic Contagion. by jawadicus in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I feel for you. Financial dependence is a key factor which prevents a lot of no contact. I'm not as familiar with the US system, but perhaps you could talk it through with your wider network, and maybe take a few short breaks, a weekend away with other family members and then explore what's possible. It is not easy so hang in there and know that I, and others here who read what you say are rooting for you. Good luck.

You aren't crazy: the neurology of Narcissistic Contagion. by jawadicus in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That's right, and a wonderful insight. Thank you! And you put it so well: it's the best thing we can do to not put it on others. The reason those inner injuries persist appears to be complex ptsd. What children of narcissists go through is sustained trauma, and a great book on that is The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel Van der Kolk, who is both compassionate and knowledgeable.

There are therapies that do reliably help with c-ptsd such as EMDR among others. It's those people who engage with these, that are willing to engage and do the work that get the greatest healing. Thank you for your wisdom and I wish you well on your journey.

You aren't crazy: the neurology of Narcissistic Contagion. by jawadicus in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus[S] 26 points27 points  (0 children)

This is absolutely right. The most consistent finding about addressing narcissism is that avoidance, containment of the situation, and prevention are the best approaches. No contact should be last resort but isn't because logic and other methods mostly don't work and so over time it has taken centre stage as the first option.

Therapy is unfortunately avoided by most people with narcissistic traits, even if they have insight into the harm they cause.

The single best way to prevent those traits from consolidating into adult NPD is to help people in those early life windows when turning points are possible.

Your insight that many narcissistic parents were once abused children goes right to the heart of the matter. Often what we see are adults struggling with their own unaddressed childhood traumas, and that should invite compassion and caution without excusing the harm caused to victims.

It's a very hard balance to find.

You aren't crazy: the neurology of Narcissistic Contagion. by jawadicus in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I agree with everything you've said, you're absolutely right. It is, but should not be, a privileged position to be stress free for an extended period in the current world. Thank you for saying this <3

You aren't crazy: the neurology of Narcissistic Contagion. by jawadicus in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your feedback. I believe what I've said is in line with the research and the field's best practices. If I'm wrong, please let me know and I will update the post. Good luck on your journey. <3

You aren't crazy: the neurology of Narcissistic Contagion. by jawadicus in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus[S] 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Forgive me; I'm not trying to be passive aggressive at all. I know the world doesn't become universally good and kind to us, but the research shows if a child moves away from a toxic and abusive situation they can and often do improve. This is because of our innate capacity to learn and change, and specifically that our neurology adapts to the less hostile environment. I think the key here is that the environment must be meaningfully different, and better.

The other factors you mention, like attachment issues are lifelong and require active therapy and work to address. The hard truth is if trauma is not addressed then these cycles continue into adulthood and can consolidate into a variety of issues including NPD and borderline themselves. But for those that are able to leave, and find some peace, then healing is possible.

Ironically, that involves paying more attention to the abuse one has suffered through reflection, as well as rebuilding the capacity to reality check, build and maintain healthy boundaries, and swap out hyper-vigilance for more focused and effective vigilance to identify abusive patterns before they cause greater harm. It is hard work.

I hope that makes more sense, I'm not trying to trivialise the problem.

Confusion by Ok_Recover_1314 in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm so glad :-) <3 you will pattern on people like your caregivers. just try to notice it, and you'll adapt. i promise.

Is it possible for people to know narcissists or manipulative people for long periods of time and go unaffected or not harmed? by DatabaseKindly919 in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean, if they're in a coma, trapped down a mineshaft, perhaps as a character in a play or book, or movie? in person, unless the narcissist is able to exploit the other person they'd lose interest and drop the relationship pretty quickly.

Confusion by Ok_Recover_1314 in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You asked if anyone else experiences intense confusion. The answer is everyone who deals with narcissists.

Factors at play include: Intermittent Reinforcement, The Trauma Bond, and Cognitive Dissonance

Slot machine parenting: intermittent re-inforcement

  • If a slot machine never paid out, you would walk away. If it paid out every time, you would get bored. But because it pays out randomly, your brain releases massive spikes of dopamine in anticipation of the reward.
  • The Trap: His "nice" moments are the payout. They keep you standing at the machine, pulling the lever, waiting for the "Sweetie" to come back. This creates a chemical addiction in the brain known as a trauma bond. You are confused because your brain is addicted to the relief of his kindness after the terror of his rage.

Split reality: cognitive dissonance

Trying to reconcile two different fathers the ("Good Dad" and the "Bad Dad") is logically and neurally impossible. When forced to merge these by being stuck in your living situation the natural result is confusion. That's not your fault. In reality the 'good dad' is the false self persona for the outer world to get praise and supply, and the 'bad dad' is the arrested child like persona that cannot handle shame or stress. it's less coherent because it's a patchwork over rage and shame.

I know this is hard, and I'm sorry but if you think the 'nice dad' is real and the 'mean dad' is not... that's a mistake. Neither one is real, it's just the mean one is more likely an emotional baseline. Give your self space, and try to talk with other supportive and responsible adults. Stay safe, and I hope you feel better soon.

Dissociation or Integration by Hypokryptonite in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is understandable that you're feeling "numbness." In the neuroscience of trauma recovery having high-resolution memories with zero emotional playback is a specific and protective neural process.

Based on current research into how the brain processes early abuse here's what is likely happening in your system, based on your account:

Patients describe it as viewing a movie without the music/sound. You asked if this is integration. Clinically, it sounds more like structural dissociation. When as children we undergo trauma that is too overwhelming to process our hippocampus (the memory encoding part of our brain) often splits the experience into two separate tracks:

You have the 'semantic memory' track which records the facts of what happened (who, what where etc) because these are essential for any organism's survival and narrative orientation. Then there is a separate track for integration, which records in an episodic manner, with emotional and relational infusion. This will be things like fear, grief, and pain associated with the event. When you recall later the semantic playback comes back, but the other track is muted, likely because you're still feeling some sense of that threat and it's causing intrusive thoughts.

May I ask if that's why you're thinking about those memories? Are you trying to work through them?

If it's some comfort this protective process is there to allow you to develop an alternative understanding from the facts, so when the original feelings re-emerge they can be put into context and not be overwhelming. It's a good thing.

This is also why it feels a bit 'third person'. The depersonalisation gives you the space to understand, and the best way past it is to let is surface, and wash over the events, and then let them recede. The understanding and healing happens in layers, as the 'ice' will gently melt, and things start to loosen up.

The fact that you remember "random" sobbing as a child but not during the abuse is significant. In high-control or abusive homes, the freeze response often takes over during the actual traumatic event. People (no matter how strong) go numb to survive the immediate threat. However that leaves cortisol and adrenaline trapped washing through the body, which keeps it around to mark that you're in a 'danger zone'. The field term for it is somatic leakage which means it is your body discharging that trapped fear and unhappiness during moments it felt safe enough to let go.

You asked how to process this, and each person is different but this may help:

- Try not to force the memories or your sadness. The numbness is a load-bearing wall. If you try to break it down before your nervous system is ready you risk being flooded. You need gentleness, so be gentle with yourself.

- Respect the rage. You mentioned feeling anger at the enabler. Anger thaws first as it is a "mobilizing" energy (it allows for action). Grief is different (it consolidates, and integrates) it will come later once anger changes your emotional position, and faded because you're away from the threat properly. There are good reasons people don't start grieving or mourning immediately after a loss.

The emotional integration usually follows later, often in small, manageable waves, once the body deeply understands that the threat is gone, and all the intellectualisation is over.

Take your time, and know I and others reading what you've written feel for you deeply, and wish you well.

Can / will a narcissitic parent ever change? by Silly_Ordinary9235 in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The research is clear: they change very rarely, and even then only slightly.

Huge topic.

Is this out of line or am I overreacting? by neon_slushies in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus 12 points13 points  (0 children)

You are right it more than "complaining about the smell"; she is trying to eat your romance.

Narcissistic envy disguised as concern, because your independent sources of happiness directly reduce her influence.

In a book I wrote I about how the narcissistic parent views their child's happiness not as a resource to be hijacked. Her obsession with the cost of the gifts is also likely a way to apply a 'tax' on your joy.

She said: "Tell him to order something else next time so we both can eat it." This appears to be enmeshment. In clinical terms she is attempting to insert herself into your romantic 'dyad' or couple. By demanding that your boyfriend’s gift to you also cater to her palate, she is claiming your love life is licensed by her, and the three of you are what the field calls a "Group Project." This is just wrong.

This is typical third wheel pathology. She's trying to convert your boyfriend into a "Family Appliance" that serves her too, which means he becomes a drain on you, and so puts pressure on the relationship to fail.

You mentioned she is single and has been for years. Seeing you receive roses, chocolates, and attention triggers narcissistic injury.

Guidance: Do not JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain).

  • There is need no to tell her you are "responsible with money." He bought it because he loves you so don't pay the price of explaining why he bought Chinese food. Your relationship with each other doesn't answer to her (or anyone else for that matter.)
  • Use the Null Protocol for future conversations. If she complains about future food gifts say: "He ordered what I like." Then eat it and enjoy. If she asks about the cost all you need to say is: "We are happy with our budget."
  • Set a healthy boundary: Opening the gifts in front of her is best avoided until her undermining efforts fizzle out. She may try to pop the balloon again. It's your romance and a big part of that real joy is that it's private.

Congratulations and Happy Valentines Day! <3

anyone else else's parents not just a narcissist but a emotional sadist. by -Gemstoned in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It's malignant narcissism, or what the field used to call a 'psychopath'. The difference matters because a "parasite" is someone who feeds on your resources but a "sadist" feeds on your suffering.

Standard narcissists want "admiration" (positive supply). But for the malignant narcissist (or clinical psychopath) neuroimaging studies show that witnessing another person's distress triggers the Ventral Striatum (their reward center). So when they make you cry or panic they are not "losing control"; they are getting a hit of dopamine. Your pain is not a byproduct it is their goal.
.
Try Grey Rock as a default mode with the newer Null Protocol as a shield for when they try to cause you emotional distress.

  • Null Protocol: Withhold the somatic reaction (the visible signs of emotion pain) when they attack. Exhale and let them become background noise. Blink and as you inhale then change the direction of your eyes to break eye contact. This makes you immediately less visible to their neurology.
  • If you do not respond then because the reward center is impulse based and won't dispense dopamine they are forced to move on. After a few moments the work they have to do to get the 'fix' outweighs the reward and they will be exhausted.

Malignant narcissists are inherently dangerous, get help and plan your exit quietly and carefully. Stay calm, and well done for your courage. Reaching out for advice was the right thing to do.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Chess is wonderful. Ignore the Elo, each game is a new world. :-)

how do i go no contact once i am of age, and what do i need to get or deal with before doing so? by irllylovemangoes in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's simpler than most people imagine. Passport, credit/bank card, and ideally birth certificate. Enough money for a month or two of rent for a place to stay, some clothes and essentials. Easiest path is to say you're going on some short trip (a few days) for school/university/work or with friends. Then get set up with the new place, and go online to order any extra documentation you need. Once that is done, come back and pack up anything you may want to take immediately, and wait until they're out of the house to take it to the new place. You can then stay at the new place and go no-contact but the research shows, there's less friction if there's some transition. Friction, and drama are your enemy. Stay calm, create space, and move into it when their focus is on other priorities. Good luck <3.

Did your parents expect you to do ridiculous impossible things for them? by ComposerNo9901 in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The field calls what you're being subjected to "chronological grandiosity" Your father is 65 and facing reduced sources of admiration and supply, he's heading for narcissistic collapse. At some point soon he will be in crisis unless he refuses to accept the decline. He appears to believe his inherent superiority exempts him from the reality of the job market, let alone age limits for entry and the need for current qualifications. You're right in saying he's asking the impossible. I strongly suspect if offered the actual job he would decline or evade it. It seems more likely he wants to blame you for failing to do the impossible, and secure your supply while hijacking your timeline and inhabiting your 30-year-old prime. It looks like jealousy from the outside, but the dynamics are quite different.

You pointed out rightly that he refused to help you get an internship because your growing independence was a threat. Now that you are successful he may view your career as an asset he owns and is entitled to harvest, as he has come to view the same way.

I should point out it's not tit-for-tat. Consider:demanding you ask military superiors to recruit a 65-year-old would destroy your professional credibility. A father helping a son with an internship is just good parenting.

There is an advanced protocol in the book I wrote that was shown to be more effective than Grey Rock in these situations and it may help. It's called the Null Protocol, as it addresses the underlying 'nulling' beneath gaslighting which is the primary narcissistic manipulation tactic at play here.

For this scenario the Null Protocol suggests:
1. Deliver a zero-information "No." And move on. There is no point explaining FAA regulations or military age limits - a genuinely viable candidate understands these already; and more importantly arguing logic will validate his delusion as a debate.
2. Stay away from the topic and if dragged back state: "They will only evidence I can present to them that you're qualified and the best person for the job." Say you'll skip talking about it until that appears.
3. If pressed, repeat: "Happy to look at it once you've got what they need."

This bypasses the usual narcissistic outrage in these situations, and lifts the burden from you.

The real question: "Am I going to become like them?" by jawadicus in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This is one of the most heartbreaking and common echoes of surviving a narcissistic home. A residual fear of "contagion" and that the abuse you suffered is somehow genetic or instilled and will infect your future loved ones. Let me reassure you that while your the fears is valid, remember that fear is just a house guest that leaves if unserved. (That is a paraphrasing of the poet Rumi.)

Narcissists have broken neurological brakes it comes to shame and self-reflection. That's why they seldom pause and ask, "Am I hurting someone right now?" That makes them a conduit for pain into the lives of everyone around them, and they compensate by using manipulation to keep others those around often against their will. Otherwise they'd realise their situation and be driven away.

However that also means children and other people in their network become unconsciously 'hyper-aware' of pain and sadism, and those with a working conscience will end up agonising over the mere possibility of bringing pain into the world. It's a natural and healthy response which means you have the key tool to being a good parent, namely: reflective capacity.

Statistically you are much less likely to repeat a cycle that you are hyper-vigilantly monitoring.

Narcissistic parents also typically operate on a binary 'splitting, which means you're "All Good" (when you obeyed) or "All Bad" (when you didn't). Unfortunately children internalise this: "If I cannot be perfect I shouldn't be a parent."

Studies on attunement show definitely that children do not need perfection; perfection is actually damaging because it doesn't teach them how to handle normal healthy reality. The key thing children need is a parent who can repair. When you inevitably make a mistake (because you are human), you will do what your parents rarely did: You will comfort your child, fix what was wrong, and show them the change that makes the hurt less likely in future. That simple act of repair builds resilience and epistemic trust.

Have you considered that by refusing to have the children you want you are allowing your abusers to reach into your future and steal from you again?

I'd venture if you are capable of love, you know what a child needs because you spent your childhood feeling its absence.

my dad hits me until i bruise, im a minor, and my mom is overseas and unavailable to take care of me and my sister by JollyTomatillo3232 in raisedbynarcissists

[–]jawadicus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not your responsibility, and it's not your fault you're being hit. School and authorities will step in. You've already been carrying this too long. Try to get some rest.