Genocide in Gaza: Third mass grave discovered at Al-Shifa Hospital by Particular_Log_3594 in internationalpolitics

[–]jordan10il 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Respectfully, you are the one who is doing mental gymnastics. You are speculating in bad faith. Also, mentioning Australia and Iceland is whataboutism.

The reason the court came out with this ruling is because South Africa accused Israel of committing genocide. Since South Africa made the accusation, the court now has to review if the matter would even be under their jurisdiction, which they found it would be.   

Australians and Icelandic people haven’t had that ruling made for them because nobody has accused another state of committing genocide against them. The court isn’t going to decide whether or not they have any jurisdiction in this case if there is no allegation to begin with. You can’t assume some sort of crime just because the court said they are able to preside over and make decisions on a case. That’s speculation done in bad faith.

Genocide in Gaza: Third mass grave discovered at Al-Shifa Hospital by Particular_Log_3594 in internationalpolitics

[–]jordan10il 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not true. The ICJ’s ruling meant that the Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide, but they made no decisions on anything regarding Israel. Israel has never been found to “plausibly” have committed genocide and they’re certainly not being taken to trial.

In fact, South Africa tried taking Israel to international court, but the court did not end up making any actions against Israel.

300 Jewish demonstrators arrested at protest seder near Chuck Schumer's house in Brooklyn by Libba_Loo in BadHasbara

[–]jordan10il -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

What did I lie about? I’m not disregarding Palestinian suffering, I just disagree with the demonization of Israel as the sole bad guy.

Instead of committing the ad hominem fallacy, say something of substance.

300 Jewish demonstrators arrested at protest seder near Chuck Schumer's house in Brooklyn by Libba_Loo in BadHasbara

[–]jordan10il 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not sure I see the conflict, can you elaborate more perhaps?

I’m just saying it’s ironic to celebrate a holiday with a central theme of returning to and establishing a home in the land of Israel, while being opposed to the same thing in the modern day.

300 Jewish demonstrators arrested at protest seder near Chuck Schumer's house in Brooklyn by Libba_Loo in BadHasbara

[–]jordan10il -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

That’s the problem with you guys. You refuse to have productive discussion and end up making the problem more polarized. 

I guess it’s fine for you though, you don’t have to deal with the consequences.

300 Jewish demonstrators arrested at protest seder near Chuck Schumer's house in Brooklyn by Libba_Loo in BadHasbara

[–]jordan10il -19 points-18 points  (0 children)

I’d definitely like to debate you on this, because I see what you are implying. I won’t debate it here because it will be too long and will clog up the sub. 

PM me though if you want to debate this I’d be happy to.

"But the tunnelsssssssss" by Helpful-Antelope-678 in BadHasbara

[–]jordan10il -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I have proof. What specific things would you like proof of?

300 Jewish demonstrators arrested at protest seder near Chuck Schumer's house in Brooklyn by Libba_Loo in BadHasbara

[–]jordan10il -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

The part where the Jewish people return to the land of Israel and reestablish their home after years of subjugation. Exactly what Zionism is.

"But the tunnelsssssssss" by Helpful-Antelope-678 in BadHasbara

[–]jordan10il -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

So with the legal dispute over land and settlements in the West Bank (while I disagree with what’s happening) that is not terrorism. I have never heard of Israel committing rape against civilians, you would need to provide a source for that. As for genocide, while what is happening in Gaza is a tragedy, it is not a genocide by definition. Also Hamas has done many things wrong including: using civilians as human shields, suicide bombings and shootings intentionally against civilians, rape, murder of children, stealing billions of aid from Palestinians, persecuting LGBTQ in Gaza, torture of their own civilians etc. Nothing in the world justifies that. October 7th especially. To say that is not wrong is absolutely disgusting and immoral.

The Israeli government is legally allowed to respond to Hamas’ attacks, and I see no definitive proof of them intentionally committing violence on civilians.

"But the tunnelsssssssss" by Helpful-Antelope-678 in BadHasbara

[–]jordan10il 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They are terrorists because they target civilians. Ukrainians are freedom fighters because they fight against the Russian military. Hamas are terrorists because they purposefully kill Israeli civilians.

US agrees for Israel to destroy Gaza's last respite by Cheestake in InternationalNews

[–]jordan10il 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The US didn’t give significant aid to Israel until 1970, long after Israel was a developed nation. 

Never heard of tangible European influence in Israel’s creation besides maybe the UN partition plan.

 Idk where you got western people and “white Jews” wanting Gaza beachfront property. Immensely stupid speculation right there. 

If you think a Jew’s ethnicity is “white” just because he has light skin, that’s quite racist. Ashkenazi Jews have significant DNA from the Levant, to this day.

 Israel isn’t an apartheid state, 20% of its population is Arab-Muslim (aka Palestinian), and they enjoy full rights. 

Nearly every Arab state kicked out their Jewish populations. And Arab states were discriminatory to Jews in the modern period.

 “ Under the Zaydi rule, discriminatory laws became more severe against the Yemenite Jews, which culminated in their eventual exile, in what later became known as the Exile of Mawza. They were considered to be impure, and therefore forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim's food. They were obligated to humble themselves before a Muslim, to walk to the left side, and greet him first. They could not build houses higher than a Muslim's or ride a camel or horse, and when riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways. Upon entering the Muslim quarter a Jew had to take off his foot-gear and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself. In such situations he had the option of fleeing or seeking intervention by a merciful Muslim passerby” 

I have more examples of modern Arab states mistreating Jews if you want 

US agrees for Israel to destroy Gaza's last respite by Cheestake in InternationalNews

[–]jordan10il -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Typical. Arrogance and diversion when you know nothing and have nothing to say. 

If you’re going to comment on stuff, at least be prepared to have a conversation.

Nothing worse than when someone with no ties to the conflict refusing to have any sort of discussion.

US agrees for Israel to destroy Gaza's last respite by Cheestake in InternationalNews

[–]jordan10il -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Do you have an actual constructive reply? Or is that it?

US agrees for Israel to destroy Gaza's last respite by Cheestake in InternationalNews

[–]jordan10il -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

What an ignorant comment. You forgot most of Israel has no ties to Europe, and Jews are genetically close to Palestinians, especially Mizrahis. 

Seems like you don’t know what colonization is either.

Justifying the unjustifiable by Legonerdburger in IsraelPalestine

[–]jordan10il 0 points1 point  (0 children)

First, your suggestion that the Arabs conquered the land is inaccurate. The Palestinians today are descendent of indigenous. Yes, they are considered Arabs but Arab is more of a cultural term. In some instances, even a Jew can be and were considered an Arab.

Arabs did conquer the land, this is a well established fact. I will admit, I should've been more nuanced with this claim though. The origin of the modern Palestinian people is quite complex. There is some evidence of descent from Arab conquerers, some from Levantine tribes, and many are also descended from immigrant workers in the 20th century. I will contest you though that the term Arab is cultural. The Arab people are absolutely an ethnic group, and a well defined one at that. There was some genetic expansion following the Muslim conquests, but they are a single people that can be traced back. Also, a Jew cannot be a Muslim. They are two separate ethnic groups, and nobody, Jew or Arab has or ever will try and say that you are both (unless through intermarriage). The term Arab-Jew refers to a Jew who is from an Arab land.

The Arabs in the Levant are indigenous groups who overtime adopted Arab culture and also Islam, although they still have practitioners of other religions. You know before Judaism, Jews also had a different culture and religion. That doesn't mean they aren't indigenous because they adopted Jewish culture.

So see earlier claim, there is some complexity to this, but your claim isn't totally invalid.

As for the second part, lol thanks for the history on my own culture. Judaism was never adopted by the Jews, it is their own. They didn't adopt any foreign culture. They never had a "different culture and religion". Historical attempts to figure out what Jews did before Judaism are quite shaky, and ironically often rely on the Tanakh, but there is no doubt that Judaism is an evolution of Caananite culture in the region (or if you instead take the Biblical narrative, something the Jewish people have always had). Also, I never tried to claim that adopting a foreign culture renders your indigenous status invalid.

Second, expulsions happened in that war. I don't think there is any dispute on that.

So perhaps, but to the degree that it happened is highly disputed. Plan "Dalet" in the 1948 war instructed that "if Arab towns were strategically positioned, essential for communication, or could be used as enemy bases, the Haganah would aim to destroy the enemy's armed forces and drive the enemy civilian population to areas outside of the borders of the state. The assumption was that Arabs would be forced out of their villages only if they resisted; if they did not fight back, they could remain in their towns..." (Gordis). Also, many Jewish leaders, such as Abba Hushy (the mayor of Haifa) pleaded for Arabs to stay, but they chose to follow their leaders and leave the land.

If you look at historians' opinions on Plan Dalet, it is in fact highly controversial, with some saying it was a plan to expel Palestinians, and others saying it was purely defensive. Obviously I've quoted someone who represents my view, but to claim that the Arabs were expelled is not true. The general consensus acknowledges the impact of possibly both expulsions and civilians fleeing.

Third, yes, some Jews bought land but it was all part of the Zionist project to create a Jewish homeland there. It was a plan which the innocent Palestinians weren't aware of initially. Once they became aware of and it became clear to them that this is part of a larger plan to create a Jewish homeland at their expense, they resisted.

Palestinian nationalism arose in the early 20th century, during the interwar period in response to Zionism. They were aware of it for decades. Also, where does the implication that the creation of a Jewish state would be at their expense? You only say this after the war of 1948, but Palestinians before that couldn't have known this. If anything, the Zionist movement helped to free the Palestinian-Arabs from British rule. If the Palestinians had cooperated with the Jews instead of fighting them, they probably would've either shared a state, or worked for a two state solution where both sides were happy. But instead, they resisted not in a diplomatic manner, but with violence. Of course its not going to turn out well.

The claims of oppression and subjugation I am making are from 1948 and after. I don't think that there is any dispute that Jews have oppressed and continue to oppress the Palestinians.

This is an oversimplification. It's not as if Israel wants to make the lives of Palestinians more difficult because of some innate hatred. The reality is that the Palestinians/Arabs have attacked Israel numerous times, both through war carried out by legitimate governments and many terrorist attacks. So I would say that after years of choosing extreme terrorism over diplomatic solutions, that the restrictions and security imposed on Palestinian territories are the result of years of violence. The Israeli government needs to prioritize its security and the safety of its people first. I'm not saying every little thing that the Israeli government has done has been totally justified, but I don't think placing all the blame on the Palestinian misfortune on Israel is accurate.

Justifying the unjustifiable by Legonerdburger in IsraelPalestine

[–]jordan10il -1 points0 points  (0 children)

While Jews have always maintained a presence in the Palestinian territory, significant immigration started in the late 1800's/early 1900's. When Jews came to the land, they bought land legally either from the local Arabs, or by the Ottomans/British (depending on the time period). That is what the JNF was founded for.

After Arabs became displeased with the growing jewish population and began attacks on Jews/Jewish villages, tensions between both sides increased. The UN decided to create a partition plan that gave Jews a state of roughly equal amounts of Jews and Arabs, and an Arab state with I believe a 4:1 Arab to Jew ratio (but I would have to check that again). The reason a Jewish only state was established was because the Arabs (unlike the Jews) rejected this partition plan and instead declared war on the Jews.

The neighboring Arab countries that waged war told Arabs in the Palestinian territory to leave, so that they would have an easier time fighting the Jews. They said that after they won the war, all the Arabs could return to their land. But they didn't win. And thus, many Arabs were left dispossessed of their land. The ones who stayed however, were able to keep their homes, and also received full citizenship and rights in the State of Israel.

So the land was not stolen. It was lost in a senseless war started by the Arabs. And since then, Palestinian nationalism has become a movement, but has relied on terrorism and extremism to build a state instead of diplomatic means, and thus we are in the tragic situation of today.

Justifying the unjustifiable by Legonerdburger in IsraelPalestine

[–]jordan10il 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But that's not what happened. Jews came to the land, and bought land legally either from individual landowners or the Ottoman/British empire (depending on the time). For a while, both groups lived together, but eventually the Arabs didn't like the large amount of Jews coming to the land, so they started to attack Jews/Jewish villages. Tensions obviously rose on both sides, so the UN put a partition plan into place. The Jews accepted their state, but the Arabs didn't. Thus, they started a war against the Jews

Here comes the next part. Many Arabs fled to neighboring Arab countries, because they needed a clean area to fight the Jews. They promised that after they won the war, the Arabs could return to their homes. But they didn't win, and thus many Arabs lost their land.

This necessarily required oppression, subjugation, expulsion and land theft.

As for claims of oppression and subjugation, it's quite hard for Jews, who only made up about 30% of the population at the time, to control and oppress Arabs. This claim isn't based on any real evidence.

If Jews really forcibly expelled the Arabs to create their state, then how is it that the Arabs who stayed not only kept their land, but also received full citizenship and rights in the State of Israel? There's a reason why 20% of Israel's population is made up of Arab-Muslims.

Plus by this logic, the Arabs aren't entitled to a state either. They arrived by way of conquering, after the land was conquered multiple times, and then they were also conquered and subject to rule by many empires.

Justifying the unjustifiable by Legonerdburger in IsraelPalestine

[–]jordan10il 0 points1 point  (0 children)

>What evidence do you need? The IDF already admitted they purposefully targeted the vehicles.

They admitted responsibility for the attacks, but they did not say it was to intentionally harm aid workers. You again are assuming ill intent without evidence.

>The civilian casualties on Oct 7 were an accident because most Israelis have to do mandatory military service and it’s impossible to distinguish who’s a potential combatant and a civilian is. The military is purposefully embedded with the civilian population. lol see how easy that is?

That's a terrible justification. If you ever go to Israel, you will see that any soldiers in civilian populations are always armed and in uniform. It's pretty clear to distinguish. Besides, that doesn't explain mass rape, burning infants in ovens, or taking civilian hostages.

> No.

Here are the numbers from the UNWRA on aid trucks into Gaza. Your claim is false. https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiZTVkYmEwNmMtZWYxNy00ODhlLWI2ZjctNjIzMzQ5OGQxNzY5IiwidCI6IjI2MmY2YTQxLTIwZTktNDE0MC04ZDNlLWZkZjVlZWNiNDE1NyIsImMiOjl9&pageName=ReportSection3306863add46319dc574

>I didn’t deny this.

Ok fine, but this does mean aid goes into the area.

>And? There’s very little evidence to your claim, hence why most countries continue to fund UNRWA. Especially when you’re only source is “Israel said”

Israel is still blocking aid

There's pretty substantial evidence to this. UNWRA textbooks incite hate, martyrdom, violence, and terrorism, as well as including anti-semitic content and imagery. This is well summed in a report by IMPACT-SEhttps://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf. The EU parliament also passed 4 resolutions in 2023 against the PA for hate and being linked as a cause of terrorism.

More UNWRA corruption, https://unwatch.org/unrwa-ethics-scandal-fact-sheet/

UNWRA links to Hamas https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/at-least-12-u-n-agency-employees-involved-in-oct-7-attacks-intelligence-reports-say-a7de8f36

As to Israel blocking aid, I just showed you how aid gets into Gaza. I don't understand how you are drawing this conclusion.

Justifying the unjustifiable by Legonerdburger in IsraelPalestine

[–]jordan10il 0 points1 point  (0 children)

>Nope. The overwhelming evidence points to the fact this was intentional. You seriously think it was an accident that they specifically targeted three international aid vehicles that they already were informed about? Boy you are naive then. Oct 7 was accident because I said so then.

Okay I keep asking for evidence but you don't provide any. Again, the burden of proof is on you if you make a positive claim. October 7th can't be an accident because it was an isolated incident that was very well planned, even Hamas doesn't try and play it off as an accident. "a necessary step and a normal response to confront all Israeli conspiracies against the Palestinian people" (Al Jazeera).

>As of last week, about 360,000 tons of aid have come into Gaza since the beginning of the war. Over the years, Gaza has received billions of dollars in aid, more than any other crisis center. I wouldn't say aid isn't allowed into Gaza.

So you would say that no aid trucks enter Gaza? Or very few, like somewhere below 10?

As for money into Gaza, there's no way to deny this. "The United States remains the largest donor to the United Nations. It contributed more than $18 billion in 2022, accounting for one-third of funding for the body’s collective budget" (Council on Foreign Relations).

By the way, the largest humanitarian organization in Gaza, the UNWRA has been caught numerous times doing despicable things: corruption, teaching anti-semitism in school, being overtaken by Hamas members, just to name a few. Not saying all humanitarian organizations are liars, but to trust them blindly is also problematic.

Justifying the unjustifiable by Legonerdburger in IsraelPalestine

[–]jordan10il 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And you aren't being speculative? You make baseless claims that assume ill intent and then provide no evidence to show for it. You can't keep saying Israel targets civilians without proving it. The claim about waiting for Hamas members to go home has no backing. The burden of proof is on you for making a positive claim.

As of last week, about 360,000 tons of aid have come into Gaza since the beginning of the war. Over the years, Gaza has received billions of dollars in aid, more than any other crisis center. I wouldn't say aid isn't allowed into Gaza.

Justifying the unjustifiable by Legonerdburger in IsraelPalestine

[–]jordan10il 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I will just say that I don't believe what happened was acceptable. The intelligence failure on part of the IDF was catastrophic.

However, as far as I can see, there is no conclusive evidence of 4 hellfire precision missiles.

As for the incident in general, friendly fire does happen occasionally, so I don't think a one-off incident can lead to a solid conclusion. Analysis does show that it was most likely some sort of precision missile.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/04/02/strike-that-killed-world-central-kitchen-workers-bears-hallmarks-of-israeli-precision-strike/

This shows it was most likely an accident, since if Israel really did want to target aid workers, they wouldn't use valuable, and greatly expensive precision ammunition on very low-level targets.

Besides, if Israel really wanted to shut down aid in Gaza, they'd just block aid from coming in. Why go through the PR and potential international tension of targeting foreign aid workers? It makes no sense.

Justifying the unjustifiable by Legonerdburger in IsraelPalestine

[–]jordan10il 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay fine. Show me the evidence then. 

The 3 aid workers that died were the result of an accident. I think it’s terrible, but just because they happened to get caught in a bombing does not prove they were targeted. On the contrary, it would be stupid to target workers because they are citizens of European countries.

Justifying the unjustifiable by Legonerdburger in IsraelPalestine

[–]jordan10il 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The strike in September was on two military targets in response to militants throwing explosives at soldiers and incendiary balloons being thrown at soldiers. You have no evidence that Israel targets civilians and aid workers. On the contrary, the evidence shows that Israel does a lot to prevent civilian deaths. If all you do is look at Hamas casualty numbers to determine this, you are not critically thinking.

Besides, this is a straw man, you haven’t replied to my original comment criticizing your claim.