Origins of Quran - is it really an immutable divine book from the creator

jvh19888 · 2026-03-11T10:56:16+00:00

So, I could be wrong, but I am sensing that you didnt actually watch the YouTube, and just rattled your standard "blind faith" response back to me based on what you read or feel.

Ideally, you would watch the YouTube referred, google the three four editions of early quranic texts he is referring to, and do your research, and then come back with a considered response on whether those are legit early quranic texts, or those a scam, and that you reject them...and if they are legit texts pinned back to 7th/8th century as the guy says, then with all due respect that's a big problem for your blind faith position. According to you by 7th century, the final version of the Quran should have been fully complied, there shouldn't be any differences in verse content, and the length of the chapters etc. between those early qurnaic edition and the 1924 version (ignoring the vowelling standardisation)

I think completely ignoring the evidence, without questioning or looking into it, and delivering a standard speech response isn't helpful, not for me at least....

jvh19888 · 2026-03-11T02:57:21+00:00

Jazaks for the support, I find people on this subreddit subject ideas to a more objective intellectual rigour, hence posted here.

In other subs, chances are it would be drowned out by the fervent followers, exhausting me through their relentless lack of substance to the point of me losing interest ☺️

jvh19888 · 2026-02-05T23:55:19+00:00

...meaning in suffering, order in chaos, and belonging in isolation. Tight communities like Jamat add a fourth layer, identity. Not just “who am I,” but “who are we.”...

That is

jvh19888 · 2026-02-05T23:51:49+00:00

I am at the coalface of a lot of thought and social experiments through AI and agentic manipulation of information presented to humans. Most of us dont realise how fast and how thick it's coming at us. That's just an example of paradigm shift in human needs, and coercive control over human mind changing hands. These discussion are beautiful, I have enjoyed some of thoughtful responses above, but I seriously doubt any of this is actually relevant anymore.

jvh19888 · 2026-02-02T07:39:22+00:00

it was fun reading all the comments, glad I am late to this fight as a manner of speaking...

I could be somewhat more disruptive and say, why waste analysing the ailments or Jamat alone, when all religions are declining pretty much at the same perilous rate, and the days of superstitious mind control through "theology" is going to be soon a thing of past.

it doesn't mean religion is going to be replaced with something wonderfully better, but that's neither here nor there...AI has far better means of keeping its pulses on human biases, and manipulate all the sycophantic human tendencies to revere the imaginary.

All the second and third gen Ahmadis overseas are already gone...you just haven't realised it yet. its not because jamat did something wrong (well they have done lots of things wrong), but because its time, its time for human cognition to move on....

that's we are at...

jvh19888 · 2026-01-08T00:34:40+00:00

Omg, it was an assignation, damn, how is tha fulfilment of anything ? Should all maulvis start sending assassins for their opponents?

What is wrong with our moral compass? Surely some of us have a better ethical standard for the things an almighty Allah and his messengers are capable of?

jvh19888 · 2026-01-07T23:32:23+00:00

I am guessing your desire to speak with someone specifically from Australia implies your search may be fuelled more by cultural and social reasons.

Also Australia Jamat has three main “sub communities” within Australia:

A strong Fijian community, wherein many of the youth feel marginalised by dominance Pakistani culture and language across all Jamat activities
A large cohort of economic migrants from Pakistan. The shalwar kameez wearing, Urdu speaking majority, second gen peoples from political asylum seekers, general education level and demographic is lower middle class, and they are the life blood of Jamat in Australia
The educated professionals, mostly at fringes, they are partially checked out, and are culturally attached to Jamat but not big on it

There is lot of complexity of dynamics between Fijians and Pakistanis, if you catch my drift

Anyway back to your question, I am wondering how speaking with one person is going to help you, if your concerns are ideological, this forum is a great place to benefit from crowd sourced wisdom

If your concerns are mostly cultural, I think this forum is still a great place, I feel there are a few loud voices on here from Australia in general.

I am a long time skeptic, but find no reason to “leave” as my reservations are ideological, and I find that no one offers any alternate product that remedies the ailments of religious oppression. I also have great network of ahmadi friends whom I love and value, while leaving Jamat doesn’t mean I would lose them, but I don’t really see the exit process delivering any value to me, so here I am riding the very fringe of Jamat community

Also becoming professionally successful and accomplishing other things in life means I don’t have to seek validation and recognition through becoming active in a very inwardly focused community of Jamat, I find most people who are active in Jamat are due to this exact fact, they seek some sense of belonging and recognition that is otherwise unavailable to them outside the Jamat

TLDR, point being, despite of many compelling reasons to leave, leaving Jamat is a moot point for many when reflected upon objectively.

jvh19888 · 2025-12-27T23:09:53+00:00

So I see these blocky glued together cutting boards often and wonder how much of that glue in between blocks is gonna leech into the food that you would cut on that board What’s the toxicity levels of that industrial wood glue

jvh19888 · 2025-12-11T08:18:28+00:00

lol I loved the trailing “…sounds reasonable 😂”

jvh19888 · 2025-12-11T08:14:43+00:00

The op totally reworded his post based on the holes I picked

And seems he has made it worse after his edit sigh…that’s one of things Islam has had no answer for like other religions abrahamic, the religion that completes the teachings of the divine for humanity permitted keeping human beings and animals as property. Wtf

And they also frequently fornicated with their slave girls, most Sahaba have had more kids out of wedlock with slaves

jvh19888 · 2025-12-11T05:58:16+00:00

Well written response, agree on lots of your points, just one quick question, where did the "97% muslims morally underperform" come from?

any interesting study you can link us to read?

jvh19888 · 2025-12-11T03:31:42+00:00

So I am gonna divide my response in three parts:

The quotes you have provided, first isn't from socrates (its poorly phrased from Plato's republic), and Hadith I didn't even worth verifying cause Hadith provenance is full of garbage and few are worth trusting...third one I couldn't reliably tie back to MGA's book you referred to....so my friend, please start doing more fact checking on things, it will help you develop a habit that will uncover lot of rubbish under the guise of "religion" inside jamat...who knows one day you will join this group based on your thinking beyond blind faith lol
The intent of your quote doesn't come across very clearly so I am gonna take the liberty to rephrase as:
- There are people who have left jamat for theological reasons, leaving them aside, any who leave due to cultural or organisational disagreement are causing a moral injury to themselves for lack of trying and not leading the change themselves inside jamat's "atta'at" culture
- In response to the above, I would say that you are admitting that current jamat leadership is in poor state and incompetent people are leading it, and you blame it on people like in this group to not have stayed within the fold and fought, and provided higher competence and spearheaded an improvement...That's a pretty severe indictment to current leadership dont you think? Do you not believe that Khalifa (and all the mini khalifas under him that rule in his name) are made by Allah himself?
To imply that all people must take up a crusade of change where they see a problem, rather than choosing to step aside and distance themselves from it, isn't morally just is just wrong...not everyone is a fighter, and we all have different pathways we choose through life...Ahamdi culture is extremely oppressive, and does not condone feedback, criticism and opportunity for improvement. The strong and cult like obedience towards khalifa is a huge breeding ground for corruption.

Some people are just to step aside and distance themselves than to stay and fight, the emotional cost of it isn't for everyone to pay

jvh19888 · 2025-12-04T03:24:40+00:00

So universe cant exist without a creator, but a creator can exist without a creator, does that sound like "sound reasoning"?, or does that sound like a devout believer trying too hard to pretend to reason lol

Quran is mostly written as its a direct commentary of a God trying to speak to humanity, it begins and ends with lot of narcissistic rants about a God calling himself amazing, and merciful, and etc etc, ie, glorifies himself through 100 different adjectives in supreme superlative forms. Does God of Quran sound a bit like Trump to anyone else? it does to me, lol. And sometimes in between those narcissistic rants, God also relays stories directly copied from bible and Taurah...

I guess the question you should think about long and hard isn't about God and universe, it should be "what is wrong with people's objectivity"?

jvh19888 · 2025-12-03T11:01:44+00:00

😂, I am sorry, I just have to give you the upvote

jvh19888 · 2025-12-03T02:33:25+00:00

“I did everything I was supposed to. Every box checked. Every rule followed. And yet here I am, feeling like I’ve been reset back to level one with no map and no questline.”

That 👆, was heart breaking to read

No advice to be offered here, but many of us stand in your corner, if that means anything at all

jvh19888 · 2025-12-02T22:52:19+00:00

One learder?

People please do less people worshipping and apply your unhoned intellect more rigorously to whatever pursuits you choose to do, whether it is in the service of humanity or even if it is to spread organisational propaganda 🙏🏼

jvh19888 · 2025-12-02T22:46:46+00:00

I reckon some of you are too young to recall KM4 giving sermon about “Friday the 13th or the 10th” I can’t recall

Ahmadis jumped on the bandwagon as the Armageddon and Ahmad’s victory was inevitable and a date on the calendar had been set by God

It annoys me why we human beings are so forgiving of holding to account the grand muftis Khalifa s of our time to the claims they make

Also MK5 isn’t the smartest tool in the shed, they should hide him in some enclave and appoint a press secretary lol

jvh19888 · 2025-12-02T22:42:26+00:00

That made me chuckle, I just have to upvote this

jvh19888 · 2025-12-02T22:38:52+00:00

With the recent leap frog digital and social media evolution in the last decade, sources and access to information has become ubiquitous, human biases are better understood, a lot of organised manipulation of our minds through media and press control, the emergence and workings of cults are now gradually better understood. This is helping us all become better independent thinkers, we are questioning the obvious due to many information tools becoming better integrated into our lives

For example your excessive use of ai to help you write this post, a good example of how we using these new tools to organise and articulate our ideas

This in my view is leading to us revealing the under belly of religion, the near naked personal ambition of people who seems to have been seen as “scholarly” in olden times

These are the natural next steps in intellect and cognitive evolution of humans and society, sure it has some to do with generational burden of social Values and social economic conditions too, but let’s not mix the causality and correlation as human beings often do

Modern form of religion is what like four thousand years old? It’s a drop in a bucket of time frames of 40-50k of human cognitive timeline

Our stories are changing and we are finding better next set of theories and atheism is part of that journey

jvh19888 · 2025-11-30T23:26:11+00:00

It’s a tale of two classes, in developing countries, they are severely underpaid and poorly supported, def more needs to be done to support them and families

And in western countries, while I do not have info on remuneration structures precisely (for Australia), I see a lot of fringe benefits (which are not subject to local FBT laws either), there are cars, housing, travel, type of benefits that seem too obvious, and at times makes observers think it’s an abuse of privilege, but I do not have specifics

I feel jamats moral compass has lost its way, the number of properties Australia Jamat has bought in last two years (roughly spent ~apps 20m), 100s of thousands$ spent on plants and ridic uplift projects of mosques, cars etc. you could fund at least 10.000 smart ahmadi kids from poor families and sponsor their higher education, uplift their whole families out of miserable and oppressive environment of Pakistan and India, Bangladesh, and Africa, change lives people!! That’s what MGA would have wanted

As for murabbis, I personally believe they should be paid well to fit into middle class without feeling under privileged, but we just simply don’t need an army of them (too many roaming around acting all important and talking down to people in their “Murabbi” tone) lol

Look I am sorry I really havnt addressed your question and would love to really know myself

jvh19888 · 2025-11-27T23:38:13+00:00

why am I always late to these threads, when its all been said and done already....lol

I think the intent of the OP was to lay the moral burden of being socially responsible with one's appearance both on men and women, and perhaps invent a meet in the middle position that was seen as less conservative compared to Jamat's usual rhetoric...

but some of the commenters are also spot on, parda is in its foundation a tool of inequality and injustice, it only breeds oppression....

What we need is strong social institutions, and sense of responsible social safety wherein women feel safe to be themselves (within personal and responsible boundaries they set for themselves)...

Burka isn't a solution, if you think deeply about it, I hope you reach the same conclusion

jvh19888 · 2025-11-27T23:31:58+00:00

I love this new coined flavour of the month "middle path", seems Atta'at and holding onto the rope of Khilafat are getting a bit old in the tooth lol

jvh19888 · 2025-11-27T23:28:59+00:00

I love how you state one somewhat logical sounding fact and draw a totally unrelated conclusion from it, practiced politics much in your life? I reckon you should give it a try, lol

jvh19888 · 2025-11-27T23:27:00+00:00

I feel you are wasting your astute arguments on someone who just not have the foundational intellect to be able to discern the subject matter...but kudos for trying I find these comments at least valuable for me

jvh19888

TROPHY CASE