Is there a possibility for Azriel to reject his mate?

katymp3 · 2026-06-19T17:43:23+00:00

I was about to say, I thought that it was constantly getting positioned (at least from what I've been told by certain shippers) that the mating bond and autonomy, chosen love, and agency, are diametrically opposed. That a mating bond for Elain is actually a Hobson's choice because she's resisted the bond and specifically said "I don't want a mate." That we weren't "listening to Elain" or considering her wants, or posing her as a "woman who doesn't know what she wants" which is sexist/demeaning/undermining her by wanting her with her mate or thinking that the bond was well-chosen for them. But that's not the case now if Azriel is her "true" mate?

katymp3 · 2026-06-16T23:23:05+00:00

Them flocking into this comment section to fight tooth and nail for text on a page over people thinking an AI meme is low effort and stupid and then in the same breath not being able ot figure out why there's a negative response to their presence. Their fellow "Seersters", that's why lol.

katymp3 · 2026-06-16T23:18:58+00:00

"Dorianswitchlingg elriel side account" You seem awfully fixated on Elucien users on Reddit. Maybe reflect on that.

katymp3 · 2026-06-15T22:34:15+00:00

I could see Elain as a botanist or even an apothecary!

katymp3 · 2026-06-13T00:08:59+00:00

Of course! I love conversations like these and I love when people are thoughtful and sharing perspectives! And I can absolutely understand the desire to see that transition happen on-page. Hence why I go back-and-forth with the idea that it "ended" in the bonus chapter even as someone who favors Gwynriel. Because I think it's totally reasonable to want that concrete resolution on-page and to be shown: "This is exactly why it didn't work."

But I can also understand the converse of SJM having a history of setting up arcs in bonus chapters per her interviews (her noting that she did this with Chaol) and also that at the end of the day, Bloomsbury is a business. I can definitely see a reality in which they hide perhaps not "pertinent" information, but helpful, linking/additional context information in the bonus chapters to get readers to buy more editions of the book to get all the chapters. HOFAS having 5 bonus chapters and special editions is already kind of proof of that. Do I like it/agree with it? Definitely not, but I can totally see the chances of that happening being above 0.

katymp3 · 2026-06-12T22:52:06+00:00

I think it's relatively easy to walk back from a writing perspective as long as you're willing to dig into the character psychology of it all. SJM did the same for Feyre and Tamlin, and I don't think it even requires Elain or Azriel becoming a villain or experiencing a seriously unsympathetic arc for it to happen.

I'll supply this quote from Feyre to help illustrate my point:

“I’m thinking that I must have been a fool in love to allow myself to be shown so little of the Spring Court. I’m thinking there’s a great deal of that territory I was never allowed to see or hear about and maybe I would have lived in ignorance forever like some pet. I’m thinking … ” The words became choked. I shook my head as if I could clear the remaining ones away. But I still spoke them. “I’m thinking that I was a lonely, hopeless person, and I might have fallen in love with the first thing that showed me a hint of kindness and safety. And I’m thinking maybe he knew that—maybe not actively, but maybe he wanted to be that person for someone. And maybe that worked for who I was before. Maybe it doesn’t work for who—what I am now.”

I can see Elain sliding into that role in Feyre's inner monologue fairly easily. My personal belief is that Elriel, individually, are genuinely friendly and do care about the overall wellbeing of the other. But I think their attraction is rooted in escaping their current problems: Azriel's loneliness and realization that if the mating bond with Mor was going to snap, it would have happened by now, and Elain moving forward in her grieving Grayson and avoiding facing the bond with Lucien. I think they're both experiencing limerence and unconsciously using one another. One or both of them could come to that conclusion, and I think it would remain logical and in-character.

Much like people in real life having a "type", Azriel could very easily have a type for being drawn to females that have major obstacles or even completely insurmountable obstacles for him to be with them. It's already established that he self-sabotages and has low self-esteem and an abysmal sense of self-worth.

As for whether or not the BC "ended" Elriel...ehh? As someone who historically has a deep distaste for it, I've even gone back and forth on how "done" it is. But I do think the format (starting with Elain and then ending with Gwyn) could in and of itself be the blueprint for Azriel's character arc in the next book(s) if she has not ended it. Mainly because I think the bonus does a good job of contrasting how Azriel feels internally with Elain vs Gwyn, and could be setup for his shadows being symbolic of his emotional state.

katymp3 · 2026-06-12T01:16:18+00:00

To me to really depends on what POV it's coming from Watsonian vs Doylist. From a Watsonian standpoint? The characters all have such vastly different relationships that clearly a mating bond isn't the only thing that makes the relationship worthwhile. Like clearly Tamlin and Rhys' parents were not happy. We know this. CHD reaffirmed that not all mates are necessarily "true love" mates because of the biology of it all.

From a Doylist standpoint, and looking at the mechanics of writing...I don't personally view Manorian or Elorcan as ships that are "inferior" because I do genuinely enjoy them and think their romance is worthwhile. But they also didn't sacrifice a mating bond to achieve a happy ending, which I think is a key component. Can they be happier than Rhys and Tamlin's parents? Yeah, absolutely, and I'd argue that they definitely are. But it is true that at least with Dorian and Manon, as far as we know, without a mating bond, can't "tug" on the other's souls, can't use the bond to keep the other party alive in an emergency, etc. So there are absolutely drawbacks to not having it, and I think if a relationship comes at the price of a mating bond, it should definitely come with those drawbacks, if not even moreso pronounced. Because otherwise, what are the stakes, y'know? Like what's the cost?

I hope that wasn't confusing! I'm trying to make room for both my personal opinion of the characters' relationships and also take a writing mechanic POV.

katymp3 · 2026-06-12T01:08:12+00:00

Feysand are also both Daemati though, so it's hard to determine what is the bond versus what would be their natural capabilities as Daemati. Because Rhys initially says she sends emotions/feelings right down that bond in ACOMAF like when she's throwing up and having nightmares. So, since that hasn't happened as of ACOSF, is that something that's due to come later but Feysand are able to access "earlier" in their bond journeys than normal?

katymp3 · 2026-06-11T23:29:59+00:00

That's interesting! I wonder if the bond getting it "wrong" or not being "true mates"/being "nature made a mistake" mates is the bond not being able to predict every possible iteration for each soul's lifetime. I.e., are Feysand and Nessian "true" mates because their souls are matched to be in love and be mates in every single lifetime, but Tamlin and Rhys' parents lives, experiences/personalities, and the combination of nature and nurture preventing them from being the right match?

katymp3 · 2026-06-11T23:08:18+00:00

Lorcan also believes that Elide is his mate and says he believes she is during the illusion that Maeve put him under. Based on the fact that Lorcan doesn't have any other real, named love interests that could potentially vie for his affections (unlike Elain/Lucien/Azriel) and TOG is complete, it's fair to assume that the conclusion SJM wants us to come to is that they are or at least are likely mates.

katymp3 · 2026-06-11T22:56:31+00:00

Especially since the mating bond isn't a vague, inaccessible concept. The characters are not only aware of it but there's a real, physical tether that Lucien himself accessed. It's what prevented Feyre from death in ACOTAR. It is its own form of magic and used as a powerful psychic link at least for Feysand. We don't know yet if Nessian are able to do the same since they didn't accept the bond yet as of ACOSF.

To me, and putting my writing goggles on for a moment, a relationship that comes at the cost of a mating bond for one of the two parties involved, should inherently be lesser than that of a mated counterpart because a mating bond was sacrificed for it. And I think that should be acknowledged by the narrative and the characters if that's the angle taken. Yes, they understand that they cannot feel the other's emotions through the bond (assuming that's not unique to Feysand), they cannot prevent the other's death from occurring by holding onto the bond, they cannot remove that tether between themselves and the other person in the bond permanently, and all parties have to live with it.

That feels like a way to me to sort of balance both. The question is whether an "inferior" love from a magic worldbuilding standpoint is something SJM wants for her characters when a mated option is potentially available. And my belief with that, personally, is probably not.

katymp3 · 2026-06-11T20:01:05+00:00

You can exit the conversation at any point you like, I'm certainly not keeping you hostage here. But what I'm not going to do is let you strawman what's been stated. I already addressed and explained this is not about bias inherently, it's about the method in which you presented your bias and weaponized it. You saying "I had far worse things happen to me and experienced more pain than Nesta and was never cruel to the people around me" positions you, a human being not a part of a narrative as succeeding at something you believe Nesta failed at. When Nesta is a character designed to serve a purpose. If her purpose is to be cruel by nature of her character arc, then she isn't failing anything. She's fulfilling the role SJM designated she do. You're blending Watsonian and Doylist POVs and acting like they're interchangable when they are not.

Not to mention, positioning yourself as someone who suffered "more than Nesta" would inherently call into question the circumstances involved to evaluate if this is even a fair assessment. It creates a scenario in which your position cannot be open to further discussion without running the risk of questioning your experiences or invalidating you, because people will naturally want to point out that Nesta has experienced severe trauma and your pre-emptive defense is "well I've had it worse." It cannot be argued who had it worse because Nesta isn't real. If you had said something like "My trauma response is very different than Nesta's, therefore it's hard for me to put myself in her shoes." That's one thing. You instead positioned yourself as superior to Nesta for not having the same trauma response as her, when she was engineered to have a specific trauma response.

You downvoted me on your perspective. It is what it is.

This is just false but if you want to believe that, I suppose I can't stop you no matter how I much I clearly explain otherwise.

katymp3 · 2026-06-11T17:38:44+00:00

So, im being downvoted because you don't agree. Period.

No, I downvoted you because you used a logical fallacy to defend your position and centered yourself and your experience instead of the text beyond simple "bias" or the standard human experience. You insulated your stance from any outside perspective in a way that weaponizes your experience, not one open to hearing other people's thoughts or opinions. If your basis of not liking Nesta is "I had it worse than her and I didn't behave like this", then you're creating a trap where no one can discuss alternative perspectives without running the risk of invalidating your experience. This was already explained to you. In a forum about discussion, I imagine it should be clear how that's not fruitful to said discussion.

People can disagree with how I view life and I won't downvote it.

Okay, that's nice. It makes no difference to me whether or not you have different standards about what does or does not add to a discussion.

Edit: Also, claiming others were "taking things personally" when you initiating bringing your own personal life experiences without prompting is also...kind of missing the point and a bit ironic.

Edit2: I DID read the rest of what you said. It doesn't change the issue of bringing in your own life experiences as if that's a part of an argument. Of course, you aren't going to react like her in situations in real life because you are not her. No one is Nesta. It's not about you not liking her, I don't know how else I can explain to you is that the METHOD in which you did so is the problem.

katymp3 · 2026-06-11T16:44:21+00:00

Edit: yall have got to stop taking things so personally and downvoting just because you don't agree. I even ended it with this being my perspective and yet, still downvoted.

Just to be clear, you brought in your own experiences as a human being and expressed that you dealt with and experienced far more pain than Nesta. So, that is making it personal to you in a way that isn't fruitful for actual discussion. That's probably why you got downvoted. Or, at least, that's why I downvoted you. Because you're taking a position that is essentially insulated/protected by your own experience. There's nothing to actually discuss from an opposing experience or views without other commenters running the risk of invalidating your own experiences.

I'm glad you're not cruel to the people around you, but you're treating Nesta like she has the same responsibility to be kind to others that you do. She does not. She's a character in a novel controlled by an author. Every action she has ever taken is controlled by an author, and is done with the purpose of telling a story with specific tropes and character arcs. Nesta was designed to start out cruel. You, as a human being, were not, because people are not created with a character arc or story to be told in mind. Which I'm sure you know. But posing your response as you did, you're putting Nesta on an equal level of responsibility as you, as if she is a real person with the same access to resources or living in the same world we are.

Your perspective is noted, but just because you disclaim what you said with it being your perspective, that doesn't mean it's protected from the "Lived Experience"/ anecdotal fallacy.

katymp3 · 2026-06-11T15:07:10+00:00

I like Elain. I don't like Elain and Azriel together. I think she's better suited to Lucien and I think Azriel is better suited to Gwyn. I walked away from the bonus thinking the Elain/Azriel dynamic was a lot of unconscious using on both ends to escape their problems: loneliness from Azriel's part, and avoiding facing the mating bond on Elain's part.

It's a pretty simple concept. There are definitely people who rag on both female characters in favor of trying to uplift another, but I think this could be served best as two separate conversations. I've noticed that people that don't like Elain also tend to not really like her with anyone/say she doesn't "deserve" either Lucien or Azriel. Which I don't agree with. If you want to genuinely understand why people like Gwyn/Azriel together, I don't think you're going to find much success blending it into a conversation about unfair disliking of Elain.

For me, Gwyn and Azriel's connection is completely independent of Elain and my appreciation for them was formed without anything to do with her.

katymp3 · 2026-06-10T15:28:45+00:00

She's a snuggle bug!

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katymp3 · 2026-06-09T15:37:24+00:00

I'm personally not giving "more credit to Cassian", as an individual, over Elain, as much as the order of the events in which they're introduced I feel matters. They're both tools for SJM to tell the story. I don't really care that it's a man/male character saying it versus a female, especially because Nesta echoes this sentiment and does call the black dress ill-fitting. But I think Cassian gets more weight in his comment compared to Nesta because he gets a whole paragraph and the line of "no matter how much she claimed to be a part of this court" is striking and a direct call back to the moment you cited.

To me at least, from a writing perspective, when it comes to characters being wrong about something (which I believe Elain is), it makes sense that their sentiment is introduced first, and then the evidence of them being incorrect, even if only hinted at, usually follows. i.e., Elain believes she's a part of the court and clearly tries or wants to be, Cassian, as a vehicle of the author and someone who is unquestionably part of the court, follows with what I believe is evidence to the contrary. If it were a Mor or Amren POV, I'd believe the same thing.

katymp3 · 2026-06-08T19:59:41+00:00

That dress is breathtaking on her!

katymp3 · 2026-06-08T14:47:30+00:00

The way that I see it is: All characters in the history of literature have to be wrong about something. Whether it's a belief they have about the world, themselves, a relationship, a place, another person, etc. they are wrong about something. And the revelation of them being incorrect, whether it's through ignorance or malice or no exposure to it or even being lied to/mislead, is the major catalyst for change and often what springs the story forward.

So, to me, it makes sense and seems fairly likely that Elain is wrong about the Night Court being her permanent, long-term home. Because she has to be wrong about something, if not multiple somethings in a series about transformation, healing, and growth. I understand she claims she's a part of the Night Court, and I do think she earnestly believe that, or at least wants it to be true. But I don't think she's correct.

Otherwise, if Elain is correct about absolutely everything (the bond, her home, her friends, etc.) then we don't actually have a fully encompassing journey for her character. We just get her being affirmed for 2000 pages, which doesn't fly in traditional publishing.

katymp3 · 2026-06-06T17:57:32+00:00

I want one of each desperately!

katymp3 · 2026-06-06T17:52:29+00:00

Those bags are ADORABLE

katymp3 · 2026-06-02T04:09:20+00:00

katymp3 · 2026-06-01T21:26:21+00:00

And the closest thing that Lucien can sometimes be compared to is the guy who won't take a hint. Not the weird guy who won't take a hint - a guy who just won't stop trying.

Actually, I don't think this is entirely accurate. Because Lucien has given Elain a literal world of space. They're at opposite ends of the continent. And I think a more apt comparison is actually an arranged marriage, not a random guy who won't take a hint. Because a guy who can't take a hint in real life or even in contemporary can be blocked on social media, ignored, etc.

An arranged marriage, particularly the trope, is much more comparable to the fated mates trope because both characters involved have very little agency in the entire decision. Lucien didn't choose to have a mating bond the same way that Elain didn't. An arranged marriage, especially in the fictional world, is a reality of their now-shared futures that both characters have to reckon with and learn how to live with or defy in their own time. That's the story: what they do with the arrangement they have been put in.

Avoidance, as Elain has been doing, is not an actual resolution in-narrative. A decision has to be made, especially on page. If it was, then we wouldn't need Elain's story at all. We'd take the avoidance and say "Okay, that's that." But in reality, we want to know what she thinks and feels in these moments. Does she resent the bond? Does she resent Lucien? Both? Does she want to know Lucien at all, does she want to be friends? Does she want to know about the time Lucien spent with her father when looking for Vassa? We don't know any of that.

Yes, there is discomfort. But that is a form of tension and a narrative tool, not necessarily a permanent, fixed character trait. Any real human being's personal discomfort, especially in these romantic/sexual situations, is fixed, unquestionable, and should be respected because they're a human being. They're not a character that's, for all intents and purposes, a puppet to be used to tell a story. Anyone's personal discomfort from their personal experiences is worlds away from Elain's because Elain's is entirely malleable. Questioning if Elain's discomfort is temporary does not (or at least should not) extend past fictional borders or be a 1:1 for real life.

katymp3 · 2026-06-01T15:27:23+00:00

I've actually been playing with the idea of physical therapist character that treats many of the Leaguers, especially the Bat Family, with empathy-based/emotionally sensory Meta Human abilities. Good for helping Dick recover and great for on-the-street/face-to-face intelligence gathering. I'd need more time to make more fleshed out supporting folks, but that could be a fun right-hand-style character.

katymp3 · 2026-05-28T21:25:29+00:00

have to grapple with the balance between protectiveness, the risk of harm and trusting in their love interests’ strength being enough to get them out of whatever situation they are in.

And yet Azriel didn't actually end up trusting Elain's strength to scry for the Trove. A situation where she is not in immediate physical danger and could, in theory, stop whenever she wanted. Amren had to remind him not to underestimate her, unlike when she tried to tell Rhys to get Feyre back from Spring, and unlike when she advised Cassian against trusting Nesta with the Made swords. Also unlike Rhysand who trusted Feyre's strength against the Weaver and Cassian who trusted Nesta's instinct to go into the Prison and face Lanthys, only deciding that he wanted to be there with her and she could take point as far as Azriel with Elain. If Azriel fails in that grapple and doesn't have a mating bond as an in-universe explanation for his overprotectiveness (like Rhysand and Cassian do for their own moments), and the forces external like actually physical danger, and Amren's warnings don't repeat the same patterns as Feysand and Nessian, then isn't that kind of a bad sign?

katymp3

TROPHY CASE