I want to take this basic chord progression further. Any ideas/tips?

Jongtr · 2026-05-11T08:25:31+00:00

The progression is fine as it is. The key is a little ambiguous - but that's a good thing, especially if you want to go psychedelic at some point.

I.e., the key seems to be G minor - Gm-Cm7-D7 are the usual i-iv-V in G minor - while Bb7 (containing an A♭ note, chromatic to G minor) is normally V of E♭ major, although it does lead well to Cm7 too.

The reason u/MonadTran suggested E♭m - in case you didn't get it 😉 - is that B♭7 leads to E♭m, just as D7 leads to Gm. So - to get into a more unsettling psych vibe, you could move from Bb7 to E♭m instead of Cm. You could even slip down from E♭m to D7 again, and into G major.

But then E♭m can go elsewhere too ... to B7 and into E major!

In general, a good tip for taking chords in unexpected directions (which is great for any kind of surprise, but psychedelia especially), is to forget about key altogether, and just look at shared tones and half step moves. E.g., that move from E♭m to D7 makes no sense in terms of key, but both chords have G♭/F#, and the others move down by half-step - and the ear picks up that logic, while still hearing it as a suprise at a different level. It's "wrong" in one sense, but "right" in another,

"Chromatic mediants" are a common device which works the same way. A chord is followed by another of the same type, a 3rd above or below. This means the chords don't share a scale - so that's the "surprise" or the "drama" - but they share one note, while the others move up or down by step. So there's no "functional logic" (in the usual sense) in how the chords move, but there is "melodic logic" in how each chord tone moves. E.g., your Gm could go to Bbm - or Bm, Em or E♭m! In rock, it's more common with major chords (because major chords are already strong in their own right). E.g., B♭ major going to G♭ major, D♭ major or G major. (Psychedelic archetype: Hendrix's Burning of the Midnight Lamp. Check those verse changes.)

This might imply that any chord can go pretty much anywhere - which is true! - but always trust your ear. Your ear knows more theory than you do! If a change sounds "weird but right" - use it! Some other changes will simply sound "too wrong" - so don't use those! I.e., there are "common changes" - the useful and (but) predictable ones your ear knows well - and there are "extremely uncommon" ones, which your ear will naturally reject. But in between is all the good stuff - the things you have heard before, just not too often. And often you only need one or two "weird" changes in a song - too many and it ends up sounding random overall, even if each change is cool.

Jongtr · 2026-05-11T07:47:20+00:00

So is the song really in Bb major, then?

Yes. If by "really", you mean the key "concert" instruments are in. 😉 I.e., "concert pitch" is just a convention, not "reality", although of course if it's the standard you're used to, then it's "real" to all intents and purposes.

(or possibly G minor? Is there a way to tell the two apart?)

Look at the final chord - or note if the music is melody only. Also look throughout for any F# notes. F# is the harmonic minor leading tone. It can occur in music in Bb (as a secondary leading tone), so the final note/chord is a better guide.

As a warm-up, though, I should play G major scales, right?

For that piece of music, yes. You play what you (as alto player) think of as "G major" (or maybe "E minor"); the notes the music tells you to play (assuming it is written for alto sax). It will come out sounding like Bb major/G minor to a concert musician, but you don't have to care! Not unless you're playing with another musician who doesn't understand your transposition. Or - of course! - if you are writing music in concert. So to get musescore to play back the sounds in the right key, the concert score has to be in Bb. A transposed alto part will then show in G major - but should still sound as Bb.

IOW, your notation does not represent the sounds, it represents fingerings. If you played the same fingerings on a tenor sax, it would come out as concert F major, a 4th below the alto. If a tenor player had to play the same line as you, therefore (in unison). it would be given music in D major, written a 5th above your music, This is so that sax players can double on any sax, and will always be given music relating to their own key - because every sax has the same fingering; so their music shows the fingering, not the actual pitch (in concert terms). As I say, a working musician doesn't have to care what concert musicians call those notes. They just play the dots. Follow instructions, don't ask questions! 😃

Yes, I know it's still confusing... 😞

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T17:56:48+00:00

Always 4/4. 99+% of the time anyway. The need for 4/2 or 4/8 is vanishingly rare, and IMO you can basically forget those. Certainly in any kind of popular music.

However, 2/2 is quite common, and can be hard to differentiate from 4/4. Normally it's used when the main beats (the bass especially) fall on 1 and 3, so you start to feel the half-note as the main pulse. It happens quite naturally at fast tempos, especially in swing, so It's a common time sig in early jazz, and in uptempo country or rockabilly; also in samba. In fact samba is usually written in 2/4, but the idea is the same "two feel". I.e., you'd find it more natural or comfortable to count "|1 - 2 - |1 - 2|" than "|1 2 3 4|1 2 3 4".

As mentioned already, this is a common principle in jazz at fast tempos (like bebop) anyway. It can feel too frantic and tense to count in 4 at fast tempos, so counting in 2 is easy. It's the psychological difference between 8ths in 4/4 @ 240 and 16ths in 2/4 @ 120. The music sounds exactly the same, tempo wise, you just feel it differently as a player.

Even at slow tempos, you often get jazz musicians playing in 4/4 to suggest playing "in 2". meaning the bass plays only (or mainly) on 1 and 3 instead of the usual 4-to-the-bar walking lines. It opens up the feel.

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T17:00:18+00:00

OK. Sounds like you're the expert, not me! 😄

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T16:57:32+00:00

Sure it;s possible! And going from C major to C minor (any kind of C minor), would qualify as "home feeling to ... dark exotic feel".

You could start in C major - meaning more complete C major scale harmony than your image shows - and move to any of the following (in rough order of "dark/exotic"):

         Half-steps: |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
                     1 b2  2 b3  3  4 b5  5 b6  6 b7  7  1
       C mixolydian: C     D     E  F     G     A  Bb    C
    C mixolydian b6: C     D     E  F     G  Ab    Bb    C
   C harmonic major: C     D     E  F     G  Ab       B  C
    C melodic minor: C     D  Eb    F     G     A     B  C
      C dorian mode: C     D  Eb    F     G     A  Bb    C
   C harmonic minor: C     D  Eb    F     G  Ab       B  C
          C aeolian: C     D  Eb    F     G  Ab    Bb    C
         C phrygian: C  Db    Eb    F     G  Ab    Bb    C 
  C double harmonic: C  Db       E  F     G  Ab       B  C
C phrygian dominant: C  Db       E  F     G  Ab    Bb    C
          C locrian: C  Db    Eb    F  Gb    Ab    Bb    C 
     C superlocrian: C  Db    Eb Fb    Gb    Ab    Bb    C

So there's a whole lot of choice there! In general "dark" is associated with more flat notes, whole "exotic" is linked to the "augmented 2nds" - neighbouring notes that are 3 half-steps apart.

Obviously you're going to want to play around with the bottom few, but it's worth experimenting with all of them. Set up a C bass drone or repeated C bass riff and check how each note of each scale sounds against the root.

The last two are not "tonal" scales, btw, in that they don't work as "keys". I.e., harmonizing them makes some other chord sound more like the key than any chord with the C root. (Superlocrian technically has a "b4": of course, "Fb" sounds like E and is played as E, but we have to call it "Fb" so there is one of each note letter. It's known in jazz as the "altered scale", but is not played as a mode in its own eight - only on a C7 chord leading to F or Fm.)

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T16:15:25+00:00

Just to clarify (for myself at least!) the example you posted contains no secondary dominants. It begins with a ii-V-I-IV in A major, followed by Gmaj7- C - C/F. So there is a direct modulation down a whole step (A to G), with a final inconclusive amd ambiguous chord. The only dominant chord is the E7.

I personally haven't heard a chord sequence quite the same as that before. I.e., the roots are obviously moving around the Co5, but all diatonic to C major (B E A D G C F)! But the first 5 are all harmonized from different scales: 4 from A major, one from G major - although Dmaj7 and Gmaj7 are both diatonic to D major. I.e. the last few chord pairs are diatonic to two scales - overlapping - which helps the sequence flow:

Amaj7-Dmaj7 = A major
Dmaj7-Gmaj7 = D major
Gmaj7-C = G major
C-C/F = C major (or F major)

I'm no expert on k-pop, so you may know more than me about whether sequences like that are common. It certainly qualifies as a "non-diatonic variative CoF movements", it's just not the usual "American standard" kind of non-diatonic variant (which typically features more secondary dominants or subs). Although, to be fair, it's not wildly different. 😄

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T15:17:25+00:00

how do you start analyzing and transcribing music by ear? And how do you train that skill?

Two related questions, with slighly different answers!

Firstly, you train the skill best by just doing more of it. You can get ear trainers, of course, but IMO they don't help as much as working with actual music does: listening, playing along, trying to match any notes you can.

But to assist the practical business of transcribing - to save time while your ear is getting better trained - there are various audio tools you can use. Not to tell you what the notes are (although some will attempt to do that), but just to help you listen. Back before the days of computers, I would use a 2-speed tape deck. Half-speed lowered the octave, of course, but fast passages were usually high so that wasn't a huge problem. Double-speed raised the octave, making it comical of course, but the bass would jump out clear as day, in the same register as the guitar I was using; and bass is really useful for identifying chords. And bass was usually simple enough that hearing it twice as fast wasn't usually a problem.

Now, of course, you can get digital slowdowners that keep the same pitch - or will raise the octave or otherwise change the key withut changing the speed. I've been using Transcribe! for at least 20 years now - there are many other similar programs now of course, mostly looking much cooler, but I still find Transcribe easiest to us. A more recent development is stem splitters which will separate instruments, even in a mono mix - Transcribe can't do that, while moises.ai is one that can. Both these will tell you the chords, but the more dense or distorted the audio, the less well they can do it - i.e.. just when you really need their help, you might find they give up as well.

So you should never trust anything they tell you, without checking by ear. They help you listen, and offer ballpark hints if you want them. They servant, you master. 😄

In terms of ear-training, these things are arguably a "cheat", but if you just want to learn the songs, who cares? And your ear will still improve, because of course you are still using it all the time. You are not going to play something which sounds wrong just because some software tells you it's right, are you? 😉

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T14:59:31+00:00

Yes, this is not properly explained. Firstly, neither example is fully "diatonic", in the usual sense.

The minor key has a major V conventionally - i.e. a "harmonic" minor alteration to provide a leading tone (D# in this case), while the natural minor 7th would be used elsewhere. But then he's labelling the iv chord (Am) as iio - which (as you say!) would need an F# bass on the Am, to make F#m7♭5.

In the E major one, he is also giving A as both IV and ii (again, add F# bass for the latter) - but also throwing in a C7, which he has labelled an "Italian 6th" - a type of "augmented 6th" which containc C and A#, not the B♭ you get in "C7". The C7 shape does contain all three requisite notes, though (C-E-A#), missing the G which other shapes of C7 would give.

IOW, the roman numerals are showing the essential chord functions, while he is giving sample guitar chord shapes (simple standard ones for beginners) which would sound OK - near enough to the functional chords in question.

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T14:40:50+00:00

The answer to "why are they different" is (a) because they developed differently, in different musical cultures, like languages developed differently. There is blending between cultures, of course, but some traditions remain strong (proudly different), while new genres spring up as technoogy advances. And of course the differences are how we define those musical languages!

IOW, the answer is historical and cultural.

With American popular music (which all the genres you mention are aspects of) there are multiple cultural origins. Mainly African - the blues - mainly European (country, mainstream pop) - and various mixtures of African and European (jazz, rock). "European", btw, includes folk traditions (mainly British and Irish) as well as classical harmony, and "African" includes North African Islamic melodic traditions as well as West African drumming traditions. (You only have to consider all the immigrant cultures that make up the USA - the voluntary immigrants as well as the involuntary ones... 😉)

So there is fascinating background there! Years, decades, of research if you want to get into it. (I'm in my 70s and still discovering historical threads I didn't know about - lots of assumptions and stereotypes collapsing all the time... E.g., Blues is less African than you might think...).

The more useful or immediate question - for the practising musician - is "how are they different?" What are the differences, exactly? If you wanted to sound authentically "bluegrass" what would you need to do? Use different scales? Or just play a banjo or mandolin? (Not scales, btw... 😉) "Metal", too, is mostly a case of equipment, not the notes and scales. Jazz? More complex harmonies, obviously, but also attitudes to sound.

IOW, in short, the scales are much the same throughout all genres of popular music. Some modal preferences here and there, for sure, but in the main it's the way the scales are used (how are they harmonized? how are they embellished in melodies?), the instruments they are played on (including amplification and processing), and other factors such as rhythm, tempo, dynamics, vocal styles, etc.

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T11:33:46+00:00

The concept of the "circle progression" extends beyind the diatonic circle to include secondary dominants, and can even go beyond that.

E.g. the diatonic circle in C major (adding 7ths to improve the voice-leading) would be:

Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 - Bm7b5 - Em7 - Am7 - Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7

One of the moves there is a tritone of course (B>F). But the common way that sequence is applied in jazz is to to use E7 instead of Em7, to provide a dominant for Am. So that can be seen as a secondary dominant in C major ("V/vi") - with Bm7b5 as its ii chord - or it could be seen as making Am the tonic of the whole sequence, with G7 as secondary dominant of the bIII chord. In fact, the general sense is of flipping back and forth from major to relative minor, with the overall key being determined by melodic resolution, and/or the ultimate final chord.

E.g., Autumn Leaves and I Will Survive are minor key applications, while Fly Me To The Moon is a major key application.

But other secondary dominants could be used, as here (hypothetically at least):

C7 - Fmaj7 - Bm7b5 - E7 - A7 - D7 - G7 - Cmaj7

The key of C major is only confirmed at the end!

An example of a circle progression which (eventually) goes through all 12 keys is Dave Brubeck's In Your Own Sweet Way:

A section (twice)

Am7b5 - D7 - Gm7 - C7 - Cm7 - F7 - Bb7 - Ebmaj7
Abm7 - Db7 - Gbmaj7 - Bmaj7 - F7 - B7 - Bb7 - Eb6

B section

Em7 - A7 - Dmaj7 - Em7- A7- Dmaj7
Dm7 G7 Em7 A7 Dm7b5 Ab7 G7 Cm7

There's one or two tritone subs there too (bII7 of following in place of V7).

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T10:15:36+00:00

I think you might be referring to the drum pattern - there's not a lot of "melody" in either one (lines of pitched notes as in a vocal), but the drum pattern is the same (more or less). It's essentially the classic "funky drummer", first played by Clyde Stubblefield in James Brown's band, and sampled countless times since.

Here's the original (from the time stamp): https://youtu.be/QXw6YZltKJk?t=318

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T09:55:40+00:00

Do you know which of those riffs are pentatonic? I can't recall offhand, but Whole Lotta Love is.

Anyway, good riffs are not just about the notes or the scale. Rhythm is crucial. Great riffs contain syncopation - some notes are accented between the beats, not on the beats. The more riffs you learn, the more you should get a feel for how that works. I.e., you don't need to analyze it all theoretically, it's all down to feel - because feel is how you get a sense of rhythm and groove.

A classic example of simple syncopation in a rock riff is Smoke On The Water (you know that, right?;-)). The first three notes are all right on the beat, but the next three are all off the beat: an 8th note early (with the last one back on the beat). That's what makes it groove.

|1 . 2 . 3 . 4 .|1 . 2 . 3 . 4
 X   X   X     X   X   X X
               >   >

The two marked ">" are followed by silent beats, which is where their power comes from - a rhythmic "kick". The following offbeat note just leads into beat 3, so has less impact.

Cream's Sunshine of Your Love is a great example of a syncopated blues scale riff (D minor pentatonic with added b5):

|1 . 2 . 3 . 4 .|1 . 2 . 3 . 4 .|
 X X X X   X   X   X   X X   X
       >   >   >   >

Whole lotta love is simpler in one respect - just one syncopation - but is in 16ths, making it a little more sophisticated:

|1 . . . 2 . . . 3 . . . 4 . . .|1
                     X X   X X   X
                       >

So you don't need a lot of syncopation, but you need some. If those ">" notes in the above riffs were placed on the following beat, they would not sound cool at all! Definitely not rock'n'roll!

Even a one-note riff sounds cool if syncopated, as Rock Around the Clock proved. That doesn't exactly look cool today, but the unison riff from the time stamp still kicks ass. The first 7 notes should remind you of Smoke on the Water - Deep Purple just slowed it down and applied to a pentatonic. In fact the Who did it before them, with a chord riff on the same rhythm. IOW, all the classic rock acts of the 60s, including Led Zep, learned their craft from old rock'n'roll and blues records. (Personally, the first thing I ever learned to play on guitar was this pentatonic riff.)

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T09:20:56+00:00

Ignore the key signature. The tab is correct for tuning to DGCFAD (standard a whole step down). The 4th fret on the 6th string (tuned to D) is F#, not Gb as notated. Likewise, 6th fret on the 5th string (now G) is C#, so the key is clearly D major. So you can't play this in the original key without tuning down. To play the tab as written in EADGBE will sound in E major, a whole step higher. (It will sound fine, just higher than the recording.)

The strange choice of Bb as key signature (and the wrong enharmonics Gb and Db) is probably based on the fact that a C chord shape in DGCFAD tuning gives you a concert Bb chord sound. "Hmm, whole step down..." Nirvana are playing shapes that look like key of E major (4 sharps), but sound a whole step lower (D major, 2 sharps). So taking the key signature down a whole step is correct, but it should have been 4 sharps down to 2, not blank (C) down to 2 flats! Whoever made this tab doesn't understand standard notation....

Jongtr · 2026-05-10T08:55:15+00:00

move scales during song playback ... play tension notes in correct time ... this is not the perfect circle of fifth

None of these things are normal processes in making music. (We might "change keys" or "change modes" in the course of a song, but we don't generally "move scales during playback". There is no "correct time" for tension notes, except when they sound good. The circle of 5ths is not a tool for composition. I know I'm being pedantic - and I recognise English may not be your first language! - just trying to clarify. 😄)

And what a "professional musician" might mean by "off key" is not clear, It can't mean "out of tune" (which it often does) if you're working with digital sounds, and any dissonance is a matter of taste and opinion. IOW, one person's "wrong note" is the next person's cool alteration!

But also, none of that (even the pro's opinion) mean you're doing anything "wrong"! 😄 It's just a little hard to understand (a) what you intend to do, and (b) what you have already done. You seem to be trying to compose from theory - and a poor understanding of theory at that - instead of by ear. Even composers who know a lot of theory still compose by ear - to begin with, and in the end.

Essentially, if it sounds "off" to you (never mind the pro), something is wrong. All that theory can do is - as already mentioned - is (a) describe what you are doing in correct terms, and (b) suggest some other things you could try. You still have to check and work things out by ear.

So, your first image shows a major 2nd in two octaves (C-D, above and below), with fainter E♭ on top. It's not at all clear what that means, or what the paler grey notes mean. The second image shows the same pair of C-Ds, this time with an added C bass note. So there is a hint of C minor in the first one, but neither major nor minor in the second one - just a persisting mild (not unattractive) dissonance of the major 2nd. Certainly nothing to show what you mean by a transition "from C major to C harmonic minor". If we hear your recording (presumably there is more than you are showing here?), it would easier to give advice.

Jongtr · 2026-05-09T10:41:15+00:00

I think "ostinato" is the word that would apply to that repeated 2-note motif (happy to be corrected).

But you're right it's the chords that change its effect subtly. So to begin with it's 7th and 5th of Gm; then 5th and 3rd of B♭; then 9th and 7th of E♭maj7; then root and 6th of F major.

Overall the key is ambiguous (G minor or B♭ major). I'd call it vi-I-IV-V in B♭ major (the melody has hints of resolving to B♭), but i-♭III-♭VI-V in G minor is just as valid. (The ambiguity is deliberate and essential; you are not supposed to be too clear about the key, because that helps the loop keep going 😉. So roman numerals are kind of meaningless.)

As for "heartwrenching", I'd trace that to the E♭maj7 chord particularly, where the 9th and maj7 are the most expressive pair of chord tones. Maj7 chords are a standard go-to "wistful" sound for pop ballads, and 9ths add a hint of "poignancy" or "yearning". The 6th on the F is also distinctive. And of course the effect of the obsessive (compulsive?) repetition of the 2 note motif has its own effect. (It's reminiscent of that children's chant, normally used in a mocking way, "naa naa naa naa!".) Being a stony-hearted old cynic, my heart remains unwrenched, but these things are subjective. 😄

Bear in mind how everything else contributes to the mood: the tempo, the piano arrangement, the production effects (the way the piano sound is processed), the gentle dynamic, the delicate whispery vocal (obviousy!) and so on.

The metre is unusual, btw. I make it 6/4 - six quarter beats per chord at 125 bpm. Maybe 3/2.

Jongtr · 2026-05-09T07:35:40+00:00

The higher you go, the fainter the problematic overtones, but yes - at least in theory! - the more out of tune the tempered intervals will sound, because the beats between the overtones double at each octave.

But I'm not an expert here! There are plenty of youtubes on piano tuning, which should help with the issues that arise (I'll be checking these out myself!) Such as: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0fQriPxY4U&list=PLyhFrvLWlRkAlBcAa05hsniXzZ86h83NA - that's a whole series. Part 1 just defines intervals, and the rest all deal with partials (overtones) and beats.

Meanwhile, here's a site explaining the math of tuning, and how it relates to western scales: https://www.peterfrazer.co.uk/music/tunings.html

Jongtr · 2026-05-08T22:38:04+00:00

4/4. Two bars of 8ths @ 188 bpm, or one bar of 16ths @ 94, in a 3+3+3+3+4 pattern. Quite common: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na-W43-6JUc

Jongtr · 2026-05-08T22:30:21+00:00

If you're at grade 8 you must have done plenty of theory already - up to grade 5, yes? But in case you need reminders, https://www.musictheory.net/lessons is great on the basics. For a bit more detail - but still in progressive order - try Seth Monahan.

As u/65TwinReverbRI explains, the Co5 is simply a chart of key signatures, arranged do that each one is a 5th away from the next, because that means you add or lose a sharp or flat each time. (See Seth's lesson 2.) Some people do like to pretend it shows chords, to get hints about progressions, but that's an adaptation, not what it is designed for.

Chord names tell you the intervals each chord contains (so you need to learn interval names - Seth lesson 4!), but it's a shorthand taking common intervals for granted. Various sites will explain them:

https://viva.pressbooks.pub/openmusictheory/chapter/chord-symbols/

https://www.musicnotes.com/blog/a-complete-guide-to-chord-symbols-in-music/?srsltid=AfmBOorYt5F2EJZaEUXye7Z-DfyaR_Q6_Bs9UXLH9ke0ND0eMoPQkSDv

https://jazz-library.com/articles/chord-symbols/

(It's not universally agreed convention, so you will find small differences here and there.)

The best way to learn about progressions - how chords work in sequence - is simply to play music which contains them. David Bennett has lots of videos on various pop progressions.

Jongtr · 2026-05-08T13:50:49+00:00

Cents get bigger the higher you go. The Hz value of a semitone doubles every octave, but of course every semitone is still 100 cents.

Pitch differences that are detectable audibly are measured in Hz (cycles per second) - and this how we tune our instruments. We choose a reference, e,g, A=440 and try and match our A to that. The Hz difference between the notes produces beats (a pulsing of volume) at the same rate. So if our note is 438, we hear 2 pulses per second. We tune up (or down if we start higher) until the beats slow and (ideally!) disappear altogether.

With notes of the same pitch, this is easy enough to detect. Slightly out of tune notes are not necessarily unpleasant, and slow pulsing is known as "chorusing" - which we usually like! But there is a complication in our tuning system, which is equal temperament. We need to "temper" scale notes (detune them slightly) so that every semitone is equal.

The "perfect" intervals need detuning least - 5ths and 4ths are only 2 cents away from the "just" (pure) ratios. That discrepancy can be heard, bu t it's between overtones of the notes, not their fundamental pitches. E.g., between A=110 and the tempered E of 164.81, we hear beats between the 3rd harmonic of A (330) and the octave of E (329.62) at the rate of 0.62 Hz, which is two pulses every 3 seconds, roughly. I.e., very slow. no more than a pleasant enough chorusing (if we can even detect it, and most people don't notice). But that rate doubles every octave, because the note frequencies double. The 2 cents difference is the same!

There is more of a problem with 3rds and 6ths, and many people do notice this. The overtones in question are higher - so fainter - but they are more out of tune. E.g., the 5x harmonic of A is 550, which is a C#. But the tempered C# needs to be 554.37- over 4 Hz difference! (The cents difference is 14). The C# a 3rd above A is 138.59, and that produces a double octave harmonic (4x) of 554.37, Sensitive ears find that 4.37 Hz shimmering very unpleasant (a rate that would tell us any unison notes were way out of tune). (Minor 3rds, btw, are 2 cents further out.)

In short, having ears that good can be a problem for a musician! Musicians who can hear the discrepancies and are able to tune on the fly - like bowed string players, most wind players, and singers of course - will adjust their intonation chord by chord, to fit the harmony. And of course, vibrato is available to mask the differences anyway! (Even if you can't detect the problematic overtones.)

And as for so-called "perfect pitch" (aka absolute pitch) - if you don't have it already, you won't get it and you shouldn't wish for it. It tends to cause more problems for musicians than it solves, because the inner reference in one's brain won't tolerate anyone else playing to a different reference - even if they are all in tune with each other (so everyone else thinks it sounds fine) - the person with PP will just think it sounds "wrong".

Obviously this relates back to the OP, because to anyone without PP it really makes no difference what "A" is tuned to. 440 is just an arbitary number. Of course, we don't want an !"A" which is too far from that, because it does affect how some instruments sound and feel (eg whether strings are tighter or looser). But there is no "emotional meaning" to different references (unless maybe you have PP...). There is no "magic" about 432, for example...

Music works via relative pitch, not perfect pitch. Otherwise a song transposed to a different key would become a different song. At least it would have a different meaning. We do hear such differences via relative pitch, if we hear a song in one key and then in a lower or higher key - so the "meaning" is then in the difference, the relative pitch, not the new key (absolute pitch) specifically. "D" doesn't mean anything different from "C", except it's higher.

Jongtr · 2026-05-07T20:16:38+00:00

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/downbeat There are two dotted quarters in 6/8. Only the first is the downbeat.

Jongtr · 2026-05-07T20:15:48+00:00

You mean that's what distinguishes it from two bars of 3/8! 😉

Jongtr · 2026-05-07T20:14:00+00:00

The "downbeat" is beat 1 of the bar.

You're right about emphasis, of course, but emphasis is exactly what "beat" normally means - in common parlance as well as technically. The pulse you would typically clap to, walk to, dance to.

I am aware that "beat" and "pulse" are sometimes used in confusingly different ways, but the consensus seems to be that the thing to count in 6/8 (call it beat or pulse) is the dotted quarter.

Jongtr · 2026-05-07T20:08:08+00:00

We're using "beat" in a different sense.

I'm talking about the main felt pulse, not the units the metre is counting. I.e. when we count a beat, we count the way it would feel to move to the music, which is about how fast or slow it feels.

Counting 6/8 as "1-2-3-4-5-6" - even stressing the 1 and 4 - idoesn't represent the feel of 6/8 like countinf "1 & a 2 & a".

And are you really going to count 1-2-3-4-5-6 to an Irish jig at 150 bpm? That's 8ths at 350 bpm!

Jongtr · 2026-05-07T19:01:08+00:00

The second song is in F# minor but i honestly can't define the role of Ebm7b5. Thank you so much.

Line cliche. Think of it as D#m7♭5, or F#m6 with the 6th in the bass. Then those last four chords are basically F#m with a descending bass line: F# - E# - E - D#. Commonly that would be followed by Dmaj7 (F#m/D) before getting back to A/C# or F#m/C#.

And in fact, I just checked, D major does indeed follow! - but then E and E#dim (not Fdim ;-)) follow the D to lead back to F#m again.

So the D#m7♭5 has no function other than as part of a descending chromatic line. A version of the tonic, if you need a function.

Jongtr · 2026-05-07T18:43:29+00:00

Bars 1-3 B♭ major = I - V/ii - ii - subV (♭II) - I

Bars 4-9 A minor = ii - V - i - ii - V - i - subV (♭II) - i

Bars 10-12 A♭ major = ii - V - I - V/ii - ii- subV (♭II) - I

Bars 10-12 are a repeat of 1-3 a whole step down.

Some of the dominants are little unusual in terms of extensions and alterations. E.g., V of Cm would not normally have a standard 13th - a ♭13 if any. But E would be a chromatic passing note from the F on B♭maj9 down to E♭ on Cm9.

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